Please Help Me

[Tristero]

Hello everyone...

I am going to be a first year med student at UMiami next year, and I decided I want to get my MBA after medical school. Biotechnology/Pharmaceuticals is the industry that I am shooting for. I want to go to a top 5 MBA program, with my ideal school being Wharton. My GPA is solid (3.79) but the problem is I have absolutely no relevant work experience and my undergrad degrees (also UM) are a BS in Bio and a BA in English Lit. Judging from my practice GMAt scores, I am pretty sure I can score 750+ in both categories, but I know work experience is huge, and I wnat to enter b-school directly after medical school.

So my question is, do you guys have any tips for me getting relevant work experience during med school/during the summers? Consulting companies in the summer maybe? I have a solid MCAT score, and I have a very good LSAT score, which I read on another thread arefactors they take into consideration. How about during medical school? I want to be able to work but have enough time to study and get good grades. How much are top B schools willing to look past the work experience requirement for MD students?

I am really clueless, as I am just getting my foot in the door. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

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[mward04]

Hello everyone...

I am going to be a first year med student at UMiami next year, and I decided I want to get my MBA after medical school. Biotechnology/Pharmaceuticals is the industry that I am shooting for. I want to go to a top 5 MBA program, with my ideal school being Wharton. My GPA is solid (3.79) but the problem is I have absolutely no relevant work experience and my undergrad degrees (also UM) are a BS in Bio and a BA in English Lit. Judging from my practice GMAt scores, I am pretty sure I can score 750+ in both categories, but I know work experience is huge, and I wnat to enter b-school directly after medical school.

So my question is, do you guys have any tips for me getting relevant work experience during med school/during the summers? Consulting companies in the summer maybe? I have a solid MCAT score, and I have a very good LSAT score, which I read on another thread arefactors they take into consideration. How about during medical school? I want to be able to work but have enough time to study and get good grades. How much are top B schools willing to look past the work experience requirement for MD students?

I am really clueless, as I am just getting my foot in the door. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

First thing, have you looked at the previous posts on SDN and on MD-MBA.org? Second, do you plan on being a clinician/doing a residency or do you want to go straight into pharm?

Also, why do you feel that a top 5 MBA is necessary?

I think this will help everybody gauge their answers for you.

 

[Tristero]

Hi, thanks for the reply. I checked out some posts on SDN and I have read just about the entire MD-Mba site, but it seemed more tailored for MD/MBA program people than people heading ther after med school. I read about someone who got into Wharton straight from medical sschool, but that's all the info related to my situation I've seen on SDN thus far.

I am interested in top 5 business schools because I have heard the biotechnology industry is harder to break into unless you come from a well connected school. Also, Wharton has a MBA/Masters in Biotech program I am particularly interested in.

Your input is appreciated.

 

[mward04]

Hi, thanks for the reply. I checked out some posts on SDN and I have read just about the entire MD-Mba site, but it seemed more tailored for MD/MBA program people than people heading ther after med school. I read about someone who got into Wharton straight from medical sschool, but that's all the info related to my situation I've seen on SDN thus far.

I am interested in top 5 business schools because I have heard the biotechnology industry is harder to break into unless you come from a well connected school. Also, Wharton has a MBA/Masters in Biotech program I am particularly interested in.

Your input is appreciated.

You didn't answer about residency/practicing. Are you going to or are you just using the MD as a platform to get into biotech?

 

[Tristero]

Oh, sorry. I don't plan on completing residency, I want to use my MD as a platform to enter biotech. I've also checked out mbajungle for biotech-md/mba info.

 

[mward04]

Oh, sorry. I don't plan on completing residency, I want to use my MD as a platform to enter biotech. I've also checked out mbajungle for biotech-md/mba info.

No problem. Let me ask you this...and I know this is straying away from your question, and I apologize for this, but why are you going to subject yourself to 4 years of hell and $150K+ in loans ($37.6K x 4) for medical school?

 

[Tristero]

Medical school interests me, and I feel getting an MD (especially the wards part) helps in understanding the healthcare industry, especially aspects like product delivery. The scientific knowledge is appealing to me, and it provides me with a measure of security as I can be a practicing physician if for some reason the MBA route doesn't workout. Also, I am interested in finance, and if I decide to go into healthcare finance I thought an MD would be useful. I am lucky enough that I am havign my tuition paid for, so I don't have to worry about loans.

oh also--i was admitted to the 6-year HPME program here at UMiami, so the med route was planned from the beginning.

 

[mward04]

Medical school interests me, and I feel getting an MD (especially the wards part) helps in understanding the healthcare industry, especially aspects like product delivery. The scientific knowledge is appealing to me, and it provides me with a measure of security as I can be a practicing physician if for some reason the MBA route doesn't workout. Also, I am interested in finance, and if I decide to go into healthcare finance I thought an MD would be useful. I am lucky enough that I am havign my tuition paid for, so I don't have to worry about loans.

oh also--i was admitted to the 6-year HPME program here at UMiami, so the med route was planned from the beginning.

HPME=Health Policy Management...???

It sounds like you are an incredibly intelligent person and that you can pretty much do anything you want with your life. With that said, I don't know if med school necessarily sounds right for you. Yea, it's kind of nice to see what happens and to get the science education and you've got it for free, but I don't think you need a 4 or 6 year program to do this. If you want to get the education, okay, that's reasonable, but I honestly think that medical school will be a waste of your time. I think you could accomplish the same thing in an MS/MBA or an MPH/MBA program and you could do it in less time.

If you were going into health policy, going to med school could potentially persuade me on this, but if you're going into biotech, I definitely don't think you need med school.

I say, go out and get good work experience and in several years, come back and get your degrees. I know that this is not your initial question but you have to think long and hard about what you are going to get out of med school. After having been here for 3 years going on 4, I would not want to go into this field unless I absolutely loved it.

Those two little letters at the end of your name will not justify the years you will sacrifice for them.

Thoughts from everyone else?

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Once upon a time I was talking to my stock mentor and I mentioned that I was considering business over medicine. He told me not to do it. This was coming from a man that was easily had a net worth over the 100 million mark. In fact, both of his sons became doctors.

At the time, I didn't appreciate the good advice but I do now.

There is nothing like the MD. Don't be fooled. It may seem from this forum that a person simply graduates from a top 5 business school, and suddenly there are infinite riches waiting for them. However, this isn't true. As a few users have shown it will give you a starting advantage. However, that advantage can easily go away if you do not stay ahead.

In many business jobs, you will work harder than a resident with lesser pay (factoring in moonlighting). There is no 80 hour limit on your week. And at the end of the day, you can still get layed off. Plus, if you don't start your own business, you may end up kissing some serious tail to get yourself ahead.

Just as a reference, go to salary.com and look at some of the incomes opportunities for doctors. I routinely see opportunities in the 400 and 600K range for certain specialties. I've seen internal medicine doctors making 400K a year (with the help of NP's). In business, it is much harder to achieve this goal.

Place your MD above all else. Do nothing that compromises any of those opportunities. Finally, let the MBA enhance your MD. You will be happy with those decisions.

 

[mward04]

Once upon a time I was talking to my stock mentor and I mentioned that I was considering business over medicine. He told me not to do it. This was coming from a man that was easily had a net worth over the 100 million mark.

That's funny, I can't tell you the # of residents that told me it wasn't too late to quit Then again, they're residents, let's check back in a few years and see what they think.

Let me pose a question to the group:
Is an MD valuable in any industry without the training that accompanies it?

 

[Tristero]

so you consider residency critical in the business world?

i also think it's important to note that by the time I get out of medical school + residency, 10 years, the days of 400k+ doctors will likely be gone.

i'm not looking for easy money. i want to do something i enjoy, which i feel is entrepreneurship. granted, i do not have enough experience in that field, but my interest in biotechnology is strong, and i love business.

 

[mward04]

so you consider residency critical in the business world?

i also think it's important to note that by the time I get out of medical school + residency, 10 years, the days of 400k+ doctors will likely be gone.

i'm not looking for easy money. i want to do something i enjoy, which i feel is entrepreneurship. granted, i do not have enough experience in that field, but my interest in biotechnology is strong, and i love business.

Residency is definitely not critical to business. However, it gives you legitimacy as an MD. But is being a doctor (in name only) critical to doing Biotech? Not at all, especially if you are a doctor in name only.

I happen to agree with you about the 400K docs...at least in the fact that it will not be common place. The smart, entrepreneurial docs can do it though.

Let me ask you a question. What do you feel that you will gain from going to medical school only, that residency will not help you with?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. I hope it's not coming across that way and if it is, I apologize.

 

[Tristero]

You're not being argumentative at all. It just doesn't make muh sense for me to go through another 4-6 years of training in a certain specialty if I'm goign to be working in the business world. I would think that 2 years of hard sciences and 2 years wards would give me all the healthcare exposure I need. I agree that residency would probably give me even more benefit, but I guess I see it as even more overkill than anything else? How do you feel about it?

 

[mward04]

You're not being argumentative at all. It just doesn't make muh sense for me to go through another 4-6 years of training in a certain specialty if I'm goign to be working in the business world. I would think that 2 years of hard sciences and 2 years wards would give me all the healthcare exposure I need. I agree that residency would probably give me even more benefit, but I guess I see it as even more overkill than anything else? How do you feel about it?

Look at it this way:
Your way-4 years Med +2 years MBA =6 years

Another approach-5 year MD/MBA program + 1-3 years of training=6-8

The worst you can do is the # of years you were planning on doing anyway. Let me break it down for ya. Do a combined MD/MBA at Miami. They were already considering a dual degree program anyway and they've got a good b-school. The best? No, but very good. This will save you a year. Then, do at least one year of training, get your license and see medicine from a real perspective. Hopefully you'd do a full residency (3 year-Family, Medicine or 4 year-Pathology!!!) but that would be an option at that point. That way, you'd get some real experience under your belt. BTW, I think a path residency (4 years) would be perfect for going into Biotech. Could you imagine the synergy of a path residency and an MBA?

Okay, bottom line...if you have no expectations for clinical work in the future, I honestly think that you would be better off not doing med school. It's 4 years of your life you can't get back. And if you have any significant others, they are likely to shoot you.

Tell ya what, PM me, I've got a buddy who did his MD/MBA and did a year of path residency and decided to leave and go into VC in the bay area. If you'd like, I can put you in touch with him. He's been there and experienced what you are thinking about doing.

Also, I wanted to give you a couple of good websites to check out:
http://www.coloradobioengineering.org/
http://www.cobioscience.com/
http://www.atlantabiotechnetwork.org

Another possibility, contact some of the MD/MBAs involved with these organizations and see what they think. I know of another who would be great for you to speak with, let me know if you are interested.

 

[lowbudget]

I totally agree with mward here. Residency is not critical, but if you want people's respect in biotech/pharm, you need to do residency or get a PhD. You're not talking to a bunch of idiots here. The people who work in biopharm know the process in physician training. Really successful people have been successful academic attendings, clinical investigators, or well published scientists for years. If you talk to enough people in the business over a couple of (hard) drinks, you'll hear people talk about people and how some people have an MD but aren't "real doctors". So proceed cautiously before quitting halfway through training. There's an unspoken perception that non-residency trained MD's (without significant research contribution or practice experience) who end up doing business (and/or law) are "slimey" and are backdooring their way into the corporate world. Remember, when you walk around flexing that MD degree, you better be able to back it up. There are SOOO many stories about MD's and DO's who asked that their colleagues address them as "Doctor XYZ", only for word to get out that these guys couldn't save your life if you choked on a piece of steak or give advice on how to clip ingrown toe nails when you take clients out to eat. Word spreads real fast too... it would really suck to have that reputation. Just telling you how it is, some of y'all may disagree.

You don't need the MD to accel on the business end. But remember, in biotech/pharm business, employers would rather hire 1 bad ass business person and 1 bad ass physician/scientist than hire 1 mediocre MD/MBA. Usually there's too much money at stake to skimp on paying the right people to do the right job (we're talking about straight up Microeconomics 101 Comparative Advantage). That's true in industry, it's true in VC/PE, probably true in consulting... probably not so true in investment banking.

By the way, look real hard into the Masters in Biotech. They're basically science classes designed for the non-PhD.

If you're interested in Wharton (and I'm not an expert here), realize that the HCMG MBA is a separate application with different set of standards from the regular MBA, meaning that they understand the disparity in work experience in an MD student compared to an accountant. That said, make sure you get better info that what I can provide.

Lastly, before you make a decision as to where your life will head, make sure you do your research. If you want to know what MD/MBAs do in biotech/pharma land, hit the want ads and see what the market is and what the market is demanding.

If you're interested in health care finance, it's better to be a bad ass financial analyst. Time is better spent doing 4 years of working full time 100 hours a week doing securities analysis, option pricing, trading, budgeting, whatever than spending 4 years in med school just to "understand" the market. At the end of the day, your employer will be hiring you for your financial skills and not your industry knowledge. Remember, when it's 3 or 4 am, and you need to crank out that model because millions of dollars are riding on your ability to hone in on a target price that your team is going to negotiate 7 am on a conference call with London, you will be wishing you had spent 4 years devoted to finance than 4 years memorizing whether Cornyebacterium is gram positive or negative or whether a freaking chest xray is pleural effusion or atelectasis. Seriously. At that point in time, nobody will care that you can differentiate an aortic stenosis from tricuspid regurge with a stethescope. You can gain industry knowledge by working for firms with health care projects, but ultimately you will be responsible for cranking out the numbers if you're interested in health care finance. I will be very honest, these people are unapologetic about their expectations.

I feel bad laying it out like this, but this is my opinion on the subject. Hope there're no hard feelings.

 

[Tristero]

No hard feelings at all. That's exactly what I need to hear, because I don't know enough about what I'm getting into. I appreciate it.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

so you consider residency critical in the business world?

i also think it's important to note that by the time I get out of medical school + residency, 10 years, the days of 400k+ doctors will likely be gone.

i'm not looking for easy money. i want to do something i enjoy, which i feel is entrepreneurship. granted, i do not have enough experience in that field, but my interest in biotechnology is strong, and i love business.

I mentioned this same question to my investment mentor while he was alive. He laughed and told me not to worry about it. They have been saying that doctors were going to lose their pay since the 1960's.

Medicine does go through changes, but as Mike pointed out, people with a little business sense always find a way.

Look at family practice and IM. In the old days, I heard you could see 50 people a day and charting was joke. Then, the system went through changes in part to eliminate some of money making abuses. Now, even though pay has changed, you see doctors seeing over 50 people a day in some practices with NP's. Now, you even see some FP and IM doctors making in the 400K range! Some doctors even hire chiropractors to see accident victims and make even more money! Other doctors hire dieticians and operate "weight loss" clinics -- a whole lot of money!

The point is that people with business sense will always find a way around everything. As you can see, there are many ways to make money with an MD.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I totally agree with mward here. Residency is not critical, but if you want people's respect in biotech/pharm, you need to do residency or get a PhD. You're not talking to a bunch of idiots here. The people who work in biopharm know the process in physician training. Really successful people have been successful academic attendings, clinical investigators, or well published scientists for years. If you talk to enough people in the business over a couple of (hard) drinks, you'll hear people talk about people and how some people have an MD but aren't "real doctors". So proceed cautiously before quitting halfway through training. There's an unspoken perception that non-residency trained MD's (without significant research contribution or practice experience) who end up doing business (and/or law) are "slimey" and are backdooring their way into the corporate world. Remember, when you walk around flexing that MD degree, you better be able to back it up. There are SOOO many stories about MD's and DO's who asked that their colleagues address them as "Doctor XYZ", only for word to get out that these guys couldn't save your life if you choked on a piece of steak or give advice on how to clip ingrown toe nails when you take clients out to eat. Word spreads real fast too... it would really suck to have that reputation. Just telling you how it is, some of y'all may disagree.

You don't need the MD to accel on the business end. But remember, in biotech/pharm business, employers would rather hire 1 bad ass business person and 1 bad ass physician/scientist than hire 1 mediocre MD/MBA. Usually there's too much money at stake to skimp on paying the right people to do the right job (we're talking about straight up Microeconomics 101 Comparative Advantage). That's true in industry, it's true in VC/PE, probably true in consulting... probably not so true in investment banking.

By the way, look real hard into the Masters in Biotech. They're basically science classes designed for the non-PhD.

If you're interested in Wharton (and I'm not an expert here), realize that the HCMG MBA is a separate application with different set of standards from the regular MBA, meaning that they understand the disparity in work experience in an MD student compared to an accountant. That said, make sure you get better info that what I can provide.

Lastly, before you make a decision as to where your life will head, make sure you do your research. If you want to know what MD/MBAs do in biotech/pharma land, hit the want ads and see what the market is and what the market is demanding.

If you're interested in health care finance, it's better to be a bad ass financial analyst. Time is better spent doing 4 years of working full time 100 hours a week doing securities analysis, option pricing, trading, budgeting, whatever than spending 4 years in med school just to "understand" the market. At the end of the day, your employer will be hiring you for your financial skills and not your industry knowledge. Remember, when it's 3 or 4 am, and you need to crank out that model because millions of dollars are riding on your ability to hone in on a target price that your team is going to negotiate 7 am on a conference call with London, you will be wishing you had spent 4 years devoted to finance than 4 years memorizing whether Cornyebacterium is gram positive or negative or whether a freaking chest xray is pleural effusion or atelectasis. Seriously. At that point in time, nobody will care that you can differentiate an aortic stenosis from tricuspid regurge with a stethescope. You can gain industry knowledge by working for firms with health care projects, but ultimately you will be responsible for cranking out the numbers if you're interested in health care finance. I will be very honest, these people are unapologetic about their expectations.

I feel bad laying it out like this, but this is my opinion on the subject. Hope there're no hard feelings.

Well posted! I agree with your perspective too. Being in the business world myself I agree with perspective! Know the industry and what is being forcasted because more likely than not, you aren't the only one with the idea to enter into a competitive field. As techonology changes, fields have a tendency to shrink as they become more efficient with less staffing.

As for the MD degree, the letters can not speak for experience. The book/clinical knowledge is great, but there are other methods that might help you achieve your goal (without such a high cost). What about a PhD Biotech program only?

 

[Primate]

Generally speaking, at least one advanced degree is useful for legitimacy and maybe even some useful knowledge - take your pick as to which to get. I'd probably say that just an MBA is the most efficient (as stated above, you can be a bad-a$$ biz person and get hired). Next, I'd say that the PhD is useful in biotech. Next is the MD with residency. Last in line is the MD alone (IMO).

Note that this is for biotech, as originally asked, and as always only my opinion.

P