PM&R job market in CA?

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MSKhopeful

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Did not see a thread about PM&R job market in CA so figured to create one. Curious to know how tough is it make to CA for PM&R (with or without fellowship)? I take it SF and LA are probably over saturated but what about Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, San Diego, Orange, Thousand Oaks, San Jose, etc. Any advice would be great, especially PM&R recent graduates work in CA. Reason for CA specifically is that I would like to stay close to my aging parents but may have to look outside if the job market in CA is very tough.
 
job market sucks anywhere nice
 
In California, the job market for PM&R was already saturated some years ago, so much so that if you go to any of the nearby states, many of those physicians had previously practiced in California. Those doing their residency in California have a huge upper hand in terms of grabbing positions that open up as a result of rotations at outside practices and contacts with nearby attendings.

I take it SF and LA are probably over saturated but what about Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, San Diego, Orange, Thousand Oaks, San Jose, etc.

If there's not jobs in LA's vast blue-collar inland sprawl, there's def not jobs in those educated, picturesque, wealthy beach communities. It's a bit like going to the Rolls Royce dealer when you find you can't afford a Mercedes.

But it's not all doom and gloom. If you want to get your foot in the door, think Occupational Medicine. There's still quite a few (salaried) openings in that throughout the state. Almost no one does the Occ. Med. residency and no one cares if you did the 1 year MPH or whatever on top of a different residency to sit for the Occ. Med. board exam. They need people to staff the Occ. Med. clinics, which there's a lot of. They usually get Primary Care, but they prefer PM&R because the job is mostly MSK. If you can familiarize yourself with some lingo like "the AMA guides", "MMI", "impairment rating", you'll amaze them on your interviews because most folks have no clue about any of that stuff and have to be taught on the job.
 
I wouldn't listen to anyone. I am going to practice and work in California potentially, and nothing will stop me. If you want a job, a good job, you can get one in any area. Some people make it all sound like its all doom and gloom in Cali, and you will have to go to some random no name place in a no name state to find a job.

Will it be competitive? Sure. Will you find a great job with great pay? Sure. Do you have to do residency in California for this? No. What about people who are from Cali but did residency elsewhere, you are suddenly screwed and cannot be with family or loved ones, unless you go for a mediocre low end job in your field? No.

Also, you can always open up your own practice too. And I'm talking about getting a job in hot spots too, SF, LA, SD, OC etc.
 
I wouldn't listen to anyone. I am going to practice and work in California potentially, and nothing will stop me. If you want a job, a good job, you can get one in any area. Some people make it all sound like its all doom and gloom in Cali, and you will have to go to some random no name place in a no name state to find a job.

Will it be competitive? Sure. Will you find a great job with great pay? Sure. Do you have to do residency in California for this? No. What about people who are from Cali but did residency elsewhere, you are suddenly screwed and cannot be with family or loved ones, unless you go for a mediocre low end job in your field? No.

Also, you can always open up your own practice too. And I'm talking about getting a job in hot spots too, SF, LA, SD, OC etc.

Location, lifestyle, pay
Pick the two that are most important to you and you can make them happen if you search/work at it. No physician job has all three unless you truly enjoy living in BFE, or you have low ethical standards.

Your post sounds determined but also quite uninformed. Willpower alone can't circumvent market forces.

IF you can find a job in CA, it will be for much less pay than other less desirable areas or you will work much harder and longer hours each week to bring home the same $ you would make in other areas for standard full-time work.
 
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Apply and find out. Simple.
 
Also, you can always open up your own practice too. And I'm talking about getting a job in hot spots too, SF, LA, SD, OC etc.

Opening up your own practice for a new graduate is very difficult and not just in California. The real question is, how do you get the patients? Even advertising, networking, practice promotion, etc. only goes so far. What you will find is most local doctors already have established referral patterns. What possible interest would they have in sending patients to you when they've already got doctors happy to see their patients and patients happy to see those doctors? Why should they (and their minimally trained, high-turnover office staff) waste mental energy remembering names of different doctors in each specialty and referring alternately to each of them when it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to them financially if they can just remember 1 or 2 and send all their patients to them? In America, it helps to have some kind of "in" whether it's a business-in (work in same extended group as PCP's), an ethnic-in, a religious-in, or whatever else.

In many geographic areas, the insurance alone becomes a major catch. It takes a long time to get on the insurance panels and some of them may be closed. So you go around telling people that you take A, B, C, but not yet X, Y, Z but you're working on it and you even write down the ones you can take one your brochure. But why would they refer to you when they've got tried and proven established specialists they're referring to that have been around for decades and already take insurances A-Z?
 
Location, lifestyle, pay
Pick the two that are most important to you and you can make them happen if you search/work at it. No physician job has all three unless you truly enjoy living in BFE, or you have low ethical standards.

I wouldn't say no job, unless you are talking specifically about employed positions.

As far as starting a practice in a desirable location, yes, it will definitely take ingenuity, perseverance, and luck.
 
I wouldn't say no job, unless you are talking specifically about employed positions.

As far as starting a practice in a desirable location, yes, it will definitely take ingenuity, perseverance, and luck.
Applies to vast majority of private practice owners as well.

Insurance companies hold incredible sway over docs in SoCal as so many want to live there. I know of several that ended up accepting only 80 percent of Medicare rates from commercial insurers (instead of usual 120-130 percent Medicare), just to get on insurance panels.

So, yes even with lots if willpower, you will still make much less $ in places like LA and NYC, because insurance companies own your ass in highly desirable locales and they know it.
 
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The trifecta exists, but may not be possible for a new grad (So when is one no longer a new grad? Probably depends on the location.).

Practices I've seen than meet these criteria are run by doctors that are business savvy and able to think outside the box, but were also lucky (i.e. right place at the right time). Opportunistic might be a better word.
 
I have to weigh in on this thread because I think there are some good and valid points all around. I agree that there is a lot of "doom and gloom" when discussing physiatry in CA, and part of that is because there are not a lot of Academic training programs here, and certainly not a lot of what is typically considered "good" ones. When I was interviewing for fellowships years ago, and I casually mentioned that I was thinking about working one day in CA, the automatic response was "Oh, I guess you're not interested in Academics". The resulting private practice free-for-all leads to some interesting practice dynamics.

That point aside, there are some peculiarities about practicing here. First and foremost is the aforementioned "Sun Shine Tax". This is a crowded, saturated, and highly competetive market, and a lot of people (physicians or otherwise) want to move here. If you want to work in sunny CA, you should expect your overall income as a physician to be on the order of 25% - 30% less than many other areas of the country. This combined with a much higher cost of living and high tax rate makes being a physician in CA less financially viable certainly. But you're a doctor. Its not like you're going to be poor...

The posts above regarding insurance companies' hold over practices is dead on. California is a heavily managed care state, and that's without even taking into account Kaiser. There are a lot of other powerful HMO's and they have a near strangle-hold over not only the job market, but the overall referral base. California is also (despite mainstream media's depiction of fame and fortune) a very poor state, especially in the Inland areas. ACA/Obamacare equivalent here is called California Covered, and they reimburse if I'm not mistaking about 68-70% of what medicare does. Most physicians (of all specialities) do not accept this in my area, and it makes multidisciplinary care or overall care-coordination difficult, especially for patients whose employer or insurance companies changed without their consent/knowledge.

With regards to the referral base, PM&R suffers from under-exposure here. The PMDs really have NO idea what you do, and in many cases, have become accustomed to referring to other specialities (neurology, anesthesiology, ortho/neurosurg, etc). The only thing they are really sure that you do is the typical "functional restoration" for deconditioned, medically or surgically complex patient's (i.e. the same thing they try to dump on you in the inpatient setting). Trying to get through to the referral base, whether through grass roots, door-to-door meetings or even mass marketing takes time, effort, is often fruitless and unsatisfying. As someone mentioned above, they have no reasons to trust you or change their behavior and referral patterns built up over years of complacency, and this is perhaps one of the most frustrating things for a young physician or newly minted out-of-training doc to understand, especially if you come from a heavily academic background where you had exposure, respect, and did not have to fight for your business. That being said, noone said being a doctor was going to be easy. It takes time, effort, blood, sweat and tears to build a practice anywhere. My best advice is to simply be a good doctor. Take care of your patients and they'll eventually take care of you. Remain true to your ethics and your principles, and over time, people will notice and will come around.

Some tips for people considering moving here:
1) Apply for your CA state license early. Many jobs wont even talk to you unless you already have one. This is because it take FOREVER (up to 9 months in some cases) to get a darned license.

2) Have a good reason to be here. One of the most common issues people had when I was looking was that they didn't know WHY I would think about moving here, and thus why I would consider staying on long-term. Unbelievably, apparently people in CA don't realize that the rest of the world fantasizes about moving here.

3) Worker's comp works differently here than in other states. There is a system called the MPN, and unless you are on the networks, you cannot see their patient's. As with applying for a license, getting approved by MPNs takes time, and there is a lot of resistance against credentialing new physicians. Given that many clinics here are heavily work comp based, this will definately affect your ability to get a job.

4) If you are an interventionalist, don't forget that you are required to have a darned Fluoro License to practice here. This requires passing an examination, and again, the whole process takes quite a bit of time.

5) There is an unusual process called "proctoring" here, where you need to technically be proctored by a physician of your specialty before your credentialing can be confirmed. Its utter BS and everyone knows it, and ultimately a way for older physicians to exert power and control the market for when other physicians try to make a move in their territory. Again, if you are an interventionalist, a MSK or pain specialist, this process (and by extension, obtaining long-term hospital priveledges) can be a headache. There really are no other physiatrists who do what I do in my community. When I tried to get proctored for my pain cases, the hospital would not accept an anesthesiologist as a proctor because they were not in the same specialty. When I asked the local physiatrist to proctor me, he looked confused, as he was a general physiatrist and stated that he knew nothing about what I do.

I disagree with the above posts that you cannot have a good job, location, pay, and lifestyle. I happen to have all of the above. Getting a job anywhere, especially a good one is most certainly an arduous process that requires compentance, persistance and strength of will, a willingness to "play the game" and an ability to network. As with any geographic location or market, there is also a strong component that is strictly luck and timing.
 
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if all you want are job opportunities in a competitive, desirable area just go into primary care. Do not choose a subspecialty based on geography.
 
I have to weigh in on this thread because I think there are some good and valid points all around. I agree that there is a lot of "doom and gloom" when discussing physiatry in CA, and part of that is because there are not a lot of Academic training programs here, and certainly not a lot of what is typically considered "good" ones. When I was interviewing for fellowships years ago, and I casually mentioned that I was thinking about working one day in CA, the automatic response was "Oh, I guess you're not interested in Academics". The resulting private practice free-for-all leads to some interesting practice dynamics.


I disagree with the above posts that you cannot have a good job, location, pay, and lifestyle. I happen to have all of the above. Getting a job anywhere, especially a good one is most certainly an arduous process that requires compentance, persistance and strength of will, a willingness to "play the game" and an ability to network. As with any geographic location or market, there is also a strong component that is strictly luck and timing.


Thanks for a great and informative post.

I have family to get back to. Aging parents to take care of, and a vitamin D deficiency that needs to be addressed.

will you hire me?
 
I think its possible to be anywhere but you have to ask yourself what your goal is for living and lifestyle based on income. The reality is, as I get older at least, a lot of stuff is not really that necessary. in which case the more frugal you can live the more places you can go.

As previous poster said if you want a job you can go anywhere any time, then PMR is not it. You should have gone hospitalist or EM/urgent care that type of stuff.

Also what is your timeline? For PM&R a job is like bird watching you have to know where to look, and when , and you have to keep looking sometimes, even if its not there.But if you have a longer term horizon i.e. 2 years thats plenty of time to get there I truly believe. Also remember the more years you are out the more attractive a candidate you are for any job; you will itnerview better, know what to look for etc.
 
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