Pistol Carbines (CX4), Ruger mini 14 or AK47?

[BLADEMDA]

Hey guys,

I am getting bored with handguns and want something bigger but not huge. I am looking for an effective killing weapon at 150-200 feet. Here is my criteria in order:

1. Reliability- If it Jams I don't want it. I am seeking HK or Glock reliability in this weapon.

2. Portability- Please stick to rifles/guns which weigh less than 7 pounds. Also, 16 inch barrel length.

3. Quality- Prefer a nice weapon made of high quality parts like a chrome barrel.

4. Ammo- Needs to shoot killing ammo at 150 feet with deadly accuracy.
Price of AMMO not a concern but QUANTITY of ammo is. I want at least 20 rounds per click or mag.

5. Price- Should be around $1,000 or less without scope or accessories


Please remember items 1-5 when posting on this topic. Thanks.

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[BLADEMDA]

I am going to thank BuffDoc for taking time to steer me towards the Beretta CX4 with scope ( C More?) or similar optical piece. BuffDoc owns this weapon and likes it.

I came across the Ruger Mini 14 and several AK47s for under $1,000. In fact, you can get an AK47 and a scope for $1,000. I am leaning towards the Beretta CX4 per BuffDoc and then an AK47 for X mas.😀

Thanks Again BuffDoc,

Blade

 

[BLADEMDA]

http://www.gunblast.com/Thureon9mm.htm

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[FiremedicMike]

I have a light and a flip up rear iron sight now that aren't pictured.. Honestly I think the AR platform is ideal for all of your parameters. Sure the 7.62 cartridge is bigger, but the AK platform is not nearly as refined and has long range accuracy issues. The mini-14 costs just as much as the AR, shoots the same round, and has far less in terms of solid accessories.

I can go more in depth on some of your options if you like, but the above is a good starting point.. Pictured is

Smith and Wesson M&P15
YHM - 4 rail
EOTech 512.a65
Tangodown Battlegrip (I would get the magpul miad grip next time, and plan on replacing that soon)
Magpul MOE adjustable stock
Tangodown vertical foregrip

 

[FiremedicMike]

Pistol caliber carbines do not have reliable ballistics at the range you are looking for, just food for thought. They are fantastic for SWAT/Military type upclose room clearance when available in full auto because they generally have a shorter barrel and less recoil so you can unload your mag into the bad-guy, for a long range gun I would steer away from the pistol caliber carbines for sure.

Ammo is cheaper, but I reload so it really doesn't bother me. Buy a gun for it's function now, or you will regret it later.

 

[BADMD]

To 150 feet, the pistol caliber carbines are probably fine, but they are still low velocity rounds at the very edge of their capabilities. Guns like the CX4 are not "Glock" reliable. I know my n=1, but at the last 3 gun I went to, the guy with the CX4 had quite a few failures to feed and failures to eject. I don't know what kind of ammo he was using and that may have been a factor.

The Mini-14, while reliable, has a reputation for inaccuracy. Even with such fancy after market parts as the Accu-strut and other similar features, there are complaints about the accuracy. Ruger claims that the tooling was just used up and they swear that the new ones are more accurate.

AKs are AKs. They are reliable although less accurate. If you want to use mags with a capacity greater than 10, you need to make sure it is 922r compliant. It isn't hard to get/make one compliant, but you do have to make sure it has it has enough US made parts. Also, much of the available ammo is steel core and not all ranges are friendly to that. The AKs can be a bit heavy (9lbs +) if you don't swap out to plastic furniture.

Seriously consider an AR-15 style. They are very accurate and reliable. They do need to be cleaned, but most of the time that really just means pulling the bolt carrier group and give it a quick scrub and oil. There are lots of aftermarket parts and you can make it exactly what you want. FYI, a chromed barrel will likely decrease your accuracy.

There are lightened uppers and lowers available for the ARs. There is an AR10 style on the market, chambered in .308 Win, that weighs 7.9 lbs. That will give you range out to 500 plus yards.

 

[Hernandez]

If yiu want pistol caliber then you can find a http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=29&Page_Number=1&Index_Seq=361&Home_Page=colt 9mm ar for $1000 if you look but why not just get an ar in 5.56mm? You can easily find a colt 6920'for $1100 but I've seen them less than $1000 if you look

I would not get a mini14 or the beretta.

 

[pgg]

I agree with everyone above.

I would not get a pistol caliber carbine. I would not get a mini-14 ... nothing wrong with them, my brother loaned me one for a few months last year, but ARs are superior. As soon as CA issued my AW permit I gave back his mini-14 and retrieved my AR15 from the free state where he lives.

Don't undersell the 5.56 round ... the M855 ammo our guys are chronically complaining about in Afghanistan & Iraq is far inferior to good defensive ammunition like Hornady 5.56 TAP. They're using ammo designed to pierce light body armor at distance; you want something to shoot unarmored people close up.

If you insist on a bigger round, there are good options in the 7.62/.308 AR arena, though they won't meet criteria #5. I have a 16" Armalite AR10 carbine which is my favorite gun. It's a touch on the heavy side but well balanced and very portable.

The AK is an AK ... inexpensive, reliable, mass-producable, low end rifles. There's a reason the wealthy free world has standardized on the AR platform.

 

[PharmaTope]

check out the FS2000

it is really light (made of plastic) easy to break down, the shells roll out the front, comes with a scope (not the greatest). it has two barrels to help with the air compression to decrease recoil. very nice gun. check out some youtube videos of it.

you can prob get it cheap off someone too with attachments.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Pistol caliber carbines do not have reliable ballistics at the range you are looking for, just food for thought. They are fantastic for SWAT/Military type upclose room clearance when available in full auto because they generally have a shorter barrel and less recoil so you can unload your mag into the bad-guy, for a long range gun I would steer away from the pistol caliber carbines for sure.

Ammo is cheaper, but I reload so it really doesn't bother me. Buy a gun for it's function now, or you will regret it later.

Thank You,

Good Advice.

Any opinions about C more Optics for an AR15 which you shoot at 100 yards? C more has very good prices on thrir optics. Yes, I know about the 8/6/4 dot sizes and I bet you are going to tell me I need a 4 or less at 100 yards.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I agree with everyone above.

I would not get a pistol caliber carbine. I would not get a mini-14 ... nothing wrong with them, my brother loaned me one for a few months last year, but ARs are superior. As soon as CA issued my AW permit I gave back his mini-14 and retrieved my AR15 from the free state where he lives.

Don't undersell the 5.56 round ... the M855 ammo our guys are chronically complaining about in Afghanistan & Iraq is far inferior to good defensive ammunition like Hornady 5.56 TAP. They're using ammo designed to pierce light body armor at distance; you want something to shoot unarmored people close up.

If you insist on a bigger round, there are good options in the 7.62/.308 AR arena, though they won't meet criteria #5. I have a 16" Armalite AR10 carbine which is my favorite gun. It's a touch on the heavy side but well balanced and very portable.

The AK is an AK ... inexpensive, reliable, mass-producable, low end rifles. There's a reason the wealthy free world has standardized on the AR platform.

AK 47s are less than $400 in some shops (new) and are still scary weapons at less than 50 yards. Plus, they are dead reliable.

AR15s are better rifles for most situations but they cost 2-3 times as much as an AK47. When social unrest comes to the USA that $400 AK47 would be a great investment compared to an AR15 which few shoot regulary (don't mean the hard core crowd like PGG).

 

[BLADEMDA]

If yiu want pistol caliber then you can find a http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/pr...ory=29&Page_Number=1&Index_Seq=361&Home_Page=colt 9mm ar for $1000 if you look but why not just get an ar in 5.56mm? You can easily find a colt 6920'for $1100 but I've seen them less than $1000 if you look

I would not get a mini14 or the beretta.

You are correct. Tell me about Bushmaster and Stag. Good AR15s?

What about an M1 or a Springfield M1A? What if the budget is $1600?
Any AR10s less than 7 pounds?

Bullet size doesn't matter. In fact, the 223 Remington would be fine provided the AR doesn't jam.

 

[BLADEMDA]

check out the FS2000

it is really light (made of plastic) easy to break down, the shells roll out the front, comes with a scope (not the greatest). it has two barrels to help with the air compression to decrease recoil. very nice gun. check out some youtube videos of it.

you can prob get it cheap off someone too with attachments.

$2100 new. The scope shouldn't be crappy at that price. I do like the gun must say it is indeed the small weapon of choice for me. What about the scope? Why would one want magnification for a weapon designed to shoot at less than 100 yards?

 

[BLADEMDA]

check out the FS2000

it is really light (made of plastic) easy to break down, the shells roll out the front, comes with a scope (not the greatest). it has two barrels to help with the air compression to decrease recoil. very nice gun. check out some youtube videos of it.

you can prob get it cheap off someone too with attachments.

http://www.gunblast.com/FS2000.htm

How much would you pay for a lightly used FS2000? $1500?

 

[BLADEMDA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ZqTroZKlc&feature=related

I must say this weapon looks impressive. Could be a future purchase

 

[pgg]

It's true that AKs can be found cheap. They're reliable. They'll eat up cheap dirty steel cased Russian surplus ammo that smells like burning cats when you fire it. And I agree that for someone on a budget a $400 rifle + $1000 in ammo to practice with is better than a $1200 rifle and $200 in ammo (which is I think what you were getting at).

But I'm not quite clear on what your objective here is. On one hand you mention boredom with pistols and an interest in something bigger - and as a hobby item your $1000 budget makes sense. But you also seem to be looking ahead with an eye toward civil unrest and the distasteful but real need to maybe shoot somebody with it. If that's the case you, as someone with an anesthesiologist's income, really ought to be looking at $1200+ rifles, $600+ optics, and high quality ammunition (with cheaper stuff for practice).

 

[pgg]

Any AR10s less than 7 pounds?

Bullet size doesn't matter. In fact, the 223 Remington would be fine provided the AR doesn't jam.

Armalite's basic 16" AR10 flat top carbine is listed at 9 pounds unloaded. My Colt 6920 AR15 + optic is about 6 pounds unloaded. I don't think you're going to find much in .308 at 7 pounds. An M1A will run about 10 pounds.

ARs won't jam if you clean them occasionally and run them wet. They're not the jam-o-matics of the Vietnam era (which used dirty ball powder, light lube, and NO cleaning ... in direct contradiction to its designers' instructions).

 

[FiremedicMike]

check out the FS2000

it is really light (made of plastic) easy to break down, the shells roll out the front, comes with a scope (not the greatest). it has two barrels to help with the air compression to decrease recoil. very nice gun. check out some youtube videos of it.

you can prob get it cheap off someone too with attachments.

Be careful with the fs2000.. the 5.7 round was sold as being the end all be all self defense round and fell very short. At closer ranges it will penetrate body armor as advertised, but primarily due to its shape. I haven't done a ton of research on the round so I can't provide you with data tables, but I have heard it said the 5.7 is about the same as a 22 minimag....

Thank You,

Good Advice.

Any opinions about C more Optics for an AR15 which you shoot at 100 yards? C more has very good prices on thrir optics. Yes, I know about the 8/6/4 dot sizes and I bet you are going to tell me I need a 4 or less at 100 yards.

An optic is a one time purchase. It will stay with you even when you get a new gun, and imho, its the most important piece of your weapon. For my patrol rifle quals we had to go out to 75yds and put 12 rounds center mass in 15 seconds (really more intimidating than difficult) and I found it easiest to just pop up my rear sight and look through it to my front post. For your parameters id go with an eotech and a good set of back up iron sights (that's what I use)

 

[BLADEMDA]

It's true that AKs can be found cheap. They're reliable. They'll eat up cheap dirty steel cased Russian surplus ammo that smells like burning cats when you fire it. And I agree that for someone on a budget a $400 rifle + $1000 in ammo to practice with is better than a $1200 rifle and $200 in ammo (which is I think what you were getting at).

But I'm not quite clear on what your objective here is. On one hand you mention boredom with pistols and an interest in something bigger - and as a hobby item your $1000 budget makes sense. But you also seem to be looking ahead with an eye toward civil unrest and the distasteful but real need to maybe shoot somebody with it. If that's the case you, as someone with an anesthesiologist's income, really ought to be looking at $1200+ rifles, $600+ optics, and high quality ammunition (with cheaper stuff for practice).

PGG,

I found plenty of nice AR15s for under $1,000. This list includes Bushmaster and Stag. Both are excellent ARs. Yes, I need to buy an AR15 and will do so. The 223 Remington will work just fine than you. Now, do you recommend piston AR15s? What barrel lemgth? Is 16 inches okay?

Also, I found good optics for under $400. FireMedic has an optic on his AR15 for around $400 new.

 

[BLADEMDA]

EOTech - 512.A65 Holo Sight - AA Battery

EOTech - 512.A65 Holo Sight - AA Battery

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EOTech - 512.A65 Holo Sight - AA Battery
The HOLOgraphic Weapon Sight (HWS) by EOTech is the 1st electro-optic sighting system to apply holographic technology to small and medium-sized weapon platforms. When used in Close Quarters Battle (CQB) environments, this revolutionary weapon optic delivers amazing speed and accuracy gains, uncompromising use of peripheral vision, leaves no muzzle-side optical signature and is packaged in a compact, durable unit.
Now deployed with elite Special Forces and SWAT teams the world over, the HWS delivers vastly improved shooting performance for all levels of operators.
The HWS mounts to any universal Picatinny mounting rail (supports standard Weaver dovetail) with an integral mounting platform for adaptation to user preferred eye relief. The EOTech Holographic Sightcan interface to any standard issue M16 or M4 variant in either a fixed carry handle or flattop receiver, and with no modifications to the weapon. The M16 and M4 mounting platforms provide for the functionally critical aspect of co-witnessing the iron sights within the HWS's Heads Up Display while maintaining the operator's critical check weld position.

Specification of EOTech - 512.A65 Holo Sight - AA Battery
OpticsTransmission holography - 100% parallaxMagnification1x unlimited eye releifLength/Width/Height5 x 1.8 x 2.25Field of View @ 100yds (ft)3.8 - 3.1Weight (oz)11.5Temperature-20 to 150F (operating); -40 to 160F (storage)SealingWaterproof (submersible) & FogproofColor/FinishNon-reflective black with hard coat finishAdjustment (per click)0.5" at 100 yardsAdjustment Range+/- 40 MOA travelMount1" Weaver Dovetail / Picatinny rail (Mil-Spec 1913)Return to ZeroRepeatable to 1 MOA after remountingMOA1Warranty2 YearsHeads-Up Display WindowOptics SurfacesAnti-glare and scratch resistant coatingsWindow Dimensions1.20" x 0.85" (30 x 23 mm)Window MaterialShatterproof laminate (3/16" thick)Field of View @ 100 yards30 yards (28m) at a 4" eye reliefStandard reticle65 MOA ring with quadrant ticks with a 1 MOA Aiming dotReticle Contrast Ratio28,000:1 brightest to lowestElectricalPower Source2 x "AA" alkaline batteriesBattery Life350 hours at normal setting 12Brightness Settings20 settings with scrolling featureAuto Battery Check IndicatorFlashing reticle upon startup if batteries are at 20% of battery lifeAuto ShutdownAt 8 hours - programmable to 4 hours

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[BLADEMDA]

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Smith & Wesson M&P15 Semiautomatic Rifles ModelMfg.#CaliberBarrel Overall
Length
(in.)Approximate
Weight
(lbs.)*StockSKU#QtyPriceM&P15
(Gas Operated)8110005.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.746-Position Telescopic20025843 $1,099.99
not available online M&P15A
(Gas Operated)8110025.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.56-Position Telescopic02813581 $1,099.99
not available online M&P15OR8110035.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.56-Position CAR02813578 Reg: $969.99
Sale: $899.99
not available online M&P15OR-MOE1507475.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.5Magul MOE
Telescopic02989176 $999.99
not available online M&P15T
(Gas Operated)8110015.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.856-Position Telescopic20025844 $1,499.99
not available online M&P15VTAC8110125.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.56-Position Collapsible
VLTOR ModStock02813580 $1,769.99
not available online M&P15X8110085.56mm NATO/.22316" 4140 Steel;
Hard-Coat Black Anodized32-356.56-Position CAR02813579 $1,199.99
not available online *Weight does

 

[BLADEMDA]

Be careful with the fs2000.. the 5.7 round was sold as being the end all be all self defense round and fell very short. At closer ranges it will penetrate body armor as advertised, but primarily due to its shape. I haven't done a ton of research on the round so I can't provide you with data tables, but I have heard it said the 5.7 is about the same as a 22 minimag....



An optic is a one time purchase. It will stay with you even when you get a new gun, and imho, its the most important piece of your weapon. For my patrol rifle quals we had to go out to 75yds and put 12 rounds center mass in 15 seconds (really more intimidating than difficult) and I found it easiest to just pop up my rear sight and look through it to my front post. For your parameters id go with an eotech and a good set of back up iron sights (that's what I use)

223 Rem (5.56x45mm NATO)
17.4" barrel length
29.1" overall length
7.6 lbs empty


The FS2000 shoots the NATO Round just like the AR15s. Why is that not acceptable for "social work" as my friend on gunblast calls it?

Chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO/223 Remington, the FN FS2000 Standard comes equipped with a 1.6x optical sighting package. The FS2000 is gas-operated with a rotating bolt lockup for added reliability and greater accuracy. Its 17.44" cold hammer-forged MIL-SPEC barrel is fitted with a muzzle brake, while fired cases are ejected through a forward port away from the operator. The matte black polymer thumbhole stock is fully-ambidextrous. Models with 10- or 30-round detachable box magazines (DBM) are available

 

[Hernandez]

You are correct. Tell me about Bushmaster and Stag. Good AR15s?

What about an M1 or a Springfield M1A? What if the budget is $1600?
Any AR10s less than 7 pounds?

Bullet size doesn't matter. In fact, the 223 Remington would be fine provided the AR doesn't jam.

You can get a m1 garand from the cmp at a good price and lots of ammo less than a grand. But it isn't less than 7pounds.

The springer m1a's are hit or miss from what everyone says. For m1a you'll should spend money to get the hammer forged receiver which costs money.

Stag had a pretty good reputation for a while, I dnt know if that changed wth the massive increase in sales since obama took office.

Bushmaster gets a bad rep online but my experience hasn't been bad. Mainly I've seen some extraction issues that go away with a few hundred rounds or a stronger extractor spring.

But given the prices of ar's today I'd just spend the little more to get the colt.

You can't get a shorter barrel than 16in unless its the 14.5 with a permanently pinned flash hider to make it 16"which will do most everything a 20" will do.

 

[BLADEMDA]

223 Rem (5.56x45mm NATO)
17.4" barrel length
29.1" overall length
7.6 lbs empty


The FS2000 shoots the NATO Round just like the AR15s. Why is that not acceptable for "social work" as my friend on gunblast calls it?

Chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO/223 Remington, the FN FS2000 Standard comes equipped with a 1.6x optical sighting package. The FS2000 is gas-operated with a rotating bolt lockup for added reliability and greater accuracy. Its 17.44" cold hammer-forged MIL-SPEC barrel is fitted with a muzzle brake, while fired cases are ejected through a forward port away from the operator. The matte black polymer thumbhole stock is fully-ambidextrous. Models with 10- or 30-round detachable box magazines (DBM) are available

The NATO 5.56 round used by US military in the M16's & M4's are designed to tumble once they strike soft tissue. This tumbling will cause the round to not always follow a straight line & will cause significant internal damage to soft tissue & any organs that it encounters.
Source(s):

15 yrs US Army Military Police


To: RichardEdward
Military sniping has almost always employed .30 cal rifles and very recently has gone to .50 cal in some applications. These rounds give longer reach (much longer for the .50) than the modern .22 Nato and Russian service rifle rounds.

The .223 is a very deadly cartridge within about 200yds or so, as is the Russian .22 used in the AK-74 which the Afgans call the "poison bullet." Given that the .30s are louder and slightly more work to shoot, and that the objective of the shooter(s) is to inspire terror and not to make a humane kill, I would say that they made an excellent choice with the .223.

 

[BLADEMDA]

You can get a m1 garand from the cmp at a good price and lots of ammo less than a grand. But it isn't less than 7pounds.

The springer m1a's are hit or miss from what everyone says. For m1a you'll should spend money to get the hammer forged receiver which costs money.

Stag had a pretty good reputation for a while, I dnt know if that changed wth the massive increase in sales since obama took office.

Bushmaster gets a bad rep online but my experience hasn't been bad. Mainly I've seen some extraction issues that go away with a few hundred rounds or a stronger extractor spring.

But given the prices of ar's today I'd just spend the little more to get the colt.

You can't get a shorter barrel than 16in unless its the 14.5 with a permanently pinned flash hider to make it 16"which will do most everything a 20" will do.

Thanks,

Colt
Stag
Bushmaster
Smith and Wesson

I found a brand new Stag for under $800. Bushmaster $950. Colt will run much more.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Colt AR6721
AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine

PRICE: 1,250.00

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Quantity:

The AR-15A3 is our most popular patrol & tactical rifle.

Barrel = 16.1" heavy barrel with 1 in 9" rifling twist for flexibility in ammo selection and Front barrel lug for easy mounting of accessories.
Buttstock= Telescopic four position.
Effective Range= 600M
Handle= Removable
Length = 32" retracted, 35" extended.
Sights = Adjustable front and adjustable target rear
Weight= 7 LB Without Magazine
Length = retracted, 35" extended

With an easily removable carry handle, the flat top upper receiver allows for easy mounting of optical, night vision and other tactical sighting systems. The tactical carbine is the answer to all the requirements of modern law enforcement.

 

[BLADEMDA]

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Colt Rifles/Shotguns


Product ID: 164138
UPC: 098289023230
MFG ID: LE6940
Colt Advanced Law Enforcement Carbine, LE6940, Black, 16.1", 5.56 NATO/223 Remington

 

[BLADEMDA]

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Gas Piston Conversion Kit
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• 

AR-15/M16 DROP-IN GAS PISTON CONVERSION KIT

• Mfr:CMMG
• Price:$450.99
• Makes Rifle Run Cooler, Cleaner, Smoother For Improved Function, Reduced Recoil & Less Frequent Cleaning

Drop-in conversion kit contains everything you need to replace the standard gas system on your AR-15 carbine with a reliable, positive cycling direct impingement gas piston system. Updates your AR to the type of operating system used on advanced weapons like the FN SCAR, Heckler & Koch G36, and HK416, as well as the highly reliable, classic FAL and AK-series rifles. Makes your gun run cooler, smoother, and more reliability, with less wear and easier maintenance. Because the gas no longer vents inside the receiver, fouling and carbon buildup are greatly reduced, making maintenance easier with less frequent disassembly of the receiver for cleaning. Less fouling and lower operating temperatures mean substantially reduced wear on bolt, carrier, and receiver interior for fewer malfunctions caused by worn parts. The cushioning effect of the piston reduces felt recoil to help you stay on target for fast, more accurate follow-up shots. “Straight-line” design of the replacement gas block further ensures reliable operation by venting gas pressure directly on the operating rod. Rod transmits the force directly to a lug on the top side of the one-piece bolt carrier redesigned specifically to work with the piston system. Carrier and lug are machined from a solid billet of steel to eliminate breakage that can occur with a standard carrier modified for use with a gas piston system. Requires no permanent alterations to barrel or upper receiver. You can remove the piston system any time and reinstall the original parts

 

[BLADEMDA]

Can anyone comment on Gas piston AR15s? Would you recommend such a model? These usually cost more than the standard AR15. Are they worth it? Is the cleaning of the AR15 much easier?

 

[BLADEMDA]

See also: M16 Future Replacement
On November 13, 2008, the U.S. Army hosted an invitation-only Industry Day regarding a potential future replacement for the M4 carbine. Nineteen companies provided displays and briefings for military officials. The weapons displayed included the Barrett REC7 PDW, Bushmaster ACR, FN SCAR, Heckler & Koch HK416, Heckler & Koch XM8, LWRC M6A4, Robinson Arms XCR, SIG 556, as well as Colt's own improved version of the M4, the Colt ACC-M (Advanced Colt Carbine-Monolithic). The goal of the Industry Day was to provide officials with knowledge as to the current state of the art, which will assist the writing of a formal requirements document.[6]
On July 1, 2009, the U.S. Army took complete ownership of the M4 design.[7] This will allow companies besides Colt to compete with their own M4 designs. The Army is planning on fielding the last of its M4 requirement in 2010.[7]
On October 30, 2009, Army weapons officials proposed a series of changes to the M4 to Congress. Requested changes include an electronic round counter that records the number of shots fired, a heavier barrel, and replacing the direct impingement system with a gas piston system.[8]
[edit] Design


M4 with M68 Close Combat Optic and AN/PEQ-4


The M4/M4A1 5.56mm carbine is a gas-operated, air-cooled, magazine-fed, selective fire, shoulder-fired weapon with a telescoping stock. A shortened variant of the M16A2 rifle with a 14.5 in (368 mm) barrel, the M4 provides the individual soldier operating in close quarters the capability to engage targets at extended range with accurate, lethal fire. The original M4 has semi-automatic and three-round burst fire modes, while the M4A1 has "semi" and "full auto", with no three-round burst. The M4 has over 80% commonality with the M16A2 rifle and was intended to replace the .45 ACP M3 submachine guns and selected M9 pistols and M16 rifle series with most Army units (this plan was thought to be changed with the development of the XM29 OICW and the XM8 carbine. However, both projects were canceled). The M4 is also capable of mounting an M203 grenade launcher, the M203A1 with a 9-inch barrel as opposed to the standard 12-inch barrel of the M203 used on the M16 series of rifle.
Some features of the M4 and M4A1 compared to a full-length M16-series rifle include:

• Compact size
• Shortened barrel 14.5 in (368 mm)
• Telescoping buttstock

However, there have been some criticisms of the carbine, such as lower muzzle velocities and louder report due to the shorter barrel, additional stress on parts because of the shorter gas system, and a tendency to overheat faster than the M16A2

 

[Hernandez]

Can anyone comment on Gas piston AR15s? Would you recommend such a model? These usually cost more than the standard AR15. Are they worth it? Is the cleaning of the AR15 much easier?

They aren't worth the cost. And many of the drop ins are temperamental. If you were to go that route you should buy a complete piston upper to put on a lower.

The post about 223 made to tumble is complete crap, Martin fackler is the ballistics guru and has lts of articles and een posts on some other message boards.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the colt will hold it's value while the others won't. The link I posted is sold out of the $950 colt 6920s are sod out but I see them for 1150 easily

 

[BLADEMDA]

FN Scar vs. LWRC? Comments? The Army is moving towards gas pistons as the gun is easier to clean and less likely to jam from being dirty.

 

[Hernandez]

FN Scar vs. LWRC? Comments? The Army is moving towards gas pistons as the gun is easier to clean and less likely to jam from being dirty.

Socom canceled the scar-light http://www.defensereview.com/socom-...m-will-the-fn-mk-17-scar-h-scar-heavy-survive

There isn't $500-1000 worth of benefit to get a piston driven ar.

 

[FiremedicMike]

223 Rem (5.56x45mm NATO)
17.4" barrel length
29.1" overall length
7.6 lbs empty


The FS2000 shoots the NATO Round just like the AR15s. Why is that not acceptable for "social work" as my friend on gunblast calls it?

Chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO/223 Remington, the FN FS2000 Standard comes equipped with a 1.6x optical sighting package. The FS2000 is gas-operated with a rotating bolt lockup for added reliability and greater accuracy. Its 17.44" cold hammer-forged MIL-SPEC barrel is fitted with a muzzle brake, while fired cases are ejected through a forward port away from the operator. The matte black polymer thumbhole stock is fully-ambidextrous. Models with 10- or 30-round detachable box magazines (DBM) are available

You are correct, I was thinking about their other little bullpup with the topfed mag..

Can anyone comment on Gas piston AR15s? Would you recommend such a model? These usually cost more than the standard AR15. Are they worth it? Is the cleaning of the AR15 much easier?

Gas piston rifles are good for people who put tens of thousands of rounds through their rifles. The theory being at high round counts, the direct gas impingement system will wear down the bolt carrier. I've also been told that you can tinker with the spring tension on the piston system, which would be good for reloaders and precision shooters who wish to dial in their recoil based on their powder charge. Imho, for the average shooter the piston system is wasted money.

 

[BADMD]

Can anyone comment on Gas piston AR15s? Would you recommend such a model? These usually cost more than the standard AR15. Are they worth it? Is the cleaning of the AR15 much easier?

I'm with Hernandez. Instead of trying to kludge a drop in piston kit, just get a Rugar 556 or a POF AR 15. A guy a work with has a POF and it is a pretty good shooter. Reportedly you lose some accuracy when moving from the direct impingment gas system to the piston. You also can get some tilt on the bolt-carrier group, causing premature wear.

As for all the other rifles, they all have reported benefits. The SCAR was supposed to be the greatest thing ever, however SOCOM has cancelled their contract. HK has their 416. Bushmaster has the ACR, etc. They are supposed to be more reliable, but for most users, they don't offer much over the standard AR15.

If money were no object, I'd try to buy genuine Colt. The A3 configuration is probably what you are looking for. I think CMMG probably offers the most bang for the buck. I've seen a few M&P15 running in 3 Gun and they have had no faults.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I'm with Hernandez. Instead of trying to kludge a drop in piston kit, just get a Rugar 556 or a POF AR 15. A guy a work with has a POF and it is a pretty good shooter. Reportedly you lose some accuracy when moving from the direct impingment gas system to the piston. You also can get some tilt on the bolt, causing premature wear.

As for all the other rifles, they all have reported benefits. The SCAR was supposed to be the greatest thing ever, however SOCOM has cancelled their contract. HK has their 416. Bushmaster has the ACR, etc. They are supposed to be more reliable, but for most users, they don't offer much over the standard AR15.

If money were no object, I'd try to buy genuine Colt. The A3 configuration is probably what you are looking for. I think CMMG probably offers the most bang for the buck. I've seen a few M&P15 running in 3 Gun and they have had no faults.

Police Forums says the LCRW is a good rifle. It has the piston system. But, you are right I don't need it.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Originally Posted by glocknut
Got it. I guess changing a design results in unintended consequences?

mike
gn
yes but they are correctable and minor. only problem a buffer like that isnt on the market yet.... like i said give it some time and the AR platform will be as reliable as an AK and as accurate as an AR.

I say forget them both and go for a FN SCAR or even an H&K G36! I have shot a G36K and it was AWSOME!!! The police force in Kingsland GA use them and I went to the range i was fortunate to put a few mags down range!

__________________
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

 

[Hernandez]

Police Forums says the LCRW is a good rifle. It has the piston system. But, you are right I don't need it.

I had thought LCRW went out of business?

 

[BLADEMDA]

Well,

No pistol Carbines for me. A waste of money. Here is my new shopping list:

1. AK-47 (cheap and fairly good close range anti-mob gun)
2. AR15- Will get a standard AR15 (still deciding upon make and model)
3. Shotgun- Mossberg 500 or Remington 870? Opinions? Do I need a Shotgun?

Thanks,
Blade

 

[BADMD]

Police Forums says the LCRW is a good rifle. It has the piston system. But, you are right I don't need it.

I don't know it this will meet you needs, but the Kel-tec SU-16 might be a consideration. I haven't played with or held one.

They are fairly light, 16 inch, and with gas piston operation. I can't talk about accuracy.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I had thought LCRW went out of business?

Sorry, I didn't know that fact. Most comments posts were from late 2008/2009. I am going to get a STANDARD AR15 from Colt, Bushmaster, Stag or Smith and Wesson. As for resale I won't sell it. I will keep it and just get another.😀🙂

 

[BLADEMDA]

1. AK-47 (why not? Cheap, reliable and big gullets😉)
2. AR-15 (because the Ak-47 is a 50 yard rifle at best)
3. Shotgun- need bigger ammo for real close range. Mossberg 500?

Still, that FS2000 is calling to me. It is so me.

 

[Hernandez]

2. AR-15 (because the Ak-47 is a 50 yard rifle at best)

Things to Keep in mind, I would recommend a A4/Flattop/M4 (which ever designation you wish to call it) with a detachable carry handle that way it makes your optic choices much easier to attach. 2) if You want an adjustable stock, buy it up front, it's cheaper that way and try to get a version with a mil-spec tube (which is limited to last time I looked, Colt/LMT/CMT?) 3) there are 3 different chambers for 2.23/5.56, the 2.23 rem/2.23 wylde/and 5.56 nato) you'll want 5.56 nato or a wylde chamber, but the nato is less ammo sensitive

If I had the money, I'd buy a complete LMT or Colt Lower then buy this upper

 

[PharmaTope]

$2100 new. The scope shouldn't be crappy at that price. I do like the gun must say it is indeed the small weapon of choice for me. What about the scope? Why would one want magnification for a weapon designed to shoot at less than 100 yards?

the magnification on the gun wasnt amazing, but it is a good gun. it depends on what you are comfortable with. it is a lot of fun. when you take it out to the range you get a lot of looks like what is that? a weapon from the future?

 

[PharmaTope]

1. AK-47 (why not? Cheap, reliable and big gullets😉)
2. AR-15 (because the Ak-47 is a 50 yard rifle at best)
3. Shotgun- need bigger ammo for real close range. Mossberg 500?

Still, that FS2000 is calling to me. It is so me.

pick up a used one. a lot of people buy guns but with the economy they need the money so they selling the fs2000 cheap. my buddy has 2 of them got them 1600 each with travel case, scopes, accessories.

the only thing that i dont like about the gun is the fact that there is no rail attachments (for the most part) in the front like you can do with an AR15. I like those AR's with monolithic rails loaded up.

 

[Dirtball]

Olympic K23P .223 can be CCW with correct shoulder rig/ briefcase....... 30 rds 5.56 greentip at the ready, able to penetrate car doors. All standard AR-15 parts vs the old Carbon-15 .223....

 

[BLADEMDA]

Olympic K23P .223 can be CCW with correct shoulder rig/ briefcase....... 30 rds 5.56 greentip at the ready, able to penetrate car doors. All standard AR-15 parts vs the old Carbon-15 .223....

K23P-A3-TC - Tactical Pistol

[ SKU: K23P-A3-TC ]

View Full-Size Image​

Our newest AR-15 pistol model featuring a 6.5" barrel, no buttstock and a padded receiver extension tube. The A3-TC variant adds a flat top upper with detachable carry handle and FIRSH quad rail free floating handguard. $1,188.20 MSRP

• Must be logged in with Dealer account to order.

 

[BLADEMDA]

So, which is better deal?

Used FS 2000 at $1400 or new Olympic Arm K23P-A3-TC at $950?