plan of action for applications

[PizzaButt]

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Hello,

I am a non-traditional applicant, 30, married, and was not a psych major. I am now trying to get all my pre-reqs done and have just signed up for fall classes. As I have been out of school for 8 years, I don't have an advisor to help me with this stuff so I wondered if I could run my plan of action by you guys for feedback. I am only applying to PhD programs, though not sure about clinical or counseling. I just decided to change careers this past spring. I would like to apply this winter to get in fall of '08. Here are my stats, etc.

Previous career:
JD degree and legal-related stuff

GPA:
undergrad: 3.6--Ivy League school

Related experience:
currently RA in psych lab, working on a publication

Pre-reqs:
stats--done

GRE:
not done yet but planning to take Oct. 1

Letters of Rec:
planning to get 1 from my PI from my lab, 1 from maybe the clinical volunteer supervisor when I get that position, and 1 from my last employer (is this good enough or should I do something differently).

Clinical experience:
need to find something like a volunteer position but I'm trying to narrow down my research focus first so I can find something in line with that since my RA job has nothing to do with the type of research I want to do.

What else should I do to be a competitive applicant? Do I have any chance whatsoever? I am planning to apply to about 20 schools. Mostly in the range of 3-5 on the research scale in the Insider's Guide. My ultimate career goal is to be a clinical psychologist in private practice, specializing in the areas of eating disorders, body image, depression, etc. I don't want to do any teaching or research, or very minimal.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I know I've said this before in response to your posts, but I have to stress again that if you say you don't want anything to do with research, your chances of getting into a PhD program are hovering around zero. The way the field is going, it's a MUST in the PhD world to at least want a little something to do with research.

 

[JockNerd]

I'm a bit concerned about two of those letters. You don't have the volunteer position yet? The supervisor will *not* have known you for long enough to write a letter for you if you intend on applying this cycle. Who's the employer? Employer refs are a little dicey--most of the recommendations I've heard are only to use them when they're in direct line with your research or clinical interests.

Do you know any other profs who might write you a letter? Anyone you did an honours seminar class with?

Your other qualifications sound excellent! Rock the GREs and make sure someone at the schools you apply to does stuff with ED and I think you're in quite good shape (I'd look to find better letter-writers in one or two cases though).


Are you applying for funded PhD programs? If so, I'll mention (though you probabaly know already) that you're likely going to have to do one of either research or teaching through grad school. Raynees is right (like usual) about research. Are you willing to spend time working on research if it's up your alley (ED treatment, genesis, whatever)?

 

[atis]

i don't want to derail the thread but JockNerd, how long do you think is a sufficient amount of time for a PI or a referee to know you such that they can write you a letter of rec? Will schools frown on or not take seriously a LOR from someone you've known for 6 months or fewer? Will it look...terrible?

And if you're at a large lab where you're unlikely to have face time with the PI? (although I've heard most people just work under a grad student or supervisor who ends up writing the LOR and then the PI just signs off on it....)


(I'm in a similar position to the OP and your comment made me very very nervous! Eep! )

 

[JockNerd]

i don't want to derail the thread but JockNerd, how long do you think is a sufficient amount of time for a PI or a referee to know you such that they can write you a letter of rec? Will schools frown on or not take seriously a LOR from someone you've known for 6 months or fewer? Will it look...terrible?

And if you're at a large lab where you're unlikely to have face time with the PI? (although I've heard most people just work under a grad student or supervisor who ends up writing the LOR and then the PI just signs off on it....)

(I'm in a similar position to the OP and your comment made me very very nervous! Eep! )

I'm sure it doesn't look terrible. I think it's fairly common to have known most of your referrees only a short time.

I never worked in a really *big* lab, so I don't really know what it's like getting face-time with the prof. My urge is to answer that yes, most people don't get time. And most people also don't get into clinical psych, at least on on their first try. But, really, I know plenty of people who didn't meet their honours thesis advisor until Aug. or Sept. of the year they applied. I wouldn't be worried about it. Most people are in the same boat--the thing is, you don't really want to be like most people when you apply.

My concern about the time they've known you is really... what can the person even say? Your thesis advisor might be able to write a really strong letter after knowing you for only a few months, but only if you've already taken the initiative to get on proposals and data collection and such. If you're still waiting for your thesis' ethics to come back in November, you're kind of out of luck. There's just nothing he or she can really say.

The volunteer coordinator stood out *to me* as being problematic. I volunteered at a Peer drop-in crisis centre at my university, and the coordinator became my thesis advisor in my second year in the program. She wrote me an absolutely gorgeous letter when I applied to grad school. But, looking back, at 4 months (sept-dec) in, I really don't think there's a lot that she could have said about me. I might have done one or two neat things, but she would have had no way of knowing if that was standard for me or not.

Letters of ref do count for a lot. Most of the surveys I've seen say they're right up there with GPA and GRE in the most important factors. I'd say be sure they rock! 🙂

 

[blindblonde]

Like everyone else, the only glaring issue is the LoRs. The one from the PI sounds good, and perhaps last employer (or the one that knows you the best) should be fine. I would suggest, if at all possible, to also get an academic professor in there from either your law school or undergrad school. Even though it may not be in psychology, the professor has a better indication of academic expectations of Ph.D. programs. If you can use the Ivy League pull with the LoR, I think you would be in better shape.

I think I have mentioned this to you in previous posts before, but it is hard to predict your "chances" per say. There are a lot of unknown and non-traditional variables to your case. This is not necessarily a bad thing--but it makes it hard for us to guess. It sounds like you have a good game plan and are taking the right steps for a strong application. With good GREs, a solid statement, and help from lady luck, you should be right on your way. ;D

 

[danzgymn86]

One thing...I am confused...your only pre-requisite is stats?! So that means you are taking research methods, abnormal, and 2 other classes this fall? (at least?) Those 4 grades won't be in by the time you apply. Maybe send an updated transcript after?
I'm not even sure you have enough pre-requisites. While you don't have to major in psych, you need to have at least 15-18 credits of Psych classes by the time you apply. Stats is NOT psych credits. It's a prereq. That's all.
Psych credits you will need:
Abnormal
Research methods
3-4 other courses... (perhaps: Personality, Tests and Measurements, Social, something else.)

Also, you need a defined research interest before you apply. Now you are saying eating disorders, depression, etc. 2 or so weeks ago, you were saying intelligence, giftedness, savants, etc...

 

[psychRA]

Are you absolutely sure that you want to apply for this cycle? I worry that you're trying to do too much in too short a period of time. I'm not saying that you won't get in this round, but I do think that your application is going to be a lot stronger a year from now. I got in to a bunch of programs, but it took me a solid 2 years of working in research, publishing, taking the GRE, establishing relationships with PIs at work, and networking at conferences. If I had tried to apply a year earlier than I did, I don't think I would have been accepted. Applying is incredibly draining and time consuming. You don't want to have to do it twice.

Some benefits to putting it off a year:
1. You will have spent more time in your lab and at your future volunteer position, so your LOR will be more detailed.
2. The publication(s) you're working on now will hopefully be in press. Publishing takes a lot of time, and you should remember that "manuscript in preparation" doesn't look as good as "in press" on your vita.
3. You'll be able to take more classes, and spread them out so that you're not taking them all at once. Plus, you will actually have some grades at the time you apply. Programs get hundreds of applications, and they're basically looking for a reason to cut yours. Not having grades for your psych classes will make it that much easier for them to toss yours. Having a spectacular personal statement, CV, and LORS will not help you if your application gets cut in the first round because your transcript wasn't ready before the deadline.
4. You'll have time to really study for the GRE, and to retake if necessary. Oct. 1 is cutting it VERY close.

One more thing - I think having 1 LOR from a former employer is fine. It's different if you're applying straight out of undergrad, but once you've been out of school for a few years like we have, it doesn't matter as much. You're showing that you've been successful outside of academia, which is important.

 

[JockNerd]

I don't really agree with psychRA on waiting a year. There's not an application in the world that wouldn't be strengthened by a year of waiting and working on relevant things. I know waiting a year is often a recommendation made on this board, but it seems to me that that's really suggestion is really made more often for the people who have virtually no research experience at all. The OP isn't *really* missing anything that would be a huge red flag, in my opinion--no lagging GPA, no complete lack of research experience. The only thing that concerned me was that second letter and, after danz mentioned it, whether the OP has taken things like abnormal. If he or she rocks the GRE and finds a good second letter-writer, I think the app is quite competitive.

Plus, ED is a fairly common topic at universities. The OP will have a pretty big range of potential schools and profs to work with.

 

[PizzaButt]

One thing...I am confused...your only pre-requisite is stats?! So that means you are taking research methods, abnormal, and 2 other classes this fall? (at least?) Those 4 grades won't be in by the time you apply. Maybe send an updated transcript after?
I'm not even sure you have enough pre-requisites. While you don't have to major in psych, you need to have at least 15-18 credits of Psych classes by the time you apply. Stats is NOT psych credits. It's a prereq. That's all.
Psych credits you will need:
Abnormal
Research methods
3-4 other courses... (perhaps: Personality, Tests and Measurements, Social, something else.)

Also, you need a defined research interest before you apply. Now you are saying eating disorders, depression, etc. 2 or so weeks ago, you were saying intelligence, giftedness, savants, etc...

Thank you everyone for all your suggestions. Thanks for your thoughts re: the LORs. Re: the one from the PI, I work one-on-one with that person, so it should be a strong letter. I'm not sure if the publication I'm working on will be published by the time I apply, but at least it will be in progress.

Re: the other two letters, I've been out of undergrad for 8 years, so I think finding a prof from there would be a problem. I do have a law school prof who I took a bunch of classes from and who knew me really well; I could ask him. My employer letter would be good. I'm not sure that a letter from my stats prof would be helpful, since I took it at a community college.

Ok, so now on to the topic of pre-reqs above. I took stats in the spring at a community college and will take abnormal and research methods this fall. However, due to financial reasons, I don't think I can take any more pre-reqs. I really can't afford to take out more loans to take a bunch of classes when I may not even get into clinical psych PhD. Being married I can't afford that financial strain right now, especailly since I make close to nothing as an RA. So I think two classes will be all I can take this fall. Will that be a problem? Some of the schools I am applying to have no pre-req requirements, others have a couple and I will meet some of them, but I figure I might as well go ahead and apply anyway.

As for the research aspect of PhD, I am interested in research and love my RA position now. I am excited about doing research in grad school, however, I just don't want to be involved in academia as a career. Of course I would not say that in interviews. But being a therapist is my ultimate career goal. I realize that perhaps PsyD programs might be a better option but I can't afford to go to a PsyD program. I can't afford to take out loans for 4-5 years. I already have my undergrad and law school loans plus my husband's. So PhD it is for me.

I am still trying to decide on a research focus, which is difficult given that I wasn't a psych major, and thus am just reading and doing informational interviews on my own, but I think that my ultimate career goal is working with young adults on a variety of issues, including eating disorders, body image, depression, etc. I think most of my interests fall into the social psych realm, but since I want to be a therapist I needed to find different interests. I have a diverse range of interests, and I am still exploring, however I know that I have to choose something as my research interest to focus on.

I really don't want to wait to apply next year--I'd like to see how things go this year, even though I understand that my application is not as strong as it could be given that I just decided to change careers this past spring. Hopefully, I'll get in somewhere--I am applying to 20 schools, and all of them are on the 3-6 range in the Insider's Guide (though I would prefer to be at a school with a more clinical focus, such as a 3-4).

If anyone can suggest specific schools that they know of that are much more clinical-based, please let me know. I've already heard about UVM, but my husband doesn't think he can get a job in Burlington, since it's such a small town.

 

[PizzaButt]

Also, why is an Oct. 1 GRE date cutting it close? I was actually thinking maybe Nov. 1 would be better. Why is this a problem?

 

[Quynh2007]

in all of this, because of your lack of psych courses, I might recommend taking the Psych GREs to make up for it, that way schools can see that you know the basics of psych, even if it isn't reflected in your coursework. Just pick up an intro psych book and you should be fine. They only offer the subject GRE like 3x a year, april, nov, dec, or something, so be sure to sign up for the next one which means you should try to take the regular GRE earlier so you don't have to worry about classes, applications, and both GREs.

 

[paramour]

Psych GRE is a good idea.

And, I also wouldn't recommend taking GRE's any later than October. It takes time for your scores to be reported to universities, and they might not get them on time. This is even without any problems that might arise with the score reporting, which happens on occasion to some unfortunate souls.

 

[blindblonde]

For many of us, the GRE takes a while to prepare and you want to have extra time in case you have issues on test day or want to improve your score. You also have to deal with the processing time of your entire score, including your writing section, and subsequently sending out your scores to all of your schools by your deadlines. I took my GRE this time last year and my second time in mid-October (although I wanted to take it in early October and had complications with my disability accommodations on that day). Additionally, you may have to drop certain schools in the case that your GRE is not high enough. It is just better to get that unknown variable of your application done as early as possible and remove that bit of stress.