Poll Time- If it comes to taking an antipsychotic, which one would you prefer?

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If it comes to taking an antipsychotic, which one would you prefer?


  • Total voters
    106
I keep seeing lawyer advertisements that say "if you've have taken a certain antipsychotic (i think it was seroquel) and developed diabetes, call us"

do they get diabetes because they get fat or is there or does it mess with your pancreas or something?

another mechanism is through causing insulin resistance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

in this study they gave healthy volunteers olanzapine (10mg/day) or zisprasidone (80mg/day) for 10 days and noted a significant decrease in insulin sensitivity and increase in insulin levels in the olanzipine group but not the the zisprasidone group. The olanzapine group experienced a 0.6 increase (p<0.02) in their average BMI in just 10 days. 😱

(I wonder how much they paid these volunteers...)

FWIW the below study seems to suggest that insulin resistance is a more important factor than pancreatic beta cell dysfunction. (I don't have access to the full study though and am not that familiar with its measures.) The Sacher study though, mentions a study performed in dogs though where olanzapine did affect beta cell function compensation - but then dogs aren't humans. There's lots more to learn. 🙂

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nkpos=5&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
 
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I hardly consider Seroquel weight neutral.

OK- but I see it as "more" weight neutral than, say, risperidal. Then again- my view (from inside the psych ward) is more limited than yours. I have only anectodal evidence from a small sample.

Speaking of side effects- the one side effect that I think is often underestimated is the dry mouth one gets from the anti cholinergic effects. It leaves one very vulnerable to cavities and necessitates frequent trips to the dentist for check ups. I'm not going to be a psychiatrist- but in my chosen specialty I plan to make patients suffering from dry mouth 2/2 medication or radiation treatments in the head/ neck area aware of the cavity risk.
 
OK- but I see it as "more" weight neutral than, say, risperidal. Then again- my view (from inside the psych ward) is more limited than yours. I have only anectodal evidence from a small sample.

Speaking of side effects- the one side effect that I think is often underestimated is the dry mouth one gets from the anti cholinergic effects. It leaves one very vulnerable to cavities and necessitates frequent trips to the dentist for check ups. I'm not going to be a psychiatrist- but in my chosen specialty I plan to make patients suffering from dry mouth 2/2 medication or radiation treatments in the head/ neck area aware of the cavity risk.

God knows that this is just CATIE (lots of debate possible), but check out Table 3.
 
Why do so many people think that atypicals are better than typicals?

There is no real data to support this. We do have data for their adverse effects however.
 
I guess we can't vote again. Just wanted to continue the discussion. I had voted for Risperdal and will stick with it. However, may go for Saphris if I was a Borderline with mild Mood/Bipolar disorder.
 
I guess we can't vote again. Just wanted to continue the discussion. I had voted for Risperdal and will stick with it. However, may go for Saphris if I was a Borderline with mild Mood/Bipolar disorder.
If you really want to start over, see if you can edit the poll. If not, I think I can reset the fields.
 
Why do so many people think that atypicals are better than typicals?

There is no real data to support this. We do have data for their adverse effects however.

They aren't. They can better but they are often worse.

I think we all decided a 50% chance of being fat was much better than a 5% chance per year of getting the TDs.

Not all typicals, dosed properly, give you TD at a higher rate than atypicals. Also, not all atypicals are clozapine when it comes to TD.

There is the suggestion that atypicals treat negative sx better. I don't really see this actually happening on any consistent basis. Several people throw it out there as if it is gospel however...luckily not much of that here. I see it all the time in the community.
 
Not all typicals, dosed properly, give you TD at a higher rate than atypicals.

I've never seen anything about that, do you have any literature that talks about it? APA guidelines lump them all the typicals together at about 4-8%, compared to risperdal around 0.5% per year, and the others being nearly immeasurable. APA guidelines are also miserably out of date.

(asking earnestly, not challenging at all)
 
If you really want to start over, see if you can edit the poll. If not, I think I can reset the fields.
I don't want to start over but if you can, please add the three newer drugs. Also, people may be allowed to change their vote if they already voted,
 
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I think the main problem with the typicals is dosing. If you can keep the dose moderate, you can avoid the side effects. This was seen in CATIE with trilafon.

Nobody, sadly, is doing these studies in any meaningful way. There is no incentive. Also, there are too many problems with typicals that make them look like the bad guy. The problems are multi fold. I will list some but I am sure there are others.

1) Typicals have been used for a long, long time and so we see more side effects with typicals because of that.

2) Typicals are used with sicker patients.

3) Typicals are often used at higher doses than they should be. How often have you seen haldol 10mg BID or even more when 5mg a day is effectively the 80% D2 binding dose.

4) We don't give preventative medications, especially when we give IM doses etc.

5) We have gotten away from using low and mid potency typicals.

None of the above is necessarily malpractice but it does sometimes make it seem like typicals are bad medicine when its just not the case. They are just cheaper so no drug rep is out there on the corner pushing them.
 
I think the main problem with the typicals is dosing. If you can keep the dose moderate, you can avoid the side effects. This was seen in CATIE with trilafon.

Nobody, sadly, is doing these studies in any meaningful way. There is no incentive. Also, there are too many problems with typicals that make them look like the bad guy. The problems are multi fold. I will list some but I am sure there are others.

1) Typicals have been used for a long, long time and so we see more side effects with typicals because of that.

Hmmm...I am not sure about this anymore. Most atypicals have been used for awhile now and we know most of what we need to know about atypicals.

2) Typicals are used with sicker patients.

Used to be but we'll all agree that risperidone, olanzapine and clozapine are used for pretty sick patients. I believe lower cost is the main factor driving most typical use.

3) Typicals are often used at higher doses than they should be. How often have you seen haldol 10mg BID or even more when 5mg a day is effectively the 80% D2 binding dose.

I am sure you'll agree that real life is not as straightforward as D2 binding. I wish all my psychotic patients needed was a little dopamine blocking and bingo!!! While Haldol 10 mg BID may not be uncommon but it is not the most common Haldol dose. 5 mg BID appears to be more common.


4) We don't give preventative medications, especially when we give IM doses etc.

This area needs a lot more research and patient cooperation. How many people will agree to be on a brain medicaltion to prevent psychosis. It is hard enough to convince even those patients who already have the disease.

5) We have gotten away from using low and mid potency typicals.

This probably appears to me as the most convincing arguement but still not a slam dunk.

None of the above is necessarily malpractice but it does sometimes make it seem like typicals are bad medicine when its just not the case. They are just cheaper so no drug rep is out there on the corner pushing them.

Psychiatry, just like rest of the medicine, is becoming more personalized. Patient preference, thus, become an imporant factor. If a patient tells me that he/she felt better with Risperidone/Olanzapine v/s Haloperidol/perphenazine, I have no right to force anything on them if they can afford these meds. Of course, there are other factors to consider like comorbid conditions. Again, there are never any straighforward answers in psychiatry.
 
There is data showing that atypicals could be better for the treatment of a psychotic disorder because they prevent neurodegeneration. Putting in the terms "plasticity atypical antipsychotic" into a google, google scholar, or pubmed search will show several articles showing such.

Except for the above, I don't see much of a reason to argue that either a typical or atypical is superior so long as you are monitoring for the side effects such as EPS and NMS, but the above is important. I've seen several patients that truly do need a typical antipsychotic and daily treatment in forensic and long-term facilities where the level of psychosis is often worse than what you see in a usual inpatient unit.

Despite the above I still have plenty of patients where I give typicals. E.g. I've seen several patients respond well to a phenothiazine such as Fluphenazine, but they don't have any or less improvement with an atypical. In that case, after discussing the issue with the patient, I sometimes prescribe the typical with a lose dose of the atypical, but the typical is the mainstay of their treatment. The atypical is only there for the neuroprotective reasons. I've also seen patients needing high doses of a few medications including more than one antipsychotic, and yes, when I got these patients, I put them on one medication at at time, hoping that that's all they would need and I only increased dosages and meds if one was tried and it didn't work. It's unfortunate but like I said, I tend to get some really way way way more psychotic people than I did in residency where most patients were only hospitalized for a few days and if it was tougher than that, we transferred them to the long-term facility.

A problem I'm seeing with several of the atypicals is that drug reps have created a type of taboo mentality with the typicals. Yes, there are benefits with the atypicals, but you have to see the whole for what it is. A doctor that limits their experience to the atypicals and does not try Fluphenazine, for example, may have missed that Fluphenazine actually worked well for a particular patient but none of the atypicals worked as well.

Another thing I've learned since I've come to Ohio is that several of the doctors here showed me data that Loxapine could act as an atypical. (Glazer WM (1999). "Does loxapine have "atypical" properties? Clinical evidence". The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 60 (Suppl 10): 42&#8211;6. PMID 10340686.). It's a cheap medication and I have seen several patients do well on Loxapine. Why give them $700 Zyprexa if $20 Loxapine is doing the trick nicely?

I've also seen some places where the drug reps have leveraged all the doctors into giving everyone an atypical. E.g. the person is depressed but now they're give Abilify 5 mg QAM as the only treatment for depression. (Dammit, it's only an augmentation agent, and dammit, there are plenty of other meds that could've been tried that are far cheaper, with more data, and for most people-less side effects!)

I sometimes marvel at how smart doctors are supposed to be yet so many of them seem so dense to me. It's not IMHO from lack of brains, but from lack of giving a damn.
 
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RE: we know most of what we need to know about atypicals. I don't agree. I have seen plenty of TD with risperdal, geodon and abilify. I absolutely agree its not as simple as D2 binding and was only using that as an example. In fact the various different models used, posynaptic dopaminergic hypersensitivity, striatal GABA-ergic neuron damage, striatal cholinergic damage, overblockade of dopaminergic receptors etc all have their limitations.
Its the same thing with the neuroplasticity studies. We haven't quite understood the mind-brain connection yet although we are constantly getting closer.

I am of the firm belief that we don't yet know enough about the atypicals yet. That doesn't mean those meds don't have a lot to offer. Also, we don't use enough typicals at the lower doses, 5mg BID of haldol is still high in my book. One thing we have learned, something CATIE did reveal was that all these medications are very different from each other. So you really have to tailor the medications to the patient and make sure there is effectiveness as opposed to making decisions based on efficacy studies.
 
NZT?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3U9RsXeJ3w[/YOUTUBE]

"An action-thriller about a writer who takes an experimental drug that allows him to use 100 percent of his mind. As one man evolves into the perfect version of himself, forces more corrupt than he can imagine mark him for assassination. Out-of-work writer Eddie Morra's (Cooper) rejection by girlfriend Lindy (Abbie Cornish) confirms his belief that he has zero future. That all vanishes the day an old friend introduces Eddie to NZT, a designer pharmaceutical that makes him laser focused and more confident than any man alive. Now on an NZT-fueled odyssey, everything Eddie's read, heard or seen is instantly organized and available to him."
 
I figure its too late for me to get schizophrenia. I could still get an affective psychotic illness though. Sooo...more I think about it, I would rather have ECT.
 
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