Please Help! Need to make an Important Decision!

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Either way you will have to explain yourself to residency directors: i.e. why did you withdraw?

I don't understand your phrase that you were "set up" by another student. Does that mean you did nothing wrong? If so, I would get a lawyer and refuse to follow either given option.
 
If you are truly being framed you must fight aggresively to rectify the situation... both the options that you were given may come back to haunt you.
 
naperthrill said:
Hey everyone, I know everyone hates the what if questions but this one is a little more serious. I am being charged by my school with accessing and using materials for my own benefit (basically cheating). Its a long story but basically i was set up by another student and i don't want to get into all those details but in the end i have been given two options:

1. Withdraw and leave medical school with just a W on my transcript
2. Stay in school, have to say i did it (which i didn't) and have the charge of cheating and accessing materials placed on my deans letter and official transcript.

I would like to stay in school but my fear is that if i have this kind of a charge on my transcript and deans letter that it may seriously hinder me from getting a residency? I know that having a charge like this is fairly uncommon amongst medical students (at least i assume it is). Can anyone give me their advice as to what my long term chances really are (Im currently an M-2, so i have two more years to go). Any help would be appreciated. thanks,

naperthrill
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Get a Lawyer. Its not right for them to do this to you.
 
Something similar happened at our school a few years ago. The student in question was charged with plagarism. She was actually dismissed, I think, but appealed with the help of a lawyer and numerous hearings with faculty and student support. (I don't remember all of the details - I know there was a question about equity, because two students were caught doing the same thing and only one was punished). But, after a long struggle, she was able to come back to school on good terms. She did have the incident included on her record, but she was able to finish up school and match into a competitive field.
 
man, youre from the thrill...you got no worries

go to the samba room on a saturday night and you'll find a lawyer

or if you find your situation is hopeless, just try to use a fake id at jimmy's and they will put you out of your misery

seriously though. get a lawyer. do not admit something you did not do and do not withdraw if you want to continue school.
 
If you were framed get a lawyer...fight back! good luck...
 
I would fight this with a lawyer...otherwise, it's going to raise red flags with residency adcoms (even if you were framed).
 
That's a pretty ambiguous story...sounds like the lawyers haven't been all that much help.

Is this a situation where you actually DID something but it is arguable whether it should be considered a violation???
===============================================

What about offering to pay for and take a polygraph?

If you're truly innocent you should never admit to something you did not do. Isn't that what the student/honor code is about?

I have no idea how "this" would affect your chances...besides that it obviuosly wouldn't help. Good luck.
 
naperthrill said:
ive already offered to undergo a psychiatric evaluation to prove im "normal" and don't have any issues that would lead one to believe i would commit a crime like this, as well as to prove that i am definately not going to do something like this again.

in anycase, i know this is going to raise red flags to residency committees. Im just wondering how big of a red flag it will raise. If i do decent on boards, and well on rotations, is there a chance it will be put aside? or will most residency programs just say "get lost" and ill have wasted the next 2 years of hard work. If the chances look slim, then i will just withdraw and pursue a different career. otherwise if the chances are good i would like to stay in this profession
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I don't think it is necessary to undergo a psych. eval. for this kind of a situation. Lots of "normal" (which we all know doesn't exist) people behave in an aberrant fashion--lie to get what they want/need. But, what confuses me is that you said that you have offered to prove that you will definately not do something like this AGAIN... is that a freudian slip or ....what is that? It will definately raise flags as you put it. If you truly did not commit any infraction of the honor code get yourself new lawyers. They don't seem to be the most competent. Also, you might want to reach out to a faculty member you trust and perhaps they can elucidate the situation for you. If this is what you really want and you didn't cheat you need to be very aggressive in getting this matter solved--and not bow down to the two "options" you were give. Basically, if you didn't do it, what you wrote in your initial post shouldn't even be options. Good luck. :luck:
 
Stay in, learn from your mistake, and apply to residency. Now you might not get in to your top ideal programs, but you can become what you want to be. I think residency programs will have a problem with you denying, etc. or saying you were framed whether you were or weren't. Look at Martha, do what you need to do to get this situation over with, learn from it, and allow it to make you a better person. You will match somewhere, and if not, there is the scramble. Don't drop out and go onto another career. It will follow you there, "Now what was the reason you stopped going to medical school?" will be a much to common question. Go with option number two, maybe even go to counseling... do everything you need to do to make yourself look like the better person. Now, I am anti-cheating, and I don't think it is fair to the rest of your classmates that put in the time, but I won't judge someone who admits to their mistakes, and learns from it. America is forgiving. Look at everyone we have learned to forgive many people after they have done some pretty stupid stuff.
 
I agree with sweatpea on this one. If you didn't do it then there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Tell your lawyers this is not a situation that requires compromise. The school has to let you continue because you did nothing wrong. Period.

As far as the aberration on your record, it is absolutely going to hurt you. If what you want is to be a physician then keep plugging away. You must prepare yourself for extremely limited options, such as sticking with primary care or basic internal medicine, and try to forge a life in that. While I would still reach for the stars in your case, realize that you will most likely not get that surgery or peds residency.
 
cammy1313 said:
I agree with sweatpea on this one. If you didn't do it then there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Tell your lawyers this is not a situation that requires compromise. The school has to let you continue because you did nothing wrong. Period.

As far as the aberration on your record, it is absolutely going to hurt you. If what you want is to be a physician then keep plugging away. You must prepare yourself for extremely limited options, such as sticking with primary care or basic internal medicine, and try to forge a life in that. While I would still reach for the stars in your case, realize that you will most likely not get that surgery or peds residency.
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Wow thats a pretty negative post.
 
TripleDegree said:
Wow thats a pretty negative post.
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I hate to say it but that's life. I know the last bit of Cammy's post isn't sugar-sweet, but why should it be? The reality of the situation is that you should fight for what you want/believe. Noone is going to hand what you want to you...re: this issue, noone is going to handle this issue but the OP. If the OP did not break the honor code, then he/she (sorry I can't remember right now) is going to have to go after this until his/her name is cleared. This is important, the issue is not going to solve itself or just fade away.

And if the OP did in fact cheat, seriously, they have to own up to it. That's life, noone's going to make it nicer for you. If you take accountability for your actions, then people will most likely credit you for that. If he/she did cheat and finds a scapegoat--that's just not a mature way to handle this. It will only look worse to the faculty and staff at school and later on to residency programs. It's just shady...sorry to be such a downer but reality is not always pretty.
 
I believe getting an MD is a priority. If you withdraw and then reapply, you will need to explain yourself to every med school. They'll probably just call your current med school to get their story. Guess whom are they going to believe?
With an MD, you have options. You can try to apply to non-competitive programs. If not, you don't have to go to residency. You can get an MBA from Harvard (your MD makes you very competitive), etc.
Or do a year of prelim internship, get a medical license, and moonligt couple of nights per week while making a pretty good living.
Good luck.
 
I know this isn't your question but how does someone get "set up" to look like cheating? If you do decide to stay, you'll have to explain it on interviews anyway so might as well start here.
 
I had a similar problem when the clinical staff caught me in the office looking at the answers for the pathology test. I managed to clear it up by paying off the advancement committee and they wiped it from my record. Best $200K I ever spent - well not counting my tuition. I advise you to try the same thing - just make a subtle offer to see if they're interested. Let us know how that works out for you. MD, here I come!
 
How competitive is your current medical school? Maybe you could transfer to another med school without a dean's letter? Personally, I would NEVER admit to something I did not do. Good luck.
 
cammy1313 said:
While I would still reach for the stars in your case, realize that you will most likely not get that surgery or peds residency.
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😕 😕 Peds isn't competitive.
 
naperthrill said:
basically they have logs saying that i logged in as the professor but theres nothing that proves that. it just shows that when i logged in the professor logged in around the same time, from the same location. i live in a house with 3 other roommates and we have one router so it if anyone logs in it just shows that one location. one of my roommates got into a fight with me in early february and proceeded to punch me in the face and i had an orbital fracture with entrapment that almost required surgery but luckily it didn't. right after this incident, apparantly the same roommate called and fabricated some story to the school that i logged in as the prof. then the school checks and guess what, it matches his story. Then they tell my roommates that they are not allowed to talk to me (i know this because none of them are picking up their phones and they are all avoiding me, pus one of my roommates told me they aren't allowed to talk to me). In the end what am I to think, i think for some reason after this fight my roommate had a grudge and set me up to make it look like me. in any case, the school isn't going to believe my word because i have no other evidence to show them, they have logs and this students story. So i don't really have any other choice to continue my career but to admit i did this so the school is satisfied and so i can at least become a doctor, which is my dream. i realize by doing this im admitting to something i didn't do but i have no other options and being a doctor to me is more important than all this. I hope that i will still be allowed to continue and that in the future residency programs will see that i am a capable student and accept me.
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Holy sh1t, this story is horrible! Hell yeah, you've got to get some decent lawyers on the case that will argue that this "evidence" is entirely circumstantial. Hell, if OJ got off for killing his wife, you should certainly find someone to get you out of this. Do you have medical records proving that this student assaulted you? To me, that's incredibly questionable that your accuser also assaulted you. What a nightmare. You really must fight this tooth and nail.

As far residencies, I'm not an expert, as I'm only an M1, but I imagine it would be problematic for highly competitive residencies (you know, derm, optho, ortho, neurosurg, yada yada). I don't think you'll have a problem matching into that super competitive peds residency, however. 🙄 Anyway, for medicine, family, ob, peds, even surgery at community hospitals, you should be OK. If you do super well on the boards and kick ass in your clerckships, you'll be fine. But don't give up the fight. And DON'T admit to something you didn't do. THat's going to really kick you in the ass later on. Don't let them railroad you, man. Seriously. Get an attack dog lawyer and sic them on their asses. Good luck.
 
I am still confused about whether you did do something wrong or did not. If you did do something wrong, you will pay the consequences. Just because Peds and other primary care residencies are not competitive, I imagine that a major infraction of academic honesty will surely play against you regardless of where you apply. If I were a residency director, I would rather give a spot to a DO or FMG (or even leaving it unfilled) before giving it to someone who has demonstrated a lack of professionalism, honesty, and/or integrity, which I imagine will be the way in which this is perceived. No one wants someone in their program who they are going to have fears of being a liability. Bottom line is this occurred in medical school, not high school or college. You are in the point of your career where you are expected to reach a level of maturity consistent with that of others in the medical profession. It doesn't matter if you are junior AOA at Harvard with a 280 on steps 1 and 2. If they have to worry about you damaging the reputation of the program, you are S.O.L. No accomplishment will ever allow a program to overlook something like this.

That being said, if you did not do this, regardless of whether they can prove it (remember in this country you are innocent until proven guilty), then you have to keep fighting it. Once you "admit" this, no way would a residency program ever believe otherwise.

I recommend talking to a residency director at your school how they would perceive something like this. Explain the story to this person and ask him/her how it would play a role in your shot at residency. This person's opinion would matter much more than any of us who have nothing to do with the residency application process.

Good luck.
 
Let me just say first off that I don't believe your story. Sounds fishy and In all likelyhood I think you might need some mental help.

That said, if you are telling the truth then you need to get a better lawyer. Those are not acceptable options. Its worth the money now. If the situation happened exactly as you said it did then they don't have any evidence that you cheated. Threaten to sue them, if they balk, sue them.

If you are lying than do us all a favor and drop out of medical school, I'm aware of another situation like this and the girl is guilty but still graduating...it makes me scared to think there are people like that out there practicing medicine.
 
dynx said:
Let me just say first off that I don't believe your story. Sounds fishy and In all likelyhood I think you might need some mental help.

That said, if you are telling the truth then you need to get a better lawyer. Those are not acceptable options. Its worth the money now. If the situation happened exactly as you said it did then they don't have any evidence that you cheated. Threaten to sue them, if they balk, sue them.

If you are lying than do us all a favor and drop out of medical school, I'm aware of another situation like this and the girl is guilty but still graduating...it makes me scared to think there are people like that out there practicing medicine.
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Amen. The story just sounds too, and you'll pardon me for saying it, "assholish."

Your friend beat you up so badly that you almost needed surgery and now he is getting back at you for the pleasure of kicking your ass? Wow. And on top of that, you still live with the guy?

And your school ordered presumably free people with the usual slew of constitutional rights which you do not relinquish in medical school not to talk to you? People who love you and yearn to comfort you but are afraid of being sent to some gulag if they talk to the unperson you have become?
 
naperthrill,

Something is just not adding up with that story. If the evidence is really as circumstantial as you say, your lawyers will be able to negogiate a better deal than the one you described. What really happened? If you did something wrong, the best way to proceed from here is to admit it.
 
my expression.. the truth is always something in between.
I would not come to SDN to post this, I would be in the deans office or Lawyers office trying to resolve this.
 
True story or not, there are about a thousand things that a person in this situation can do to "clear" their name. Their "logs" will show an attempted login from your IP address (unless one actually got in). This then raises many questions in my mind. First, what type of ISP do you have? Do you have a static IP address? Do you have a dynamic? Does your ISP use DHCP? I can think of about ten different ways one can access a server from one location while being from a completely different location. A person in this situation could very easily be a victim--a victim of ignorance. This is the very reason why I keep logs of all access from my computer to websites and access from the net to my computer. With so many malicious things that could happen on the net and be placed on somebody else, why don't people take better precautions? I don't buy this story for one minute. If this story is true, you need to get lawyers that understand technology and can show the very inherently flawed allegations being made.
 
naperthrill said:
aight so i guess i might as well come clean since i am of course "anonymous". anyways, so yes i did see the exam. i screwed up, i realize it. i was more dumb to tell my roommate about it, who then busted my face in for a different reason and then prolly got scared i would do something so then he told on me. whatever the case is, i definately messed up. The past 3 and a half weeks have been the worst punishment, my parents being upset, sitting on my butt all day with nothing to do, not knowing where my future is headed all for a lousy few points that i could have gotten anyways even without seeing the damn test. Basically i logged in, it was in front of my face, and curiousity killed me and i clicked on it and saw the whole thing. it definately wasn't the right thing to do, and i agree and i think i deserve a 0 for the test, should have to write a letter of apology to the prof, and if im lucky maybe get off with a warning (but i doubt that, its med school, prolly will go on my record). That being said, NOW does anyone have any advice as far as what the future may hold considering the circumstances now. Granted i still will prolly be able to continue and get my M.D. What lies ahead of that i dunno and maybe some of you can give me some insight. Do you guys still think that i will be able to get a IM or Peds residency (i was hoping for rads or anesthesiolgy but i think those chances are slim now...)? thanks in advance...
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Busted, digusted, and can't be trusted. 😱

If i was you, luckly i'm not, I'd just get my md and take what ever res I could get and be very happy about. Luckly getting your degree is still and option.

How did you log on as the professor anyway, did you hack, steal his log password, or was it by chance?
 
Lying
Cheating
Invasion of privacy
Poor judgment
Impulsivity
Lack of appropriate levels of remorse

When I think of the kind of person I want as my GP or my kids' ped, I don't think of these things. But you have displayed all of them in spades. After all the rigamarole one has to go through to get in to medical school, the fact is that you took a spot from someone with integrity. I have little sympathy for you and I think you should find a different career. I think law may be good for you-- you get paid to lie.

Good luck.
 
You are sick. I knew something wasn't right with this story - that is why I explicitly mentioned to you that whether or not two people were logged in at the same time, it would be very easy to obtain your internet protocol address and do a background check on it (ie. local ISP, location, etc).

You had this coming to you. If the exam was in front of your face and you did something accidentally that just happened to let you in on it, this might be different - but you had the audacity to try to LOG-IN as your professor? Are you nuts?!

You had better take whatever your school has to offer. You are lucky you are even going to get a chance to go back and complete your degree.

That is utterly disgusting. What is up with all of these "I did something, should I get back at the school now" threads?

Don't worry. Whether or not your friend did something, your school would have found out sooner or later. It's all a matter of time. At least you know now, karma does work.
 
thanks, its great to know you have no sympathy (i thought that was a characteristic doctors were supposed to have). So i should get paid to lie huh, read the other posts idiot, 25% of med students admit to cheating. Crap happens in life, people like you prevent people who make mistakes from learning and moving in a positive direction. thats sad, with that kind of philosophy, some of your patients may make stupid decisions that may place them at your care. what are you gonna tell them, you made a ******* desicion, now live with it. thats too bad, personally id rather have a doctor who made a mistake and learned from it, then one who thinks hes perfect and isn't sympathetic at all. But i guess we all our entitled to our own opinions.
 
naperthrill said:
thanks, its great to know you have no sympathy (i thought that was a characteristic doctors were supposed to have). So i should get paid to lie huh, read the other posts idiot, 25% of med students admit to cheating. Crap happens in life, people like you prevent people who make mistakes from learning and moving in a positive direction. thats sad, with that kind of philosophy, some of your patients may make stupid decisions that may place them at your care. what are you gonna tell them, you made a ******* desicion, now live with it. thats too bad, personally id rather have a doctor who made a mistake and learned from it, then one who thinks hes perfect and isn't sympathetic at all. But i guess we all our entitled to our own opinions.
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You are not my patient, you are my colleague. My responsibility is not to your health, but to the maintenance of standards in our profession. That is why I have responded to you in a completely different manner than how I would respond to one of my patients. I am sorry that you did this and I feel sorry for you, but I don't feel that something like this is forgivable. This goes beyond cheating to a total lack of respect for your professor's privacy.

I don't want to keep writing posts because I am sure you are going to get roasted for this enough on this thread, naper, but I have one more thing to say... didn't you think you would get caught? These are the kinds of mistakes that kids make -- fooling around with others' emails and electronic accounts. I did it once to my mom. I logged in and read an email from my aunt about a recipe for eggplant. I felt wracked with guilt and confessed to my mom, who promptly ripped me a new dingus. Oh, and by the way, I was 13.

You're at least 10 years older than that and doing something much, much more egregious. Why? And where is your common sense? Even leaving for a minute the fact that it is wrong, weren't you aware how easy it would be to catch you?
 
I am not going to give you a lot of flack about this because I think my previous post spoke for itself.

I want to allay your fears by telling you that yes, you will be able to get a residency. I have yet to hear of a doctor that hasn't been able to match into or scramble into one, but is just left on a dirt road after medical school. That scenario is very unlikely. With that said, do well on your boards, get involved with the community and the school, and don't look back now. I hope you learned from your mistake. Generally, I don't think anyone should get dismissed from medical school, but rather should be counseled and reprimanded for what they did. It seems like you are getting the latter at this point as well. As for your friend, he should have been reprimanded as well for being your accomplice in this mess, or for indirectly trying to screw you over even more. That's not a friend, just so you know.

You will get a residency. Next time you post something, whether it's school related or not, be honest. If you're not honest, no one can ever trust you. It's possible to forgive, but only with first knowing the entire story.
 
May I remind you that I was in the same situation when I accidentally broke in to the path office and accidentally broke into the file cabinet with the test; then it was just lying in front of me, and what could I do but look? Bribing the advancement committee got me clean - give it a try, it might work for you too! I just walked up and said, "Hey, can you guys make this go away if I just give you each $50K?" They said yes, end of story. What do you have to lose? Let us know how that turns out for you
 
Axis I: Deferred
Axis II: Antisocial PD
Axis III: Deferred
Axis IV: Altercation with roommate, chronic psychiatric condition
Axis V: GAS=75

Our young friend isn't sorry he cheated, he's sorry he got caught. I suspect the lesson he learned from this is not "It's wrong to cheat," but rather, "It's wrong if you get caught." But you know, maybe I'm way off base reading his posts. Maybe he's really a stand up guy. :laugh:

And as a mental note, even if 25% of the medical students posting on SDN admitted they cheated, doesn't mean the other 75% wouldn't spit on the ground the aforementioned 25% walked on.
 
You're a joke. Scrape together what little integrity you might have left, admit to your school judicial commity what you did and accept whatever they choose. If they let you stay on, don't worry about how it will look to a residency director, do your best and let the cards fall where they may...just be happy you're still gonna be an MD. If anything, admitting what you did in the future and saying that you learned from your mistake is probably the best way to go about answering questions directors may have about it.
 
naperthrill said:
Hey everyone, pedsboy it worked!!! thank you so much!!! i walked in with two bags with unmarked bills, 100 thousand in total. They quickly dropped all charges. In fact they offered to let me have access to all the exams from now on as well as to rename their pathology course after me. wow, money goes a long way. thanks for all your insight, had i known all i had to do was flash a benjamin and the dean would give the biggest O face ive ever seen, i could have avoided these 3 weeks of hell. anyways, thanks peds boy, without you i couldn't have continued with the clean record i have today.
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See, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! I'll PM the address to send my consultation fee to... (I knew peoples with them fancy engineerin' degrees had the big bucks!)
 
Doe$ thi$ mean you wanted to be a phy$ician becau$e of the dollar$ you could make or how much more you can earn with your engineering degree. You know at first I felt sorry for you, but the more you wrote the more I realized that you got caught for a reason and even you're suprised at yourself. You get no sympathy from me. Take your 100K debt and pay it off as an engineer. 👎
 
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