Possibilty of late cycle II's and application input

[bpk257]

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Hey all,

So it's now mid-March and while I have a pile of rejection emails, I have not yet received any II's from the schools I have left to hear from, and to be honest I'm pretty bummed right now. I was wondering if any of you could tell me if it's possible to still snag an admittance at this point in the cycle, or if you could help me figure out why I'm not having any luck with my application.
I have a 3.73 GPA and got a 519 on the MCAT, giving me a LizzyM score of 74.3. I applied to 14 schools, with 10 rejections and silence from the last four. I double-majored in Music and Biology, and graduated this past December. I know the weak point in my application lies in my research and shadowing experience; I had virtually no research experience, and not quite as much shadowing as I would like. Knowing this, I applied for several research positions when I graduated and I now have a job as a research technician at my alma mater; I made sure to update all of the secondaries that I could at the time. Regarding secondaries, I submitted them in late August/early September which I didn't think was late, though I could be wrong. I also have volunteer experience with the hospital on campus and have held several leadership positions in the music fraternity I was a brother of.
Everyone I've interacted with throughout my application process (guidance counselors, current med students) told me my application was pretty solid, and this fall I felt pretty confident of my chances. Is there a glaring part of my application I missed? I have already started working on a backup plan if I don't get in this cycle but I was really hoping I would. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and any feedback you may have.

 

[CharlieBillings]

Do you have any non-clinical volunteering?

I had zero research, but similar stats. I may have been saved by my non-clinical volunteering where I also had significant leadership. Additionally had leadership with strong LOR from a 4 year job.

If you're not making up for the lack of research elsewhere that could have been the issue. Also 14 schools is a bit low, and did you apply to any DO schools?

 

[bpk257]

Do you have any non-clinical volunteering?

I had zero research, but similar stats. I may have been saved by my non-clinical volunteering where I also had significant leadership. Additionally had leadership with strong LOR from a 4 year job.

If you're not making up for the lack of research elsewhere that could have been the issue. Also 14 schools is a bit low, and did you apply to any DO schools?

The music fraternity I was a part of also focused on service, though I would say I had more hours in clinical volunteering. I also did not apply to any DO schools, I stuck to MD programs.

Community service/volunteering is more important than shadowing and research. Without seeing your application, I would look critically at the coherence and compelling nature of the application plus school choice

Regarding school choice, would you recommend applying strictly to schools whose classes have similar stats to mine, or try and have a spread with some reach schools and also schools that I feel pretty confident on getting into? Would you also say that the coherence and compelling nature of my application lies in my essays?

 

[Mcatbot]

Hey all,

So it's now mid-March and while I have a pile of rejection emails, I have not yet received any II's from the schools I have left to hear from, and to be honest I'm pretty bummed right now. I was wondering if any of you could tell me if it's possible to still snag an admittance at this point in the cycle, or if you could help me figure out why I'm not having any luck with my application.
I have a 3.73 GPA and got a 519 on the MCAT, giving me a LizzyM score of 74.3. I applied to 14 schools, with 10 rejections and silence from the last four. I double-majored in Music and Biology, and graduated this past December. I know the weak point in my application lies in my research and shadowing experience; I had virtually no research experience, and not quite as much shadowing as I would like. Knowing this, I applied for several research positions when I graduated and I now have a job as a research technician at my alma mater; I made sure to update all of the secondaries that I could at the time. Regarding secondaries, I submitted them in late August/early September which I didn't think was late, though I could be wrong. I also have volunteer experience with the hospital on campus and have held several leadership positions in the music fraternity I was a brother of.
Everyone I've interacted with throughout my application process (guidance counselors, current med students) told me my application was pretty solid, and this fall I felt pretty confident of my chances. Is there a glaring part of my application I missed? I have already started working on a backup plan if I don't get in this cycle but I was really hoping I would. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and any feedback you may have.

What was your school list?

 

[Toutie]

If you applied to 14 schools (too few) and received 10 rejections, no interviews, and 4 silences...then you must either have a very bad LOR or applied to all top 20/reach schools (or all CA schools).
What is your state of residence and which 14 schools did you apply to?

 

[bpk257]

What was your school list?

University of Cincinnati
Tufts
University of Florida
Georgetown University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Central Florida
UNC Chapel Hill
New York University
Penn State
Mayo (Rochester campus)

Florida Atlantic University
Florida International University
University of Miami
Ohio State University

I'm a Florida resident, hence the Florida schools. The bottom four are the ones I have left to hear from.

 

[Lawpy]

University of Cincinnati
Tufts
University of Florida
Georgetown University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Central Florida
UNC Chapel Hill
New York University
Penn State
Mayo (Rochester campus)

Florida Atlantic University
Florida International University
University of Miami
Ohio State University

I'm a Florida resident, hence the Florida schools. The bottom four are the ones I have left to hear from.

surprised Florida schools aren't giving you much/any love despite having a 3.7/37 profile with some clinical and nonclinical volunteering.

my guess is something is off in your application; whether they could be essays, letters etc.

 

[Toutie]

University of Cincinnati
Tufts
University of Florida
Georgetown University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Central Florida
UNC Chapel Hill
New York University
Penn State
Mayo (Rochester campus)

Florida Atlantic University
Florida International University
University of Miami
Ohio State University

I'm a Florida resident, hence the Florida schools. The bottom four are the ones I have left to hear from.

Okay, exactly how much clinical volunteering did you have? While 14 still too few schools, you should have received some attention from the Florida schools. Is there any possibility you might have a bad LOR? Or an IA?

 

[bpk257]

surprised Florida schools aren't giving you much/any love despite having a 3.7/37 profile with some clinical and nonclinical volunteering.

my guess is something is off in your application; whether they could be essays, letters etc.

Do you have any advice on figuring out what it could be? I felt good about my LOR from non-science faculty and a professional, I didn't know my science faculty writers super well but we had built a good rapport when I took their classes. I don't have a lot of confidence in my writing, so that could be it.

 

[Toutie]

Do you have any advice on figuring out what it could be? I felt good about my LOR from non-science faculty and a professional, I didn't know my science faculty writers super well but we had built a good rapport when I took their classes. I don't have a lot of confidence in my writing, so that could be it.

Did you have anyone read over your PS? Your secondaries?

 

[bpk257]

Okay, exactly how much clinical volunteering did you have? While 14 still too few schools, you should have received some attention from the Florida schools. Is there any possibility you might have a bad LOR? Or an IA?

I have 150 hours. Is that on par, or too few? Not sure about my LOR but I felt like I had a good relationship with my writers. I'm not familiar with what IA means, could you clarify?

 

[bpk257]

Did you have anyone read over your PS? Your secondaries?

I had quite a few read my personal statement, but I did my secondaries on my own for the most part.

 

[Lawpy]

Do you have any advice on figuring out what it could be? I felt good about my LOR from non-science faculty and a professional, I didn't know my science faculty writers super well but we had built a good rapport when I took their classes. I don't have a lot of confidence in my writing, so that could be it.

not sure since I expected you would've gotten some love from your state schools, so probably your application wasn't tailored to their missions? this would be to have more clinical and nonclinical volunteering to show service to Florida community, and from what you have stated here, you covered that (although it's better to get more hours + responsibilities to make your experience more substantial).

state schools usually wouldn't yield protect their in state applicants with high stats, so that's not a factor. so this leaves the options of how you presented your experiences in essays and application, and/or you may have gotten torpedoed by a subtle bad letter (although it's hard to identify this as being a cause).

your school list could have been better (adding more schools, getting rid of Georgetown, Cinci, UNC due to low yield or low OOS acceptance percentage). when were you complete?

I'll defer to the adcoms who can better address your situation @LizzyM @Goro @gyngyn @gonnif .

I have 150 hours. Is that on par, or too few? Not sure about my LOR but I felt like I had a good relationship with my writers. I'm not familiar with what IA means, could you clarify?

150 clinical volunteering hours are a bit on the low side though not a red flag. IA = institutional action by your university for any misdemeanor you may have committed.

 

[Toutie]

Penn, NYU and Mayo were also all poor choices with no research at all.

 

[Lawpy]

without know your application or fully understanding your academic record, my opinion would be speculation

what could be the reasons for state schools being reluctant to interview their in state applicants whose academic stats are above their matriculant medians?

Penn, NYU and Mayo were also all poor choices with no research at all.

research isn't mandatory for top schools, but applicants must have something unique and a compelling hook to compensate for lack of research.

 

[Goro]

At this point in time you should be working on Plan B.

I suspect that your essays are problematic, or you have a red flag of an IA, or a bad LOR. Or you aimed too high. 14 schools is a lowish number.

Hey all,

So it's now mid-March and while I have a pile of rejection emails, I have not yet received any II's from the schools I have left to hear from, and to be honest I'm pretty bummed right now. I was wondering if any of you could tell me if it's possible to still snag an admittance at this point in the cycle, or if you could help me figure out why I'm not having any luck with my application.
I have a 3.73 GPA and got a 519 on the MCAT, giving me a LizzyM score of 74.3. I applied to 14 schools, with 10 rejections and silence from the last four. I double-majored in Music and Biology, and graduated this past December. I know the weak point in my application lies in my research and shadowing experience; I had virtually no research experience, and not quite as much shadowing as I would like. Knowing this, I applied for several research positions when I graduated and I now have a job as a research technician at my alma mater; I made sure to update all of the secondaries that I could at the time. Regarding secondaries, I submitted them in late August/early September which I didn't think was late, though I could be wrong. I also have volunteer experience with the hospital on campus and have held several leadership positions in the music fraternity I was a brother of.
Everyone I've interacted with throughout my application process (guidance counselors, current med students) told me my application was pretty solid, and this fall I felt pretty confident of my chances. Is there a glaring part of my application I missed? I have already started working on a backup plan if I don't get in this cycle but I was really hoping I would. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and any feedback you may have.

 

[gyngyn]

With what you have shared, there are a half dozen schools on your list where you had a fair to good chance at an interview.
How many MCAT's?
Re-applicant?
Institutional action?
Date of submission?

 

[bpk257]

not sure since I expected you would've gotten some love from your state schools, so probably your application wasn't tailored to their missions? this would be to have more clinical and nonclinical volunteering to show service to Florida community, and from what you have stated here, you covered that (although it's better to get more hours + responsibilities to make your experience more substantial).

state schools usually wouldn't yield protect their in state applicants with high stats, so that's not a factor. so this leaves the options of how you presented your experiences in essays and application, and/or you may have gotten torpedoed by a subtle bad letter (although it's hard to identify this as being a cause).

your school list could have been better (adding more schools, getting rid of Georgetown, Cinci, UNC due to low yield or low OOS acceptance percentage). when were you complete?

I'll defer to the adcoms who can better address your situation @LizzyM @Goro @gyngyn @gonnif .



150 clinical volunteering hours are a bit on the low side though not a red flag. IA = institutional action by your university for any misdemeanor you may have committed.

I have no criminal record or issues with plagiarism, so I don't think I would have anything warranting an IA.

At this point in time you should be working on Plan B.

I suspect that your essays are problematic, or you have a red flag of an IA, or a bad LOR. Or you aimed too high. 14 schools is a lowish number.

I definitely have started planning on having to redo the application cycle, and will focus on having a larger and better selection of schools if I end up reapplying.

 

[Lawpy]

I have no criminal record or issues with plagiarism, so I don't think I would have anything warranting an IA.

so to clarify, you weren't given a disciplinary action by your university for anything? that's what getting an IA means.

I definitely have started planning on having to redo the application cycle, and will focus on having a larger and better selection of schools if I end up reapplying.

what have you done during the current application cycle that will make you more competitive/better optimize your success in reapplication?

 

[bpk257]

With what you have shared, there are a half dozen schools on your list where you had a fair to good chance at an interview.
How many MCAT's?
Re-applicant?
Institutional action?
Date of submission?

I am a first-time applicant and have only taken the MCAT once. I'm not aware of any institutional action. I submitted my primary application July 21st, and got an email saying my application was processed on August 15th; I completed my secondaries by early September.

 

[Goro]

OP, if you want to aim high, the top school especially seem to like service to others less fortunate than yourself. To the tune of hundreds -to even 1000s of hours.

 

[Lawpy]

I am a first-time applicant and have only taken the MCAT once. I'm not aware of any institutional action. I submitted my primary application July 21st, and got an email saying my application was processed on August 15th; I completed my secondaries by early September.

yeah i'm stumped. it basically reduces to the following question: what could be the reasons for state schools being reluctant to interview their in state applicants whose academic stats are above their matriculant medians?

those reasons are probably/likely holding you back.

Overall academic evaluation is beyond a single GPA number or GPA score. I do not know the BCPM, the grade trends, or other details. A good physician likes to review the entire chart and lab report, especially when a seemingly simple case is not going as planned

yes but OP has good GPA and good MCAT along with sufficient (could be better) clinical and nonclinical volunteering experience. aren't these strong reasons to get IIs from state schools?

 

[gyngyn]

I am a first-time applicant and have only taken the MCAT once. I'm not aware of any institutional action. I submitted my primary application July 21st, and got an email saying my application was processed on August 15th; I completed my secondaries by early September.

Further analysis would require more than can be dissected in a forum, then.

 

[bpk257]

so to clarify, you weren't given a disciplinary action by your university for anything? that's what getting an IA means.



what have you done during the current application cycle that will make you more competitive/better optimize your success in reapplication?

No, I've never been given a disciplinary action. I'm currently employed as a research technician, which should give me research experience that my primary application was lacking. Most of the schools that have rejected me did so before I got the position. I am also planning on shadowing, and after reading these replies I will try and do more non-clinical volunteering as well.

 

[Toutie]

I have no criminal record or issues with plagiarism, so I don't think I would have anything warranting an IA.


I definitely have started planning on having to redo the application cycle, and will focus on having a larger and better selection of schools if I end up reapplying.

Okay, so you are currently getting some research experience, correct? How much shadowing did you have? Get it up around 50 hours or so. More clinical and non clinical volunteering wouldn't hurt if you can possibly beef them up a bit in the next few months. Get the MSAR and use it to make your school selections. Apply to something in the vicinity or 25-30 schools. If you feel your writing may be weak, have people read over your secondaries. Get your application in early.

 

[bpk257]

Further analysis would require more than can be dissected in a forum, then.

Do you have any suggestions on where I could go for more in-depth help?

 

[gyngyn]

Do you have any suggestions on where I could go for more in-depth help?

Your school can only stay accredited by helping its most vulnerable students.
Start with the student affairs deans. Do you know any of them?

 

[Lawpy]

Further analysis would require more than can be dissected in a forum, then.

OP's case is concerning and contradicts the conventional SDN wisdom. he applied on time, had good stats, had some clinical and nonclinical experience, and had some interesting things to talk about in essays (like music experiences). his letters and essays were apparently good. how and why did he end up in a poor situation where his state schools weren't interested in him?

it's confusing because state schools care more about service to community in the state they're part of and care less about research. having no research isn't a drawback.

 

[LizzyM]

No, I've never been given a disciplinary action. I'm currently employed as a research technician, which should give me research experience that my primary application was lacking. Most of the schools that have rejected me did so before I got the position. I am also planning on shadowing, and after reading these replies I will try and do more non-clinical volunteering as well.

Being a research technician is not the same as having a role in hypothesis generation and testing. Schools want to see you digging into the scientific method, not just carrying out protocols designed by others.

With 200-400 hours of research over a summer or an academic year you might have been attractive to the research intensive schools such as Penn and NYU. Your grades and scores were certainly in the ballpark for those schools but research is expected, too.

 

[Gaian]

OP's case is concerning and contradicts the conventional SDN wisdom. he applied on time, had good stats, had some clinical and nonclinical experience, and had some interesting things to talk about in essays (like music experiences). his letters and essays were apparently good. how and why did he end up in a poor situation where his state schools weren't interested in him?

It's probably just cognitive bias, but I've been noticing more posts from people like OP (LizzyM range ~75) falling through the cracks this cycle. It seems like people in this range tend to underestimate the quantity/quality of ECs you need to be competitive at top schools. I'm getting the feeling that people in this range might have to be a bit more conservative in their school lists if their ECs aren't quite up to snuff, even though their stats may match with top schools. It's a tough position to be in because deficient ECs are much harder to identify and alleviate than low GPA/low MCAT.

 

[Lawpy]

It's probably just cognitive bias, but I've been noticing more posts from people like OP (LizzyM range ~75) falling through the cracks this cycle. It seems like people in this range tend to underestimate the quantity/quality of ECs you need to be competitive at top schools. I'm getting the feeling that people in this range might have to be a bit more conservative in their school lists if their ECs aren't quite up to snuff, even though their stats may match with top schools. It's a tough position to be in because deficient ECs are much harder to identify and alleviate than low GPA/low MCAT.

but this doesn't answer why state schools were reluctant to interview him. and that's the confusing factor. state schools don't usually yield protect against their in state applicants with strong stats. and I would expect Florida schools would like to have OP in their class (i.e. to strengthen their class profile), so I don't understand why they were hesitant. something else is off and I don't know what.

 

[freak7]

Do you have any suggestions on where I could go for more in-depth help?

Can you book a feedback appointment at any of the schools? They'll have your whole app and can best advise you.

 

[LizzyM]

OP's case is concerning and contradicts the conventional SDN wisdom. he applied on time, had good stats, had some clinical and nonclinical experience, and had some interesting things to talk about in essays (like music experiences). his letters and essays were apparently good. how and why did he end up in a poor situation where his state schools weren't interested in him?

it's confusing because state schools care more about service to community in the state they're part of and care less about research. having no research isn't a drawback.

Sometimes the essays are really bad. It is really impossible for us to know how those secondaries looked.

 

[Lawpy]

Sometimes the essays are really bad. It is really impossible for us to know how those secondaries looked.

this is true but are there any other reasons besides possibly bad essays and bad letters? the latter is especially scary and deceptive.

 

[gyngyn]

Can you book a feedback appointment at any of the schools? They'll have your whole app and can best advise you.

Schools are like HR. They can never win by giving frank information...
The ones that do offer feedback tend to be vague and general in their counsel.

 

[bpk257]

Can you book a feedback appointment at any of the schools? They'll have your whole app and can best advise you.

I would like to, I emailed one of my schools asking for feedback but have not received a response; I assume contacting a school for an appointment would give me better chances of getting feedback. Would this be done through the admissions office?

 

[docE15]

I am also a FL resident and didn't get any interest from the state schools. Although I didn't have an MCAT score quite like OP, I did have tons of service and clinical experience. But, like OP, I didn't have any substantial research. I called the admissions office of one of the state schools regarding why I was rejected and they mentioned it was primarily my lack of research. Many of my classmates heard only silence from the FL schools, so not exactly sure what's going on in regards to what they look for...


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[Lawpy]

I am also a FL resident and didn't get any interest from the state schools. Although I didn't have an MCAT score quite like OP, I did have tons of service and clinical experience. But, like OP, I didn't have any substantial research. I called the admissions office of one of the state schools regarding why I was rejected and they mentioned it was primarily my lack of research. Many of my classmates heard only silence from the FL schools, so not exactly sure what's going on in regards to what they look for...


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? why would Florida state schools care about research though? the only school in Florida that emphasizes research that I know of is Miami.

now it got me very curious to know what's the NIH research funding for the Florida state schools.

 

[docE15]

? why would Florida state schools care about research though? the only school in Florida that emphasizes research that I know of is Miami.

Not sure. But I do know that everyone in my circle that was accepted/interviewed by FL schools had substantial biomedical research with publications.


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[Lawpy]

Not sure. But I do know that everyone in my circle that was accepted/interviewed by FL schools had substantial biomedical research with publications.


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... that is really strange. it's as if Florida schools want to compete with the likes of Stanford.

 

[docE15]

... that is really strange. it's as if Florida schools want to compete with the likes of Stanford.

The friends I have at UF and UCF rave about their schools, saying they will become the next HMS in the coming years ...[emoji849] you should really see how brainwashed a lot of these premeds are regarding the FL schools.


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[Lawpy]

The friends I have at UF and UCF rave about their schools, saying they will become the next HMS in the coming years ...[emoji849] you should really see how brainwashed a lot of these premeds are regarding the FL schools.


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i'm really interested to know their research funding if those schools are acting so high and mighty for research....

well, good news for OP I guess. having more research may help improve chances at Florida schools, but it's better to apply to more schools outside of Florida.

 

[bpk257]

But observational data shows OP didnt get a II. Therefore, the case must be examined further as the info presented doesnt clearly show the cause here.

If the admissions offices of the schools I applied to don't really help as some stated above, is there a reliable party that could help me figure out the problem?

 

[Toutie]

If the admissions offices of the schools I applied to don't really help as some stated above, is there a reliable party that could help me figure out the problem?

Did you use MSAR when choosing your schools last time?

 

[bpk257]

Did you use MSAR when choosing your schools last time?

I did, though looking back the proportion of "reach" schools in my selection was probably too high.

 

[bpk257]

well I know an experienced and reliable party that could help but he can be an abnoxious, pushy new yorker who would charge you an arm and a leg. but if you dont want to use me, you can try some people on here to at least critically read your application. this would be a good place to start as the as they dont you but have an idea of what an application should be

Keeping costs to a minimum would definitely be preferable, but I will keep it as a possible option, as well as picking people's brains on SDN. Thank you for your help!

 

[Goro]

Because OP might have had a really lousy app, like essays dripping with errors, ego, or entitlement, or no clear distinction os to why OP wanted to go into medicine, or that OP gave off vibes that s/he would be better off in a PhD program, not med school.

OR, as I mentioned before, a bad LOR.

Contrary to your obsession with metrics, not everything can be condensed as such. Not all state residents get IIs from their home schools, either.

but this doesn't answer why state schools were reluctant to interview him. and that's the confusing factor. state schools don't usually yield protect against their in state applicants with strong stats. and I would expect Florida schools would like to have OP in their class (i.e. to strengthen their class profile), so I don't understand why they were hesitant. something else is off and I don't know what.

 

[Goro]

Some of them have median GPAs of 3.9.

... that is really strange. it's as if Florida schools want to compete with the likes of Stanford.

 

[Lawpy]

Because OP might have had a really lousy app, like essays dripping with errors, ego, or entitlement, or no clear distinction os to why OP wanted to go into medicine, or that OP gave off vibes that s/he would be better off in a PhD program, not med school.

OR, as I mentioned before, a bad LOR.

Contrary to your obsession with metrics, not everything can be condensed as such. Not all state residents get IIs from their home schools, either.

Some of them have median GPAs of 3.9.

Ah i'm not obsessed with metrics! I'm just trying to understand what could be the contributing reasons since it'd seem that having good stats and good ECs will help sway schools to give out interviews. But OP's case and the reasons you and others have provided basically show it's not that simple and everything matters.

It's just a worrying notion that even state schools can be very selective.

 

[Goro]

There have been multiple threads already about why high stat people fail to get IIs to schools.

And a perusal of MCAR's acceptance information pages would tell you that even state schools, which favor the home team, do not automatically give IIs to all IS applicants.

Ah i'm not obsessed with metrics! I'm just trying to understand what could be the contributing reasons since it'd seem that having good stats and good ECs will help sway schools to give out interviews. But OP's case and the reasons you and others have provided basically show it's not that simple and everything matters.

It's just a worrying notion that even state schools can be very selective.