PM&R Scamble List?

[CopperCanyon]

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Hi all,

Congrats to all of you who have matched. While I generally consider myself a patient person, Thursday couldn't come sooner. It seems as if it's possible to getter a better idea where you matched if you have access to the list of programs that didn't match. While it's not a 100% lock (since some of your programs may have not ranked you at all), it seems rather probable that if your #3 program has an open position, you're likely (but not 100%) to get #1 or #2. There are 13 open spots per NRMP.

For those of you who didn't match, would you mind sharing those programs with open spots?

Good luck to those of your scrambling. I wish you the best.

 

[SportsMed09]

I am also curious to hear which programs have open spots, considering we can't see the unfilled list this year.

 

[AviatorDoc]

Only 13 open positions in the country in PM&R? Does that seem low even compared to recent years?

 

[Ludicolo]

Only 13 open positions in the country in PM&R? Does that seem low even compared to recent years?

Yep.

15 open pre-scramble spots last year, 21 spots the year before that.

Looks lower for all specialties across the board.

I’m hearing the scramble is brutal this year.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2007.pdf

 

[promethius]

So anyone have any idea what the unfilled programs are for this year? Congratulations on the Match tomorrow everyone!

 

[Kinjal350z]

i know st vincent had every spot unfilled..... big shock

 

[canal]

why would you say that about st.vincent?

 

[oreosandsake]

i also heard that tufts had 2 spots, and buffalo had 1

not sure if they've filled by now.

 

[ampaphb]

So now that it's over, who had the open positions this year?

 

[Llenroc]

I demand to see the list.

 

[Taus]

Below are the 12 unfilled spots listed on the NRMP website in a file called "Match Outcomes For All Institutions By State 2009":


Tufts had 2/4 unfilled
Mayo 2/8
St. Vincents 2/4
Buffalo 1/4
UT-San Antonio 3/8
UVA 2/4

 

[Dr Manhattan]

St Vincents & Tufts are obvious contenders for being unfilled every year. They both have a similar reputation amongst the interviewees. I am shocked with the remainder -- Mayo... I guess they underestimated how much we factor location into our choices. Im assuming the underinterviewed and then underranked. UTSA... I turned down their interview because I was not looking for a categorical program.. but I thought they were a solid program in Texas, behind TIRR and UTSW.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm....

 

[canal]

ok, second time. Why would st. vincent...or tufts be contenders to go unfilled?

 

[PMR2008]

MAYO!! wow. I am speechless. One of the top 5 programs having 2 unfilled spots is truly shocking. UVA is a decent program as well. But overall there were a few less unfilled spots than last year which I guess signifies that PM&R is getting more competitive every year. Tufts, Buffalo and St. Vincents are considered weak programs. You can read a review of the program in these threads

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332086&page=2&highlight=vincent

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=563591&highlight=tufts

 

[pete27]

Below are the 12 unfilled spots listed on the NRMP website in a file called "Match Outcomes For All Institutions By State 2009":


Tufts had 2/4 unfilled
Mayo 2/8
St. Vincents 2/4
Buffalo 1/4
UT-San Antonio 3/8
UVA 2/4

are these unfilled spots pre-scramble or post? does anyone know if any filled during the scramble?

 

[Taus]

are these unfilled spots pre-scramble or post? does anyone know if any filled during the scramble?

Pre-scramble

I would assume that the majority filled during the scramble, but I can't say for sure.

 

[MSKalltheway]

MAYO!! wow. I am speechless. One of the top 5 programs having 2 unfilled spots is truly shocking. UVA is a decent program as well. But overall there were a few less unfilled spots than last year which I guess signifies that PM&R is getting more competitive every year. Tufts, Buffalo and St. Vincents are considered weak programs. You can read a review of the program in these threads

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332086&page=2&highlight=vincent

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=563591&highlight=tufts

Is Buffalo really considered weak? My impression was that Buffalo was decent. Though not considered as strong as Mayo, it is in the same boat in the sense that location would be an issue for many applicants.

I feel like places like Mayo and UVA went unfilled because they chose to as opposed to other reasons.

 

[Dr Manhattan]

Pre-scramble

I would assume that the majority filled during the scramble, but I can't say for sure.

I was told by a classmate who was trying to scramble that as of 3pm last tuesday, only the st. vincent spots were open. im assuming they have all filled.

 

[Dr Manhattan]

Is Buffalo really considered weak? My impression was that Buffalo was decent. Though not considered as strong as Mayo, it is in the same boat in the sense that location would be an issue for many applicants.

I feel like places like Mayo and UVA went unfilled because they chose to as opposed to other reasons.

Disagreed... they probably under-interviewed or under-ranked applicants. It happens sometimes in the match. My bet is that they didnt rank enough, with the idea that they would fill within their first 10-30 ranked applicants.

 

[Dr. Ice]

the field is becoming more competitive, but the job market for physiatrists is tanking before our very eyes. Probably because there is not enough pain to go around for the number of pain docs that get churned out each year...

 

[PMR2008]

I bet they are all filled but I guess it's probably worth it to give them a quick call if you are looking for a spot.

 

[oreosandsake]

the field is becoming more competitive, but the job market for physiatrists is tanking before our very eyes.

not to thread jack but -

I only hear these statements about a few fields...

pm&r and pathology.

not sure why... but it does seem very scary.

there is a lot of buzz everywhere I go now (rotations, conferences, etc) about students wanting to apply for PM&R and then hearing attendings (?) say that the job market is in the gutter is very disheartening. 🙁

I've had rotations at a top 10 rehab hospital and noticed that there are more internists there that run the floors than physiatrists. (overwhelmingly, about 4:1 ratio)

is it like that at other inpt rehab hospitals as well?

 

[Taus]

the field is becoming more competitive, but the job market for physiatrists is tanking before our very eyes.

Are these your observations in NYC only?
If not, what areas have you personally heard of or experienced this in?
Are you talking about "general" PM&R or some/all specific practice types?

I'm not worried, as I've heard it's quite the opposite, with the caveat that it's always somewhat tougher to break into areas w/ very saturated markets (w/o connections). Just trying to see where you're coming from w/ this

 

[Disciple]

the field is becoming more competitive, but the job market for physiatrists is tanking before our very eyes. Probably because there is not enough pain to go around for the number of pain docs that get churned out each year...

😕

Anywhere there are Ortho spine or Neurosurgeons, there are jobs for Physiatrists.

or are you referring to the field as a whole?

 

[SSdoc33]

no idea what you guys are talking about. my sense is that there are plenty of jobs for physiatrists. i got a job i wanted, but i could have had several that i didnt. dont freak yourselves out. you chose pmr for a good reason, leave that second guessing/grass-is-always-greener for your marraige, not your career

 

[Dr Manhattan]

😕

Anywhere there are Ortho spine or Neurosurgeons, there are jobs for Physiatrists.

or are you referring to the field as a whole?

Agree 100%. The job market is only disappearing if you are not ready for the rigors of private practice. You have to find your business and create you niche. Alot of people go into fields like ER and IM for the potential of shift work or being a employee (aka slave) to the hospital. If you have a little bit of business savvy and the creativity to develop the practice the way you want... pm&r is a field of endless oppurtunity

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

Can anyone say they personally know an unemployed physiatrist?

Not everyone gets their dream job - there's always sacrafices to be made. But there are plenty of jobs.

 

[Disciple]

i got a job i wanted, but i could have had several that i didnt.

Yes, that's what alot of residents don't realize. There are plenty of jobs available. You may not be able to match up your desired starting salary, partnership tract and location (down to your chosen zipcode), but nobody is going to be out or work whether in General Physiatry or whatever their chosen subspecialty may be.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Im just speaking from being on the job hunt right now. I have a good amount of collegues in Spine/Pain/MSK fellowships (not only in NY, but also chicago, CA, florida, ohio) who are having no luck finding the "right fit" as far as jobs.

Im assuming that none of them want to be a surgeon's monkey...ie...doing one or two ILESI on patients and then shipping them off to surgery secondary to "failure of conservative management." Maybe thats why we are finding it tough out there.

Incidentally, did anyone catch Obama's conference last night? I lost count at the number of times he stated the need to cut back on "healthcare costs", which indirectly means slashing reimbursement, ie, doctors are gonna get f**ked, particularly those of us doing "unnecessary procedures" especially without any real substantial research to support what we do...hmmmm....

 

[Ludicolo]

Im just speaking from being on the job hunt right now. I have a good amount of collegues in Spine/Pain/MSK fellowships (not only in NY, but also chicago, CA, florida, ohio) who are having no luck finding the "right fit" as far as jobs.

Im assuming that none of them want to be a surgeon's monkey...ie...doing one or two ILESI on patients and then shipping them off to surgery secondary to "failure of conservative management." Maybe thats why we are finding it tough out there.

You’re on the front line right now in the job search, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. These are tough times, and I’ll grant you the market probably isn’t as good as it has been in years past. For a lot of grads, I think this is their first time really pounding the pavement looking for a job, and it can be discouraging. But rest assured - if you got skills and aren’t a jerk - there are still jobs to be had. Even in NYC. I know several recent grads (some excellent, some questionable) who landed gigs there. Some are in private practice, some academic. Some pain/MSK based, some general physiatry. A decent mix.

As others have said, you may not land the perfect job right off the bat. You may have to take a job, gain some experience and suck it up for a year or two before moving on to greener pastures. Be prepared when opportunity presents itself. Doctors change jobs all the time. Part of finding your way in the world.

And understand this: no matter where you go, no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are…your first year out in practice is HARD.

 

[Bleurberry]

Incidentally, did anyone catch Obama's conference last night? I lost count at the number of times he stated the need to cut back on "healthcare costs", which indirectly means slashing reimbursement, ie, doctors are gonna get f**ked, particularly those of us doing "unnecessary procedures" especially without any real substantial research to support what we do...hmmmm....

Like open-heart surgery when a stent would do; or back surgery when rehab would do. But I tend to make these calculations based on him being a fair-minded and sensible person, which he's thus far demonstrated himself to be (in my humble opinion).

 

[AviatorDoc]

Alrighty... so.... um.... getting back to the OP...

Some programs underinterview and underrank. Mayo went unmatched my year as well (2005). UT-SA is a bit suprising, but you never know. There are clearly more applicants who want PM&R than positions available, so other than the rare exception where someone drops out of a program, there probably isn't a lot of opportunity to scramble outside of the Scramble.

Never wanting to disparage other programs, I interviewed at Tufts, and chose not to rank them. This had very little to do with Tufts, and more to do with Boston. (No offense Bostonians... great sports teams, intellectually stimulating environment... but factor in weather and Cost of Living, and you can have it.)

 

[drvlad2004]

You’re on the front line right now in the job search, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. These are tough times, and I’ll grant you the market probably isn’t as good as it has been in years past. For a lot of grads, I think this is their first time really pounding the pavement looking for a job, and it can be discouraging. But rest assured - if you got skills and aren’t a jerk - there are still jobs to be had. Even in NYC. I know several recent grads (some excellent, some questionable) who landed gigs there. Some are in private practice, some academic. Some pain/MSK based, some general physiatry. A decent mix.

As others have said, you may not land the perfect job right off the bat. You may have to take a job, gain some experience and suck it up for a year or two before moving on to greener pastures. Be prepared when opportunity presents itself. Doctors change jobs all the time. Part of finding your way in the world.

And understand this: no matter where you go, no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are…your first year out in practice is HARD.

Thank you! Your statements are exactly how I feel about the job search process right now. Finding the right fit even after fellowship is very difficult. It already feels that the first year out will be harder. At least I do not feel alone.

 

[Finally M3]

Job hunt kinda stinks; having to balance out job specifics (overhead, payor mix, stability of practice, etc.) with significant others overall comfort level with area

Seriously sux leaving the opportunity of a better practice for domestic tranquility.

 

[ampaphb]

Im just speaking from being on the job hunt right now. I have a good amount of collegues in Spine/Pain/MSK fellowships (not only in NY, but also chicago, CA, florida, ohio) who are having no luck finding the "right fit" as far as jobs.

Im assuming that none of them want to be a surgeon's monkey...ie...doing one or two ILESI on patients and then shipping them off to surgery secondary to "failure of conservative management." Maybe thats why we are finding it tough out there.

Incidentally, did anyone catch Obama's conference last night? I lost count at the number of times he stated the need to cut back on "healthcare costs", which indirectly means slashing reimbursement, ie, doctors are gonna get f**ked, particularly those of us doing "unnecessary procedures" especially without any real substantial research to support what we do...hmmmm....

Before anyone takes Dr. Ice's doom and gloom pronouncement too terribly seriously, might want consider the source, and remember he has been singing this same tired "everything about pm&r sucks" song for a VERY long time

The residency training in PM&R is, in my opinion a complete waste of time. I had the same thoughts as you as I was going through my PGY2 year, and then it got worse when I was in my PGY3 year. PGY4 year was ok, but I was one of those "chiefs" and had to do a lot of administrative bs. Consult service was crap, inpatient even worse, and I found that I was really just putting people in PT during outpatient....I felt like you could probably train a chimp to do what I was doing.

I feel like you will probably learn the most and appreciate what you do during your first year as an attending (perhaps even during fellowship). As an attending this year, I am making my own decisions, doing EMGs without supervision, and learning a lot about billing/coding. Its def a trial and error period, but I am learning more so far than I did during my entire residency.

Keep your head up...it will get better...at least a little. But if you feel like you really "wanna make a difference" then you should have probably gone into peds or OB/GYN....

take it from someone who has completed his residency training in NY and who has heard about job opportunities in NY/NJ. IT SUCKS!!!! There is way too much competition and the salaries are def not comparable with the rest of the country... even if you do interventional. I know someone who just completed a one year accredited PM&R spine fellowship and who is now only making $180 base in jersey.

Part of the reason NY grads are "disenchanted" is because of the influence of disheartened attendings (I have encountered my fair share), and the overall sub-par training that we recieve in NY. Way too much inpatient...not enough exposure to procedures, etc. If you are hard pressed to stay in NY...you better marry rich, or hope to win the lottery, because your salary probably wont even be able to support the eventual $6/gallon for gas that we will all be facing...

As for me...Im probably gonna end up practicing in Billings, Montana, where I will have to take my chances with ex-klan members and cow tipping for fun...

I think its interesting that a medical student is suggesting that a senior resident in the field is "disillusioned." Thats just kinda funny. That being said, I guess I just thought the field was going to be different. I was burnt out after med school and wanted to take the "path of least resistence." Unfortunately, it back fired. All the attendings I talk to make it seem as though they have to "***** themselves out" to get business in the outpatient setting. My own attendings even tell me the same thing. If you join an orthopedic or neurosurgical practice, they will never make you partner. If you join a physiatric practice, it might be ok, but referrals will probably always be an issue. If you think about it, our field overlaps a lot of other fields. Chances are that orthopods have better MSK skills than us, neurologists are better at diagnosing neurological disorders, and psychiatrists are probably better at identifying malingerers/drug seekers. It kinda makes you wonder, what the need for us really is.

Im sure people on this site will write all kinds of nasty things to me now that I am saying all this stuff. Again, its all about perspective. This is just my view of the field. Im sure others are having a great experience and wouldnt dream of doing anything else.

Having gone through three years of training in this field, however, I do question how anyone can truly have a passion for rehab medicine. I personally think that is a little weird.

 

[Dr Manhattan]

negativity is an understatement.

 

[Ludicolo]

Before anyone takes Dr. Ice's doom and gloom pronouncement too terribly seriously, might want consider the source, and remember he has been singing this same tired "everything about pm&r sucks" song for a VERY long time

Yeah, every time Dr. Ice posts it does seem the sky is falling. But he doesn't post very often, so when he posts like this I figure it's all done for the sake of venting. That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt on this one. But his last quote you cited is telling - choosing rehab because it is "the path of least resistance" is a setup for disaster.

 

[Karaoke]

I actually just recently decided to apply for private practice group jobs. It's only been about two weeks, but I'm already very pleased with several of the opportunities out there. There are a lot of people looking to expand their group, and people looking to start a group. Free-standing rehab hospitals also seem to be cropping up all over the place, if you're into that sort of thing. I'm actually very pleased, and I assume I will land something soon that is to my liking.

It probably helps that I have no desire to stay in NYC. I imagine it would be slim pickins if I wanted to stay here, but I'm not from here and don't really like the high cost of living anyway, so I have no problem looking for jobs elsewhere. It looks to me like this country is wide open for rehab docs once you get away from NYC, where it's probably hard to get job no matter what specialty you're in. Well, southern California looks pretty tough too. But just about anywhere else, they need more of us. Personally, I think the market looks favorable for us overall. Wow, I sound very pollyanna-ish now that I'm reading my own post.