Please tell me Middle Easterners are a minority!

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Handsome88

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Hey everyone, I have a Canadian citizenship, but I am originally Middle Eastern (Arab to be specific). Am I considered a "minority" in the US?

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The term minority in relation to medical school applications has to do with the ratio between patient population size and the number of medical doctors representing the same ethnic backround

I think you may be misinterpreting it as a general definition for what a minority is.

I am almost 100 percent sure that Middle Easterners are not URMs on AAMC applications.
 
Hey everyone, I have a Canadian citizenship, but I am originally Middle Eastern (Arab to be specific). Am I considered a "minority" in the US?


to answer your question, yes, you are a minority in the US.

but not as a medical school applicant.
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!

blah blah blah

here we go URM debate let me fire up the popcorn
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!

i have my violin tuned and ready.

get over it.
 
blah blah blah

here we go URM debate let me fire up the popcorn

Extra butter please.

Handsome, why don't you stop whining and get in based on your merits, not your ethnicity. It's not even America's policy, it's the med school policies that define URM. I can almost guarantee if I tried to get into a med school as a caucasian student in Saudi Arabia, or even most of the world, I would probably be at a disadvantage!

"To accept the things you cannot change," is simply a good policy to live by IMO. If you're a strong student who really wants to become a doctor, I have a feeling you'll get what you want, and you won't need some "special" URM stuff to achieve it. Would you rather get in because you're Handsome88 an academic achiever about to add to the prestige of practicing medicine, or because you're Arab? Honestly that choice is for you, but I know what I'd pick.

My $0.02.
 
Extra butter please.

Handsome, why don't you stop whining and get in based on your merits, not your ethnicity. It's not even America's policy, it's the med school policies that define URM. I can almost guarantee if I tried to get into a med school as a caucasian student in Saudi Arabia, or even most of the world, I would probably be at a disadvantage!

"To accept the things you cannot change," is simply a good policy to live by IMO. If you're a strong student who really wants to become a doctor, I have a feeling you'll get what you want, and you won't need some "special" URM stuff to achieve it. Would you rather get in because you're Handsome88 an academic achiever about to add to the prestige of practicing medicine, or because you're Arab? Honestly that choice is for you, but I know what I'd pick.

My $0.02.

that advice was worth about $ 100

take it.
 
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Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!
As a similar minority, your discrimination comment is laughable. The "magically become Caucasian" statement also shows your poor reading comprehension.
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!

If you don't like the US, then I'd recommend staying in Canada. Take a stand and don't reap the benefits of our medical education, really, stick it to the man.
 
If you don't like the US, then I'd recommend staying in Canada. Take a stand and don't reap the benefits of our medical education, really, stick it to the man.
USA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!!!111111



(do people actually still think like this?)
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!

so stay in canada.
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!


i think you are totally missing the point here. the point isn't whether you are a minority but whether your minority is sufficiently represented in the medical field. it should be pretty obvious that arabs/middle easterners are probably overrepresented in the medical field....stemming mostly from a strong cultural bias favoring medicine as a profession. African americans and hispanics don't get a boost because they are AA or hispanic, they get a boost because they represent large minorities in the general population but are disproportionately underrepresented in the medical field.

...whether this policy is fair or not is irrelevant to this discussion

also there's no race/ethnicity category of "other" or "middle eastern" on the AMCAS so you'll have to check caucasian
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!

cry me a river. how about you get in based on MERIT. You're whining because you aren't going to get a handicap due to the color of your skin? what a F'n joke
 
Hey everyone, I have a Canadian citizenship, but I am originally Middle Eastern (Arab to be specific). Am I considered a "minority" in the US?

I have the exact same situation as you (my family is Egyptian and I was born in Canada). We are definitely NOT URMs in the U.S. In fact, Arab Americans are technically "White" on those forms. No extra points for us!

As others have said, if you want it and work for it I'm sure you will get in anyway. Good luck👍
 
Maybe you are minority, but you are definitely not an URM.Period.
The same thing holds true for Chinese, Indian...😎
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!
You are Caucasian by definition... You can either be Yellow, black, or caucasian. Your choice.
 
OP, heed the advice of the other posters. As long as you're a qualified applicant (MCAT, GPA, experiences) you'll get in at least somewhere. If your desire is to end up in a competitive residency or speciality (why many seek to attend top med schools) then just do well on the boards and you'll end up where you want to. AA has its merits and purpose but I think it only goes so far and for certain fields the logic behind it falls apart.
 
cry me a river. how about you get in based on MERIT. You're whining because you aren't going to get a handicap due to the color of your skin? what a F'n joke

Same should go for everyone, eh? 🙄

OP, for the purposes of applying to medical school, you are not a minority. Best of luck!
 
its pretty sick to live in a country where you just naturally expect to have an advantage because you might be a minority.
 
Oh how much I hate the double standard in the US. They discriminate against us whenever they want as we are not "white", and when it comes to actually benefiting from being a non-Caucasian minority we are no longer considered so, we magically become Caucasian!


There are no double standards. Be pleased that you actually do get benefits in some departments/situations. Not only that, you are able to live a peaceful life in a foreign country and enjoy the same (or more)benefits/freedoms than the natives (i.e. Caucasians).

It is not discrimination. They are simple easy to understand policies. Ever wonder how much the middle eastern governments will benefit Caucasians living in Middle east for being "Non-Arab Minorities". We all know the answer.
 
😕 I am confused by this discussion. Okay, so he's not technically a URM. But I really don't think being a URM helps in quite the way you guys seem to think it does, like "This is a terrible applicant but... omg he's black! We must pay more attention to his application anyway!"

However, I think every little thing that might make you stick out is worth exploring, so if what you're asking is, "Could being Middle Eastern help me out in this application cycle" then the answer is sure it could, if you can find some way to make it a relevant, interesting point about you.

There are no free rides to med school, not matter who you are.
 
😕 I am confused by this discussion. Okay, so he's not technically a URM. But I really don't think being a URM helps in quite the way you guys seem to think it does, like "This is a terrible applicant but... omg he's black! We must pay more attention to his application anyway!"

Replace "terrible" with "below average" and that is exactly how it works.
 
What about just expecting fairness and equality? The average GPA and MCAT are higher for Asian med students because we are over-represented? What about college football? When I went to UT, there was no single asian on the football team. I played 2 years of football in high school, so will they take me just because Asians are "under-represented" on the football team? I don't think so because I know I'm not good enough but at least they are being fair.
 
sorry to take this off topic but I couldn't help but wonder if others who responded with "love it or leave it" or something similar would have said those things if the OP were not Arab or Middle Eastern. It's an interesting observation that those who said those things were Caucasian but it'd perhaps be more interesting to see how their last names end!
 
There are no double standards. Be pleased that you actually do get benefits in some departments/situations. Not only that, you are able to live a peaceful life in a foreign country and enjoy the same (or more)benefits/freedoms than the natives (i.e. Caucasians).

It is not discrimination. They are simple easy to understand policies. Ever wonder how much the middle eastern governments will benefit Caucasians living in Middle east for being "Non-Arab Minorities". We all know the answer.


This person is not Caucasian/black or from the US; Right is right no matter how you look at it.
 
Replace "terrible" with "below average" and that is exactly how it works.

Below average stats does not equal below average applicant. Numbers aren't everything. I'm not going to pretend that URMs can't get in with lower numbers than other applicants, but they're not letting in people that they don't think will still be good doctors and will do fine in their schools. They have their own reputations to protect, and if they were churning out URM doctors who were terrible, that would be bad for the school.
 
Below average stats does not equal below average applicant. Numbers aren't everything.

give me a break. affirmative action is meant to level the playing field for urms given their social/economic hardships. in most cases, i doubt this is true anymore, especially in our world today. therefore, most below average applicants get in due to their urm status.
 
yah but even if you are not white, you are asian and that too is not a minority for med admissions. So yah sorry buddy. But a lot of arabs I know are caucasian by blood and you can tell that from seeing the color of their skin. Arabs are a mix of asian and caucasian ancestry by definition and as such are not URMs.

😕😕😕 Care to elaborate?
 
give me a break. affirmative action is meant to level the playing field for urms given their social/economic hardships. in most cases, i doubt this is true anymore, especially in our world today. therefore, most below average applicants get in due to their urm status.

😕 I don't see how we're saying completely different things. I'm just being more PC. 🙂

I'm saying that if they don't think someone's a good fit for the school or if they think they'll be a terrible doctor, they won't get in, even if they're a URM. However, there's fewer URMs applying overall, and they tend to have lower stats, so yeah, in order to have more than just a handful of URMs become doctors, they're getting in with lower stats than say, Caucasians, because there's more Caucasians to choose from, and more of them with higher numbers.
 
😕😕😕 Care to elaborate?

give me a break. affirmative action is meant to level the playing field for urms given their social/economic hardships. in most cases, i doubt this is true anymore, especially in our world today. therefore, most below average applicants get in due to their urm status.


Agreed. Even President Obama said that his kids should not benefit from their URM status. But on the contrary, being the child of the president will benefit you more than being a URM!:laugh:
 
sorry to take this off topic but I couldn't help but wonder if others who responded with "love it or leave it" or something similar would have said those things if the OP were not Arab or Middle Eastern. It's an interesting observation that those who said those things were Caucasian but it'd perhaps be more interesting to see how their last names end!

You mean if he were from Spain, you think the responses would be different in regard to his post about our double standard? lol
 
You mean if he were from Spain, you think the responses would be different in regard to his post about our double standard? lol

yeah, you don't have to phrase it like that. you could have just said there is no such double standard instead of saying to take a hike.
 
:-D!!! Everyone was yelling at that arab guy, so I decided to join in too...
uhm... (give me something to say)
 
I disagree. He would have gotten the same response regardless of his ethnic background with his "indignant" post.
 
Below average stats does not equal below average applicant. Numbers aren't everything. I'm not going to pretend that URMs can't get in with lower numbers than other applicants, but they're not letting in people that they don't think will still be good doctors and will do fine in their schools. They have their own reputations to protect, and if they were churning out URM doctors who were terrible, that would be bad for the school.

No, they are below average applicants. On average, URMs are more likely to need extra time to complete medical school, for example. Of course, the vast majority do successfully complete their education.

Contrary to what bruceleehiiiyaa said, the idea behind preferential treatment of URMs is not simply to level the playing field. If that were the case, one would have look at individual circumstances regardless of ethnicity, and some schools do allow you to discuss that on your secondary application. Rather, as the term implies, URM's come from groups who are underrepresented in medicine; the medical establishment feels that it is essential to increase the number of doctors in those ethnic groups. Thus, President Obama's daughters would qualify as URM's. The OP would not, because Middle Easterners are not underrepresented in American medicine, as someone mentioned above.

Oh, and normlsaline, I think the OP is being given a hard time due to the fact that he is Canadian, more than Arab. There have been quite a few posts lately by Canadians whining about American medical education. If it's so bad, stay in Canada.
 
On average, URMs are more likely to need extra time to complete medical school, for example.

Didn't know that was an established fact. Where can I see that kind of data? Honest question. Not saying I think you're lying. I like looking at these kinds of numbers.

Rather, as the term implies, URM's come from groups who are underrepresented in medicine; the medical establishment feels that it is essential to increase the number of doctors in those ethnic groups.

That's how I've understood it, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing (not necessarily a good thing either).
 
will we have this URM discussion every week?
 
Didn't know that was an established fact. Where can I see that kind of data? Honest question. Not saying I think you're lying. I like looking at these kinds of numbers.

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf

The data is kind of old, but the article is from 2007 so it may be the most recent data available.

That's how I've understood it, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing (not necessarily a good thing either).

I believe the idea is that patients from those groups do better when they are treated by physicians of their own group - that is, they are more compliant, etc. Also, perhaps more disturbingly, there are differences in how physicians treat patients of other ethnic groups. I read an article about that not too long ago, but I don't have a source for it right now.
 
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will we have this URM discussion every week?

Yup!

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf

The data is kind of old, but the article is from 2007 so it may be the most recent data available.

Wow. I'm actually kind of surprised by those numbers. I wonder if it's gotten/will get any better. I hope so.


I believe the idea is that patients from those groups do better when they are treated by physicians of their own group - that is, they are more compliant, etc. Also, perhaps more disturbingly, there are differences in how physicians treat patients of other ethnic groups. I read an article about that not too long ago, but I don't have a source for it right now.

Yeah, that's the idea.
 
so I have to go right now. But I'll look up the other countries for you but I can tell you this much that the syrian arabs I knew, the palestinian arabs I knew, and the other non egyptian arabs I knew were all caucasian if you looked at them and they even admitted such. Esp. true of the syrians I knew more then any arab group. Egyptians are the only ones that looked like their own ethnic distinction that should not be piled in the caucasian category. I'll get back to you later and I'm sorry I can't respond with a more extensive answer right now but I have some stuff to do. So don't attack my posts until I've had a chance to come back and finish what I was saying. That goes to anyone else. Let me finish it up later.
:laugh::laugh::laugh: In my 20+ years of life, I never bothered to understand what the term Caucasian means. I always used it interchangeably w/ White Americans.
Apparently, Asian Indians are also Caucasian (quoted from the scholarly Resource, Wikipedia!)
"In the United States, the term Caucasian has been mainly used to describe a group commonly called White Americans, as defined by the government and Census Bureau.[20] Between 1917 and 1965, immigration to the US was restricted by a national origins quota. The Supreme Court in United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind (1923) decided that Asian Indians – unlike Europeans and Middle Easterners – were Caucasian, but were not white, because most laypeople did not consider them to be white people. This was important for determining whether they could become naturalized citizens, then limited to free whites. The court and government changed its opinion in 1946. In 1965 major changes were made to immigration law, lifting earlier restrictions on immigrants from Asia."

A bit of contradiction there, huh.


It was ignorance on my part; The definition of Caucasian is much more complex than I understood it too be. I learned something new today! But still for purposes of Medical school in the U.S., Caucasian = White Americans
 
sorry to take this off topic but I couldn't help but wonder if others who responded with "love it or leave it" or something similar would have said those things if the OP were not Arab or Middle Eastern. It's an interesting observation that those who said those things were Caucasian but it'd perhaps be more interesting to see how their last names end!


Haha, exactly...if I simply said I was Asian (middle easterners are technically Asians too), I think I would have received different responses from some of the people here. I actually saw an asian URM post and some were actually supporting the idea of considering them URM's, even though they are well represented (from what I see in Canada).
 
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