Podiatry Jobs?

[efs]

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Rose13,

Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with your definition of physician? A website? A quick look through my dictionary fials to reveal the word "entire" in the definition. As far as that goes, Medicare, Medicaid and the US government do consider DPMs to be physicians. DPMs hold a limited license to practice medicine, it fits everything in the definition of physicians but is limited to the lower extremity.

Frankly it is a matter of semantics. Physicians, be it DPM, MD, DO or whatever might better be refered to as clinicians. The REAL doctors are the PhDs. (How many of the above have to write and defend an original thesis?) What is your take on the JDs? are they "Doctors" or not? Would they fit the definition?

 

[rose13]

For purposes of practicing allopathic/osteopathic medicine, my definition comes from several sources, among them, the AMA, conversations with MD's, and state legislation (scope of practice definitions); the legal definition of a physician supercedes the dictionary definition. Managed care, Medicare, and Medicaid consider DPM's, OD's, NP's, and PA's to be non-physician health care providers. This means individuals in these professions are not physicians, though they have a LIMITED license to treat and diagnose within the scope of their education, whereas MD's and DO's have an unlimited license.

PhDs do not write a thesis; they write a dissertation. Believe it or not, there is a difference (I have a master's degree and wrote a thesis; at the same time I was working on my thesis, one of my friends was working on her dissertation for her PhD). The JD is no longer a terminal degree, though it is a secondary degree. However, it is still used to denote one who has obtained a law degree. I think that this is because of tradition, as the LL.M is a recent development in law (I am not a lawyer, so feel free to disagree with my reasoning in reference to the JD and LL.M designations).

The "D" in MD, DO, DPM, DDS, OD, JD, PhD, Pharm-D, DVM--they all denote "doctor." The inherent nature of these curricula is a very specific focus (except for recent developments in law), cumulating in the awarding of a terminal degree. Thus the "D" is incorporated into the title of the degree.

(By the way, did you know that the PhD is also a recent development; not too long ago, the master's degree was the terminal degree.)

 

[Toejam]

efs has a point, rose. Podiatrists are considered physicians by any definition by the U.S. Government as well as most states in the U.S. How do you reconcile this with your line of thinking? The only branches of medicine considered physicians by the U.S. Government are MD's, DO's and DPM's. This is just a fact. (I'm not sure, actually, where they place DDS's). Three things that separate DPM's from the "non-physician health care providers" that you mentioned are that we have an unlimited D.E.A license (just like MD's and DO's), can perform any type of surgery below the knee and can admit a patient into a hospital. No other non-physican health care provider can do these things. Again, I'm not sure about a dentist, but I know what a podiatrist is able to do.
The confusing aspect to all of this is that not all states in the country hold the same opinion.

I agree with you, however, in that MD's and DO's are trained to be "whole body" doctors whereas podiatrists are not. This is why I'm not sure how to categorize podiatrists (I am a DPM in case you didn't know). After saying all of that, I am of the opinion that a podiatrist really shouldn't be considered a physician, but something in between a doctor and a physician.

One thing I want to say, though, is that I'm guessing that you know very little about a podiatrist's education and training. It would probably surprise you to know that we study nearly everything that an MD or DO student does and we do residencies very much like MD's and DO's. In my residency, for example, I was assisting in all kinds of surgeries (not just lower extremity), was responsible for all types of patients in my internal medicine rotation (AID's, terminal lung cancer, end-stage renal disease, etc), treated all types of patients in my derm rotation, etc., etc. In our residencies, we are treated like any other intern or resident.

It's open for debate, but unless you know what a podiatrist does or what type of education they have gone through, you might want to suspend judgment until you hear the whole story.

 

[rose13]

Originally posted by Toejam
efs has a point, rose. Podiatrists are considered physicians by any definition by the U.S. Government as well as most states in the U.S. How do you reconcile this with your line of thinking? The only branches of medicine considered physicians by the U.S. Government are MD's, DO's and DPM's. This is just a fact. (I'm not sure, actually, where they place DDS's). Three things that separate DPM's from the "non-physician health care providers" that you mentioned are that we have an unlimited D.E.A license (just like MD's and DO's), can perform any type of surgery below the knee and can admit a patient into a hospital. No other non-physican health care provider can do these things.

I agree with you, however, in that MD's and DO's are trained to be "whole body" doctors whereas podiatrists are not. This is why I'm not sure how to categorize podiatrists (I am a DPM in case you didn't know). After saying all of that, I am of the opinion that a podiatrist really shouldn't be considered a physician, but something in between a doctor and a physician.

One thing I want to say, though, is that I'm guessing that you know very little about a podiatrist's education and training. It would probably surprise you to know that we study nearly everything that an MD or DO student does and we do residencies very much like MD's and DO's. In my residency, for example, I was assisting in all kinds of surgeries (not just lower extremity), was responsible for all types of patients in my internal medicine rotation (AID's, terminal lung cancer, end-stage renal disease, etc), treated all types of patients in my derm rotation, etc., etc. In our residencies, we are treated like any other intern or resident.

It's open for debate, but unless you know what a podiatrist does or what type of education they have gone through, you might want to suspend judgment until you hear the whole story.

It is not my intent to dispute your education, or bad-mouth your training. One of my friends quit podiatry school after the 2nd year, so via conversations with her, I know that much of the podiatric curriculum mirrors the medical college curriculum. All I mentioned is from my research. For example, if podiatrists were considered "physicians," then why does the military (a branch of the US government) classify them as medical service corps personnel rather than medical corps personnel (MD's and DO's); this I know from personal experience.

As far as the unlimited license, this is more of a state (10th amendment) legislative issue; many other non-physician health care providers are currently seeking the same privledges that MD's/DO's have and it is only a matter of time before they get them, especially NP's.

I just find it interesting that at least one podiatry school (I have the literature) compares podiatry to allopathic medicine. This is why I make the points I make; not to demean the profession in anyway, but to note that podiatrists are not physicians; they are non-physician health care providers. It is also interesting to note that this literature does not mention "podiatrist" and "physician" in the same sentence, or attempts to make them synonymous. In fact, it does not even mention "physician" at all; rather, it notes that the podiatrist will be a doctor.

I think prospective students should know the difference, because they should not pay an obscene amount of money for a degree that will not give what they are lead to believe.

 

[ItsGavinC]

This isn't directly related to the podiatry issue, but it has been rasied and I know the answers, so I'll post.

The US Code lists the definition of a physician in the government's eyes to be thus: " any individual employed and licensed as a physician (MD/DO) or dentist (DMD/DDS)."

Toejam,

You mentioned that "we have an unlimited D.E.A license (just like MD's and DO's)". Are you inferring that you can prescribe schedule 2 drugs? BTW, the same DEA licenses are available to dentists that are available to other prescribing physicians (MD/DO/DPM/DVM).

NOTE: I changed my post to read "schedule 2 drugs". Originally it read "schedule 5 drugs", which was incorrect, as Toejam pointed out.

 

[Toejam]

When I said "unlimited license" I meant that we have the same rights and responsibilities to prescribe any medication that an MD or DO can. There is no difference in our prescription authority. We can prescribe morphine and oxycontin just like other doctors.

 

[Toejam]

BTW, schedule 5 drugs are the most innocuous class. I think you meant schedule 2. Schedule 1 drugs are generally for research (LSD, heroin, etc.)

 

[cg2a93]

Some states we are considered physicians some we are not, who cares. Podiatrist can still perform any surgical procedure prescribe any meds for the leg that a MD or DO can. The fact remains the MD/DO community doesnt consider pods to be physicians nor do some parts of the government.
I think you guys sometimes get caught up in semantics. The purpose of either PROFESSION is supposed to be to relieve pain and treat ailments. All this you are a nonphysician, physican stuff means what? Pod treat their patients perscribe meds do sx just like MDs and DOs and DDS and some ODs whether you want to call them physicians doctors or nosepickers its just another way to categorize doctors.
When it comes down to it is all Medicine and a JOB not who you are, but what you do for a living.

 

[Toejam]

cg is right. It's so ridiculous how we all get caught up in this semantical battle.

I don't care what someone calls me as long as they don't call me late for dinner.

 

[ItsGavinC]

True to that, I'm in complete agreeance.

But on another note, this thread has been the best one on SDN for the past while, so I'm hesitant to let it die. Therefore...

cg said "When it comes down to it is all Medicine and a JOB not who you are, but what you do for a living."

Isn't that the root of what this thread was about in the first place? DPMs aren't doing ANYTHING (read: new grads have to wait tables, etc. to bring home the bacon), hence the problem.

 

[cg2a93]

I feeling kinda uneasy with toejam agreeing with me. Toejam, cut that out!!!

 

[ItsGavinC]

kinda kinky, eh?

 

[Toejam]

I don't always want to be adversarial!

I still have my opinions on podiatry and the path taken to become a DPM, but I also believe that in the real world it doesn't matter what you're called, as long as you do the job.

I want to emphasize that I do not have any problems with DPM's themselves, nor do I think that they are inferior to MD's or DO's in any way. I know for a fact that DPM's ARE the experts in the lower extremity and do a far better job than their MD or DO counterparts in diagnosing and treating LE ailments.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Cool thread. I just spent about 20 minutes reading every single post. I never knew there was so much division in this field. Although I admit that I didn't know much about the field, period.

Just a question though: if you guys are so into feet and doing "below knee surgery", then why not go to med school and become an orthopedic surgeon? That way you get to do a hell of a lot more surgery, make a hell of a lot more cash, and have a hell of a lot more career opportunity. From what you guys say, the length of school, and cost is roughly the same as an MD education/training. Why podiatry then?

Peace.

 

[Toejam]

In my opinion, which certainly will not be voiced by everyone, is that the vast majority of pod students also applied to MD and DO school, but lacked the grades and/or MCAT scores to get in.