Poll: MCAT vs GPA

[Shredder]

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I'll cast the first ballot for MCAT

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I'll cast the first ballot for MCAT

I second that motion.

 

[Booyakasha]

It depends... there is an element of luck involved with the MCAT; some people do better with different test forms, and AdComs probably know this. I think that as long as a person's MCAT scores are in a reasonable range, it does not really matter. For instance, at a school where the average MCAT score is a 35, I don't think a 36 is looked upon too much more favorably than a 34 (assuming "balanced" scores").

GPA, on the other hand, is over a long period of time and is therefore a better predictor of overall success (assuming, of course, that the curriculum the individual is pursuing is rigorous). A small difference in GPA, with consideration of which classes accounted for those differences, might be more significant.

Another point is that the most tested ability on the MCAT is the ability to process verbal information. This is a very narrow gauge of human intelligence; sure, scientific principles are tested, but every problem on the test is channeled through a verbal pathway. Many truly brilliant people cannot/were not able to process verbal information very well (Einstein is a great example). Anyways, just a dissenting opinion for you to think about.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Another point is that the most tested ability on the MCAT is the ability to process verbal information. This is a very narrow gauge of human intelligence; sure, scientific principles are tested, but every problem on the test is channeled through a verbal pathway. Many truly brilliant people cannot/were not able to process verbal information very well (Einstein is a great example). Anyways, just a dissenting opinion for you to think about.

Mmmm, actually, I think the MCAT is a better indicator of your intellectual ability. First off, it's an actual concerted test of ability. GPA does span over years, but all that means is it just reflects your ability to work hard on take-home homework assignments and stuff like that. Performance is what matters, and the MCAT tests performance. Hell, I have A's in classes, of which I have no recollection of the material! Example: multivariate calculus. I would have no idea right now how to convert from Euclidean 3-D geometry to spherical coordinates for triple integration purposes (and also I have a very faint idea of the polar coordinate geometry... r cos theta and whatnot 🙂 )

Anyway, as for the ability to process verbal information, that is really critical to a person's intellectual capacity. The language of intellect is weaved in the ability to reason, and if you cannot reason verbally, that means that (a.) you cannot comprehend other people's ideas, and (b.) you cannot convey or express your own ideas. The MCAT is a great measure of these abilities and adcoms should strive to select candidates they feel have good skills in these arenas.

(As a final side note, I believe Einstein actually was better at processing and expressing verbal information than mathematical information. This is a common misconception. In his younger days, Einstein actually failed mathematics. The genius of his theory of relativity lied within its ability to verbally express very complicated mathematical ideas. I believe his exact manner of thinking was, "Imagine that you are sitting on a ray of light..." and an expansion of this idea. Other prominent figures in the field of theoretical physics - Richard Feynmann for example - also follow this lead of verbal acuity in their incredibly intuitive and readable lecture materials. If you are interested, just read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, and you will see how brilliance and mastery of language are very intricately interwoven.)

 

[tank you]

well, if i have any chance of getting in, i hope to god its mcat

 

[Booyakasha]

Mmmm, actually, I think the MCAT is a better indicator of your intellectual ability. First off, it's an actual concerted test of ability. GPA does span over years, but all that means is it just reflects your ability to work hard on take-home homework assignments and stuff like that. Performance is what matters, and the MCAT tests performance. Hell, I have A's in classes, of which I have no recollection of the material! Example: multivariate calculus. I would have no idea right now how to convert from Euclidean 3-D geometry to spherical coordinates for triple integration purposes (and also I have a very faint idea of the polar coordinate geometry... r cos theta and whatnot 🙂 )

Anyway, as for the ability to process verbal information, that is really critical to a person's intellectual capacity. The language of intellect is weaved in the ability to reason, and if you cannot reason verbally, that means that (a.) you cannot comprehend other people's ideas, and (b.) you cannot convey or express your own ideas. The MCAT is a great measure of these abilities and adcoms should strive to select candidates they feel have good skills in these arenas.

(As a final side note, I believe Einstein actually was better at processing and expressing verbal information than mathematical information. This is a common misconception. In his younger days, Einstein actually failed mathematics. The genius of his theory of relativity lied within its ability to verbally express very complicated mathematical ideas. I believe his exact manner of thinking was, "Imagine that you are sitting on a ray of light..." and an expansion of this idea. Other prominent figures in the field of theoretical physics - Richard Feynmann for example - also follow this lead of verbal acuity in their incredibly intuitive and readable lecture materials. If you are interested, just read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, and you will see how brilliance and mastery of language are very intricately interwoven.)

OK... a distinction needs to be made between perceiving verbal information and eliciting verbal information. Having exceptional control of a language does not necessarily imply excellence in its perception (especially written). Also, regarding Einsein, I think you are grossly wrong. He did not fail mathematics either, this is a myth. He also did not learn how to speak until he was 3. His spatial abilities and visualization capacities were what really led him to his theories.

One question:

How do you make observations about the universe, as Einstein did, using verbal abilities??? Does matter have words printed on it???? More relevant: do patients have sentences printed on their bodies telling their physicians what condition they have? This may seem stupid, but think about it.

Also, the MCAT is not an excellent test of your ability. It is only one test. Lots of variables cannot be controlled for in this situation. And remembering information is secondary to reasoning ability, which the MCAT does not test for very well (there is evidence for this).

Oh, and what exactly is "performance"? You seem to be just throwing around words here.

 

[Booyakasha]

Here are some more thoughts:

This inability to perceive verbal information is often termed "dyslexia," of which there are varying degrees. Many geniuses have had this condition, including (speculatively based on historical records) Edison, DaVinci, and many others (type in "dyslexia" and "genius" into Google and see what you get).

Also, Einstein was doing calculus when he was 12. The reason why he didnt get into that Swiss polytech school was because he hadn't mastered the French language, which was required.

I just think the MCAT is excluding the assessment of abilities that are crucial. Also, GPA doesn't just rely on "take home" assignments--I don't know which university/college you attend, but that surely isn't the mark of a reputable institution.

 

[SpeedRacer]

gpa is so relative. having just done a postbac program, i know that i used to study a billion hours for an exam in undergrad and get a C, and study like 1 hour for an exam in postbac and get an A.

 

[gujuDoc]

The reason I don't agree that GPA is a better predictor then MCAT is because there are some people who get by college by studying old tests, and others who get by because of the great curves where some classes have 85 as an A or 75 as a B, and others have that same 85 as a B and 75 as a C. Also, with plus/minus systems, that can make a difference in grades as they appear on the transcript. Furthermore, you have to take into account a 3.9 in an easy major is not the same as in a hard science or engineering major, etc.

Next, you got to take into account that some schools are harder then others in the way they make their tests, etc. i.e. Harvard's 3.9 may not be the same as earning a 3.9 from a lower tier school, because the course work make have been harder in one school then another.

Also, as someone pointed out, the MCAT tests your ability to actually retain this information and apply it, whereas some classes just test your ability to memorize facts.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

one is an indicator of what the other lacks so you definitely need both; either alone would be an incomplete evaluation of a candidate. It's all in learning as much as you can of the student overall. Likewise i think their PS, ECs, volunteer services and interview are also important components in evaluating the whole person.

 

[sasoor]

well, if i have any chance of getting in, i hope to god its mcat

cant agree more

 

[Booyakasha]

one is an indicator of what the other lacks so you definitely need both; either alone would be an incomplete evaluation of a candidate. It's all in learning as much as you can of the student overall. Likewise i think their PS, ECs, volunteer services and interview are also important components in evaluating the whole person.

Agreed. I just don't think the MCAT is a very good test; GPA is not a very good indicator either, but I think that it is slightly better than the MCAT (slightly being the key word). I think that med schools should ask for IQ or SAT scores in addition to everything else. These tests are better measures of intelligence than both MCAT and GPA.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I just think the MCAT is excluding the assessment of abilities that are crucial. Also, GPA doesn't just rely on "take home" assignments--I don't know which university/college you attend, but that surely isn't the mark of a reputable institution.

That's a really insightful observation. You are absolutely right, the creators of the MCAT (namely, doctors and PhD's) and those who oversee it (the Association of American Medical Colleges) have definitely formulated a test that excludes the assessment of abilities that are crucial to medicine. What could I have been possibly thinking?

And yeah, you're right, "take home" assignments are totally crap. I mean, in my three years of engineering undergraduate coursework, all those homework assignments and projects that I did outside of class were totally worthless and indicate how disreputable UVa's School of Engineering is. Actually, now that I think about it, EVERY class that involves any work outside of the class setting is totally worthless and a bad class. All those papers I wrote for my humanities classes - those 10 page honkers that exercised my writing abilities, which of course is not relevant to medical school since I never plan to communicate with patients or other doctors - were not important to my grade in those classes.

GOSH, honestly, I was debating whether or not to respond to this but what you wrote is just absurd. You're telling me you've never taken a class that didn't have homework, or papers due, or projects or anything other than in-class quizzes and tests??? I think you're missing the point here: what I'm saying is that classes tend to give you lots of opportunity to excel in them. When you have a homework assignment, you have tons of time to work on it, you get to use your notes / materials and you even get to collaborate with peers (assuming you don't merely copy and paste their work, and as long as you cite your collaboration.) It's not uncommon for pre-meds to "work together" in their classes and then they all get A's. Whoopty-doo. The MCAT tests you ability to perform, period. GPA is not nearly as good as that.

Yes, I agree that GPA is important to some degree, but the question posted by the OP was what med schools should emphasize more, and I say MCAT.


(edit: and just out of curiosity, how would you plan to share your observations about anything without some verbal application? You do realize that medicine is about more than just one doctor at work, right? Do you know how they handle brain cancer patients here at our hospital? A huge team of doctors and phd's get together and tackle each case as a team. Pathologists, researchers, molecular biologists, neurologists, oncology, all have to work together and if you can't express or comprehend the ideas being set on the table, forget about it. OH and a final note, in case you can't pick up on my hostile tone, I don't appreciate the low blow at my institution. Normally I don't like to be such a pissy person, but I take offense at any subtle insult to my school 👎 .)

 

[Booyakasha]

That's a really insightful observation. You are absolutely right, the creators of the MCAT (namely, doctors and PhD's) and those who oversee it (the Association of American Medical Colleges) have definitely formulated a test that excludes the assessment of abilities that are crucial to medicine. What could I have been possibly thinking?

And yeah, you're right, "take home" assignments are totally crap. I mean, in my three years of engineering undergraduate coursework, all those homework assignments and projects that I did outside of class were totally worthless and indicate how disreputable UVa's School of Engineering is. Actually, now that I think about it, EVERY class that involves any work outside of the class setting is totally worthless and a bad class. All those papers I wrote for my humanities classes - those 10 page honkers that exercised my writing abilities, which of course is not relevant to medical school since I never plan to communicate with patients or other doctors - were not important to my grade in those classes.

GOSH, honestly, I was debating whether or not to respond to this but what you wrote is just absurd. You're telling me you've never taken a class that didn't have homework, or papers due, or projects or anything other than in-class quizzes and tests??? I think you're missing the point here: what I'm saying is that classes tend to give you lots of opportunity to excel in them. When you have a homework assignment, you have tons of time to work on it, you get to use your notes / materials and you even get to collaborate with peers (assuming you don't merely copy and paste their work, and as long as you cite your collaboration.) It's not uncommon for pre-meds to "work together" in their classes and then they all get A's. Whoopty-doo. The MCAT tests you ability to perform, period. GPA is not nearly as good as that.

Yes, I agree that GPA is important to some degree, but the question posted by the OP was what med schools should emphasize more, and I say MCAT.


(edit: and just out of curiosity, how would you plan to share your observations about anything without some verbal application? You do realize that medicine is about more than just one doctor at work, right? Do you know how they handle brain cancer patients here at our hospital? A huge team of doctors and phd's get together and tackle each case as a team. Pathologists, researchers, molecular biologists, neurologists, oncology, all have to work together and if you can't express or comprehend the ideas being set on the table, forget about it. OH and a final note, in case you can't pick up on my hostile tone, I don't appreciate the low blow at my institution. Normally I don't like to be such a pissy person, but I take offense at any subtle insult to my school 👎 .)

What I wrote about take home assignments is not absurd. In most of my classes, the biggest part of the grade are the in-class exams. These assignments are important in their own respect too, and writing papers is important. I am just saying that most math and science classes (which I should have noted) place a particular emphasis on exams and understanding the material. I am not knocking your school, I was just making a point.

Also, I am not saying that verbal abilities are worthless, I am just saying that the MCAT does not test other elements of human intelligence very well. Verbal skills are very important... so are spatial skills, mathematical skills, etc. Sorry, I was posting at 2 am and I should have presented things a little more clearly.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

According to every ADCOM member I've spoken to (2 at UCSD, 1 at UCLA, 1 at UCD), GPA is more important than MCAT. The axiom is that the MCAT doesnt get you in anywhere, it just keeps you out.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I'd much prefer a 39 MCAT and a 3.3 GPA
than a 3.9 GPA and a 24 MCAT.

MCAT is far more important from what I've heard from advisory committees.
But a balance is good.

👍

 

[Shredder]

According to every ADCOM member I've spoken to (2 at UCSD, 1 at UCLA, 1 at UCD), GPA is more important than MCAT. The axiom is that the MCAT doesnt get you in anywhere, it just keeps you out.

ive heard the same about personal statement. so are med school apps just a process of weeding out and seeing whose left, tsk it should be more positive

 

[Biodude]

well, if i have any chance of getting in, i hope to god its mcat

cant agree more

I'm gonna third this one. My GPA is not so great at the moment. Hopefully, my MCAT scores will make up for it. 😳

 

[Lindyhopper]

Somehow I don't think its an accident, that they named it the Medical College Admission Test.

 

[hotdawg]

my brother went to an ivy league school. and his passing grades gave him b's and a's there, where in my state school it was alot harder. but the name is better, of course. plus i heard, thru him and others, they dont fail you out like a state school would. point meaning: i see why the gpa might be more important; but the mcat normalizes things...

i.e harder to get into a really great college; easy to stay in and vice versa. this is not a myth man. it happens.


im sure someone said this already.....heres to all of us getting in. cuz i didnt go to harvard , and i hope thats not a pre req...

 

[hotdawg]

my brother went to an ivy league school. and his passing grades gave him b's and a's there, where in my state school it was alot harder. but the name is better, of course. plus i heard, thru him and others, they dont fail you out like a state school would. point meaning: i see why the gpa might be more important; but the mcat normalizes things...

i.e harder to get into a really great college; easy to stay in and vice versa. this is not a myth man. it happens.


im sure someone said this already.....heres to all of us getting in. cuz i didnt go to harvard , and i hope thats not a pre req...

okay before people from "good schools" get tweaked on me, my brother and i fight about this all the time. if we had the same gpa of course they would take him over me because he went to a better school. but like everyone i am worried about the grades and the mcat has to count for something, or otherwise why have it, dig...

 

[Hoberto]

Agreed. I just don't think the MCAT is a very good test; GPA is not a very good indicator either, but I think that it is slightly better than the MCAT (slightly being the key word). I think that med schools should ask for IQ or SAT scores in addition to everything else. These tests are better measures of intelligence than both MCAT and GPA.

Yeah, IQ scores, that would be cool.

 

[Nutmeg]

Yeah, IQ scores, that would be cool.

Using IQ scores to pick candidates is about the dumbest idea I can imagine.

The whole point of the MCAT is that it isn't just a cognitive indicator; it seeks to measure the degree to which you can learn sciences. If you have high IQ, you can still get a low MCAT score if you didn't pay attention in your prereqs. A ten year old with a 140 IQ is less qualified than a 22 year old with a 120 IQ, assuming the latter had taken all the college prereqs and the former was in the fifth grade. IQ has jack schit to do with medicine.

If you think your situation would be improved by replacing the MCAT score with the IQ score, it seems to me that you probably didn't work hard enough in your prereqs. A person with a high IQ and a low MCAT score can only blame themselves for poor performance in the sciences. The idea that there could be a disagreement between the two scores is precisely why the MCAT is a better way to go.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

i.e harder to get into a really great college; easy to stay in and vice versa. this is not a myth man. it happens.


...

well Cornell is known as being the easiest ivy to get into and the hardest to stay in, plenty of people don't make it, so it's not all cut in stone.

 

[Nutmeg]

And as regards the issue of the verbal quality of the MCAT, one has to consider that the whole point is to look at the person's capacity for med school, where the teaching will be largely verbal and require a great deal of reading. Not making it into med school doesn't mean you have nothing to contriibute, it just means that the medical system and you are not necessarily compatible. There will always be other avenues for academic pursuits for such people--none of da Vinci, Edison, or Einstein got an MD, and they all gave great contributions to science and academia.

 

[Biodude]

And as regards the issue of the verbal quality of the MCAT, one has to consider that the whole point is to look at the person's capacity for med school, where the teaching will be largely verbal and require a great deal of reading. Not making it into med school doesn't mean you have nothing to contriibute, it just means that the medical system and you are not necessarily compatible. There will always be other avenues for academic pursuits for such people--none of da Vinci, Edison, or Einstein got an MD, and they all gave great contributions to science and academia.

Hmm...if this really is the case, then I suppose that I have more potential for med than I thought. Verbal is consistently my highest score on the MCAT practice tests that I've been taking.

Science interests me, as can be gleaned from my username, but I'm not all that interested into going into full-time research or in being a university professor.

Oh, and hotdawg, I emphasize with you. I go to a not-so-prestigious state school myself (Cal State Fullerton), and the science classes here are brutal. In my first year alone, I've watched fellow pre-meds dropping left and right, deciding to choose a different career path to follow instead. I've actually had to work my butt off to score B's in many cases, though I've got my share of A's on top of that.

 

[Hoberto]

Honestly, the best method would be to use GPA, GPA trends, MCAT scores, LORs, personal statements, essays, experience and interviews to determine who is best prepared for medical school.

How about accepting everybody but only handing out MDs to the top 5% or something? Of course, the classes would be larger and the resources would be stretched pretty thin, but imagine how much money the schools would be making.

 

[Shredder]

can we start our own med school and run it as a business with whatever selection criteria we want, then see if we churn out superior doctors to other med schools? this is an idea i want to pursue, if only a little bit

 

[liverotcod]

can we start our own med school and run it as a business with whatever selection criteria we want, then see if we churn out superior doctors to other med schools? this is an idea i want to pursue, if only a little bit

Yes, and the place to do it is in the Caribbean. You've got competition, though.

 

[Shrike]

I think some of you are misinterpretting what Shredder seems to have designed the poll to be: what would you emphasize, not what do ADCOMs emphasize now. If it were the latter, we'd want to poll ADCOMs, not applicants.

I have met quite a few students with high GPAs who couldn't get their MCATs up to par (even with my help, unfortunately), and a fair number who were quite good at the MCAT but had poor (in context) GPAs. There's no way to know who among these people would make good doctors, and who wouldn't, and I certainly have known people in each set whom I really wanted to see succeed and a few others in each set whom I didn't, but overall I'm a lot more comfortable with the idea of the high scorers treating me than the high grade getters doing it. A lot of my biases are included herein, but it is a poll, not a scientific exercise.

Do I recall correctly that the correleation between MCAT scores and USMLE performance is somewhat over 0.5, while grades' correlation with USMLE performance is lower? I don't think this settles the question, but it's worth remembering.

 

[liverotcod]

Do I recall correctly that the correleation between MCAT scores and USMLE performance is somewhat over 0.5, while grades' correlation with USMLE performance is lower? I don't think this settles the question, but it's worth remembering.

The correlation improves markedly when you include both MCAT and GPA, which is why I assume that most schools are going to use some kind of formula, e.g. xGPA + yMCAT where (x,y) are the relative weights, but probably stay pretty close to (10,1). Not necessarily as a cut-off for further evaluation, but as a contributing factor to the whole application.

The details count, too. My own case is perhaps illustrative. I had what I consider a wildly successful application process, beyond anything I hoped for. My uGPA was 2.95 and MCAT was 13-13-13-Q. Somehow, looking at these numbers, adcoms overwhelmingly decided to offer interviews. Using (10,1) as the coefficients, I get (10*2.9) + 39 = 68, making me theoretically equivalent to someone with (10*3.6) + 32 = 68, a much more balanced candidate and probably preferable, all things being equal.

But here's the detail that I think made the difference: my last 50 credits were all As, and much more recent than the old grades.

My point is that the process is likely pretty complex and subjective in most cases.

 

[hotdawg]

i dunno from the ones that went to cornell i heard otherwise ( hard to get in, easy to stay in, but people leave not because its too hard to stay in but other reasons)

 

[Shredder]

Yes, and the place to do it is in the Caribbean. You've got competition, though.

caribbean no thats for subpar applicants, i mean direct competition with the best schools to show everyone that med school selection criteria are bogus. could it be done, starting a private, for profit school? i should propose it in the md mba forum...

 

[liverotcod]

caribbean no thats for subpar applicants, i mean direct competition with the best schools to show everyone that med school selection criteria are bogus. could it be done, starting a private, for profit school? i should propose it in the md mba forum...

No I mean that the regulatory environment in the US would make it very difficult to open a med school here. You could shoot for an osteopathic school, it's my (quite possibly incorrect) impression that they are easier to open. But an offshore school does not have to be for subpar applicants. After all, you're setting the admissions criteria.

 

[Shredder]

regulatory environment, true. man but theres that stigma of foreign schools, and d.o. schools...ill think about it. its not like i can act on it anytime soon anyway. who knows...with enough money anything is possible

 

[sunnyjohn]

How about a three-day interview/testing/audition process??

You take your resume, transcript, LOR’s and EC’s and battle it out with other applicants.

Real world common sense tests. …. You know at the end of the “audition” if you’re in… None of this waiting nonsense!!!

 

[tank you]

who knows...with enough money anything is possible

thats just what the Donald would say.

 

[Hoberto]

How about a three-day interview/testing/audition process??

You take your resume, transcript, LOR’s and EC’s and battle it out with other applicants.

Real world common sense tests. …. You know at the end of the “audition” if you’re in… None of this waiting nonsense!!!

We could televise the whole thing and have people vote on who they think should get in, a la American Idol! 🙂

 

[sunnyjohn]

We could televise the whole thing and have people vote on who they think should get in, a la American Idol! 🙂

Yup!!! No Paua Abdul or Simon!!

 

[Shredder]

yeah your posts gave me a reality idea so i made a new thread on it

 

[sunnyjohn]

yeah your posts gave me a reality idea so i made a new thread on it

I posted in your thread!!

 

[Reimat]

Do I recall correctly that the correleation between MCAT scores and USMLE performance is somewhat over 0.5, while grades' correlation with USMLE performance is lower? I don't think this settles the question, but it's worth remembering.

Yea, I think a crutial part of MCAT value is that they predict USMLE scores. You could have a 4.0, but if it looks like you wont pass the next level of exams, why would a med school accept you? I think general trend of grades counts more than MCAT scores- a GPA that goes down with time is by far worse than scoring a few points lower on the MCAT (i.e., I would think a 3.5 and a 32 is better than a 3.0 and a 35 with the excuse that you were studying for the MCAT- even if that is only a 0.1 difference in overall GPA). Just my thoughts 😀

 

[Holistic]

In my opinion, the MCAT tests two important parts of the medical school applicant.

1) IF he/she really wants to be a doctor?

2) Then even if they want it bad will they be able to handle the rigor of the medical school curriculum and board exams?

Lets face it, a Cum GPA from po dunk community college where pre reqs where taken with all A's could equal the same intellect and work ethic required to get all C's in pre reqs at a school like the University of Texas. The MCAT is also very important because no matter how smart you are you still have to prepare like hell to do well on the exam. This weeds out all the people who are getting into medicine for the altruistic idea that lack the work ethic. Let us not forget that no matter how smart someone is they still have to study like hell to pass the board exams so the MCAT helps find people who have the ability to put themselves under that kind of pressure and succeed.

Second, I will catch a lot of sh$% for this statement, but if you study like hell for 4 months with the help of a freaking prep class and you cant break 24 on the MCAT, in most cases you do not have the intellectual capacity to handle medical school. That is a statistical fact that has been proven time and time again to adcoms. That is why they dont like to take chances on scores below 28.

It is a cruel world and entry into the medical profession has many obstacles. The height of this journey is the day you take the MCAT. It is an exam that consumes your life, your thoughts, your emotions, and your spirit. Some succeed and others fail but that is the very thing that makes the world great. Whether I scored a 24 or 34 on the MCAT does not really matter to me. I will know that I studied as hard as I possible could for my own selfish reasons. I want to be a doctor and in order to be a doctor one must take the MCAT. Some here question the validity of the MCAT and claim it is a collective evil against individuals who would make great doctors, but fail to do well on standardized tests. This is a flawed statement for many reasons.

The first reason is the very nature of being a doctor. Sure lots of people can study their tail off and master the material for a college exam, but can they retain that information and not only recall it, but also apply it to new situations. A doctor is faced with new situations and unfamiliar problems daily. The MCAT presents us with the same sort of challenge. We are tested over basic science knowledge in unfamiliar ways. It is testing our ability to formulate answers in novel situations using knowledge we should have retained. This skill is essential in diagnosing disease.

Second, a standardized test gives people a reason to strive for excellence within themselves. The MCAT gave me the opportunity to compete against myself. It gave me a chance to work hard for something I wanted. This test helps measure how bad we all really want to be doctors. If your taking the MCAT to someday help others you are taking the MCAT for the wrong reasons. You take the MCAT for yourself, for your own reasons because you want to be a doctor for you not anyone else. The people who take it for this reason will have the most success because those that do everything for themselves do the best work. This test gives us all the same opportunity to prove our dedication to our work.

Now I am just rambling on but after going through the whole MCAT experience and reflecting on it, I believe the day I took the MCAT was one of the finest days of my life. I went in and took the test for me and no one else, my score will only reflect my hard work compared to others hard work. There will be winners and losers the day the April scores come in, but that is what keeps the medical profession superior to all other. Without losers mediocrity is all that exists. The MCAT enables exceptional individuals the chance to be just that "exceptional".

 

[Mixtli]

I totally agree with Holistic. As an adcom, I would weigh admission as 70% MCAT, 30% GPA. The MCAT should be the single most important deciding factor since different schools have a different criteria for an A. For example an A at Derek Zoolander's School for Kids Who Can't Read and Write Good does not carry the same weight as an A from MIT.
There are many people who study hard but can not achieve a satisfactory MCAT score. They take the MCAT over and over again but to no avail. (See AAMC data, retakers usually get only 1-2 points above their 1st time). If you studied your ass off and didn't perform up to par, maybe you didn't perform up to par because of 1) mental block 2) not enough preparation 3) time management 4) stress. These above factors can be worked out, however if you put in 100% but were only able to only get a 26, maybe you have to ask yourself if medicine is right for you. Not everyone is born equal (sad but true). Some people are smarter than others, some work harder than others, but hardworking usually negates smarts. Medicine is a mental decathalon, if you can't get pass the preliminaries, how are you going to run the real thing? You need 1) intelligence to be able to jump over the mental hurdles 2) (most important) hard work in order to build strength, intelligence, stamina, and fortitude to run the gauntlet.

I say this without getting my April MCAT scores back. I prepared over 1,000 hours for the MCAT. If I get an 8 or lower on any section, I will know maybe medicine is something not for me-I'm dumber than the average bear.
There are many professions that earn lots of money but are less demanding. I would just miss out on the altruistic nature of medicine. I would be happy for those 16,000 people who get into medicine every year out of 60,000 test takers because they are going to be ones who I can trust are going to save my life when I get a heart attack after seeing my MCAT scores.

In my opinion, the MCAT tests two important parts of the medical school applicant.

1) IF he/she really wants to be a doctor?

2) Then even if they want it bad will they be able to handle the rigor of the medical school curriculum and board exams?

Lets face it, a Cum GPA from po dunk community college where pre reqs where taken with all A's could equal the same intellect and work ethic required to get all C's in pre reqs at a school like the University of Texas. The MCAT is also very important because no matter how smart you are you still have to prepare like hell to do well on the exam. This weeds out all the people who are getting into medicine for the altruistic idea that lack the work ethic. Let us not forget that no matter how smart someone is they still have to study like hell to pass the board exams so the MCAT helps find people who have the ability to put themselves under that kind of pressure and succeed.

Second, I will catch a lot of sh$% for this statement, but if you study like hell for 4 months with the help of a freaking prep class and you cant break 24 on the MCAT, in most cases you do not have the intellectual capacity to handle medical school. That is a statistical fact that has been proven time and time again to adcoms. That is why they dont like to take chances on scores below 28.

It is a cruel world and entry into the medical profession has many obstacles. The height of this journey is the day you take the MCAT. It is an exam that consumes your life, your thoughts, your emotions, and your spirit. Some succeed and others fail but that is the very thing that makes the world great. Whether I scored a 24 or 34 on the MCAT does not really matter to me. I will know that I studied as hard as I possible could for my own selfish reasons. I want to be a doctor and in order to be a doctor one must take the MCAT. Some here question the validity of the MCAT and claim it is a collective evil against individuals who would make great doctors, but fail to do well on standardized tests. This is a flawed statement for many reasons.

The first reason is the very nature of being a doctor. Sure lots of people can study their tail off and master the material for a college exam, but can they retain that information and not only recall it, but also apply it to new situations. A doctor is faced with new situations and unfamiliar problems daily. The MCAT presents us with the same sort of challenge. We are tested over basic science knowledge in unfamiliar ways. It is testing our ability to formulate answers in novel situations using knowledge we should have retained. This skill is essential in diagnosing disease.

Second, a standardized test gives people a reason to strive for excellence within themselves. The MCAT gave me the opportunity to compete against myself. It gave me a chance to work hard for something I wanted. This test helps measure how bad we all really want to be doctors. If your taking the MCAT to someday help others you are taking the MCAT for the wrong reasons. You take the MCAT for yourself, for your own reasons because you want to be a doctor for you not anyone else. The people who take it for this reason will have the most success because those that do everything for themselves do the best work. This test gives us all the same opportunity to prove our dedication to our work.

Now I am just rambling on but after going through the whole MCAT experience and reflecting on it, I believe the day I took the MCAT was one of the finest days of my life. I went in and took the test for me and no one else, my score will only reflect my hard work compared to others hard work. There will be winners and losers the day the April scores come in, but that is what keeps the medical profession superior to all other. Without losers mediocrity is all that exists. The MCAT enables exceptional individuals the chance to be just that "exceptional".

 

[Shredder]

The MCAT should be the single most important deciding factor

agreed. and if its not a good enough predictor of medical success as it currently stands, modify it so that it is. mcat mcat mcat! im assuming i did well on the april one...if i didnt, well ive have to find the nearest cliff. that or another career.

 

[kdwuma]

sometimes people on sdn act like going to a top10 or 20 school makes you smarter and thus a lower gpa at these schools should be looked at as a better achievement than let say someone that went to a state school. let me remind people of some points they might be overlooking
1-not everyone that goes to an ivy got there based on grades ( i know a president that i could use as an example but i resist, note: legacy is notoriously high in these schools)
2- these so called top schools have a limited number of spots and can not possibly capture all the talent available or can they absorb them
3- a lot of very bright people can not afford to go to ivy schools even on a scholarship i.e need to stay close to home and work
4- if you are smart enough to get into an ivy and manage a 3.0 i for one will be very suspicious of your work ethic and ability to succeed in a competitive enviroment like med school
so you see this thing about a 3.0 been better because it was earned in an ivy school does not make sense, maybe you ended up with a 3.0 because you did not work hard or you......by the way i have reliable sources that confirm that rarely do you get a break because you went to a so called harder school.

 

[gujuDoc]

agreed. and if its not a good enough predictor of medical success as it currently stands, modify it so that it is. mcat mcat mcat! im assuming i did well on the april one...if i didnt, well ive have to find the nearest cliff. that or another career.

The possibility of you not having done well??????? hahahahahaha, that's a laughable thought, knowing your diagnostic scores. I'm sure you are going to be one of the 39 and above scores, at least a 38 man!!!!! 😉 😛 😀


But that aside, I agree with the flaws in GPA at different schools. But also, within a particular school, one teacher may use a 10 pt system, while another teacher uses up to an 85 for an A. Then there is the level of difficulty of one class compared to another, etc. For these reasons, I think MCAT scores often balance things out. Nonetheless, both are important. The thing with GPA is, though, if you have a slightly horrible GPA, at least there are postbac programs to bring it up and prove yourself. With MCAT, it takes a lot more to improve. However, with four months of solid studying, yes, I do agree that a person should be able to get at least 24, with no lower then a 6 or 7 in a section (referring to the Verbal here). My friends whom had 25 or 26 had so because a 5 or 6 in Verbal in some cases due to second language.

 

[Shredder]

The possibility of you not having done well??????? hahahahahaha, that's a laughable thought, knowing your diagnostic scores. I'm sure you are going to be one of the 39 and above scores, at least a 38 man!!!!! 😉 😛 😀

i dont know man...it was pretty tough, my confidence is faltering!

 

[Lindyhopper]

. . . my confidence is faltering!

Say it's not so. Look at that avatar & buck yourself up.

 

[MollyMalone]

Yeah, about that avatar... I dunno, but I have a hard time remembering that Shredder probably does not resemble the Donald in real life. My mind's eye totally pictures a slightly younger dude with the exact same hair.