Possible to be the Dean of an MD school as a DO? Major player in the AMA?

[MDhopeful10]

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Hi everyone. As the school year is about to start, its looking like I am going to have to attend a DO school in the coming year, which I have no problem with. However, in the future I am interested in getting involved in medical politics and potentially trying to become a dean of an MD school or become a major player in the AMA. Will either of these things be possible as a DO graduate?

 

[Law2Doc]

By that time the two groups may be merged and the distinction mostly historical. In the current day, probably not.

 

[Goro]

You could ask this guy:
http://www.wakehealth.edu/Faculty/Clinch-Charles-Randall.htm

Hi everyone. As the school year is about to start, its looking like I am going to have to attend a DO school in the coming year, which I have no problem with. However, in the future I am interested in getting involved in medical politics and potentially trying to become a dean of an MD school or become a major player in the AMA. Will either of these things be possible as a DO graduate?

 

[desiredmembername123]

You could ask this guy:
http://www.wakehealth.edu/Faculty/Clinch-Charles-Randall.htm

Do you know him personally? Or is he just an example of an academic DO that you know of.

 

[Goro]

For some reason his name is familiar...but I don't know if I've ever met him!

Do you know him personally? Or is he just an example of an academic DO that you know of.

 

[desiredmembername123]

For some reason his name is familiar...but I don't know if I've ever met him!

Maybe it's you, but in a past/future life.

 

[freak7]

You could ask this guy:
http://www.wakehealth.edu/Faculty/Clinch-Charles-Randall.htm

Hey Goro, what would be the reason behind going back to school for an MS after completing DO?

 

[desiredmembername123]

Hey Goro, what would be the reason behind going back to school for an MS after completing DO?

If he is faculty, not sure how legit that MS is. They may have just given it to him.

 

[desiredmembername123]

I find it hilarious that we are analyzing some random faculty members credentials right now.

 

[Goro]

Haven't a clue. Depends upon what the field is.

Hey Goro, what would be the reason behind going back to school for an MS after completing DO?

 

[desiredmembername123]

Haven't a clue. Depends upon what the field is.

He is asking because our friend Charles Clinch got his MS 15 years after getting a DO.

 

[Goro]

I saw that. Still, haven't a clue.

He is asking because our friend Charles Clinch got his MS 15 years after getting a DO.

 

[freak7]

Haven't a clue. Depends upon what the field is.

So odd too. I mean maybe if he was in radiology, I'd understand getting an MS in physics or math or something but for FM it just seems overkill.

 

[Med Ed]

So odd too. I mean maybe if he was in radiology, I'd understand getting an MS in physics or math or something but for FM it just seems overkill.

M.S. Degree, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Services Research

Well that was difficult to locate.

Basically it's a mid-career degree in public health. Not exactly rare, folks.

 

[Med Ed]

Hi everyone. As the school year is about to start, its looking like I am going to have to attend a DO school in the coming year, which I have no problem with. However, in the future I am interested in getting involved in medical politics and potentially trying to become a dean of an MD school or become a major player in the AMA. Will either of these things be possible as a DO graduate?

A dean or the dean? There is a huge difference. As a DO I do not think you would have much luck becoming the dean of an allopathic school, there will simply be too many MD-bearing competitors to edge you out. An osteopathic school would be much more feasible, but even that is a long shot. Many people jockey for years to get a chance at the big league, which is funny considering that most of them seem to fail within 4-5 years and leave defeated and despised.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Interesting that this guy got a DO from Robert Woods Johnson, which is now only an MD school.

New Jersey politics are...interesting...

 

[Goro]

100% agree. It's hard to become a Dean! It's like becoming mgr of a MLB team. And about just rewarding, for the reasons Med Ed points out!

A dean or the dean? There is a huge difference. As a DO I do not think you would have much luck becoming the dean of an allopathic school, there will simply be too many MD-bearing competitors to edge you out. An osteopathic school would be much more feasible, but even that is a long shot. Many people jockey for years to get a shot at the big league, which is funny considering that most of them seem to fail within 4-5 years and leave defeated and despised.

You have a gift for understatement, Chris!

New Jersey politics are...interesting...

 

[Med Ed]

Interesting that this guy got a DO from Robert Woods Johnson, which is now only an MD school.

New Jersey politics are...interesting...

This fairly convoluted, but the UMDNJ School of Osteopathic Medicine is not the same as Robert Woods Johnson. The former was broken off and merged with Rowan University in 2013, while the rest went to Rutgers.

 

[ChrisMack390]

This fairly convoluted, but the UMDNJ School of Osteopathic Medicine is not the same as Robert Woods Johnson. The former was broken off and merged with Rowan University in 2013, while the rest went to Rutgers.

Yeah I've told my parents twenty times that I am applying to NJMS, not UMDNJ. They'll get it eventually.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't know how a DO could be the Dean of an MD school... nor do I know how a DO could be a major player in AMA. If these actually happen, there is no reason to keep the two medical degrees separate since the differences will be entirely historical and the admissions/education pathway will be the same.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I don't know how a DO could be the Dean of an MD school... nor do I know how a DO could be a major player in AMA. If these actually happen, there is no reason to keep the two medical degrees separate since the differences will be entirely historical and the admissions/education pathway will be the same.

Aren't the differences mostly historical and the educations mostly the same (and increasingly so each year)?

 

[Lawpy]

Aren't the differences mostly historical and the educations mostly the same (and increasingly so each year)?

No. The differences pertain to the quality of clinical education and resources. It seems that the DO education model looks rather shady due to lenient AOA/COCA standards (see the Touro-NY controversy in the Osteopathic Forum... along with questionable quality of clinical rotations since many don't have a main teaching hospital). There are also two separate application pathways, with AACOMAS being very lenient to GPA calculations (retake grades count and math courses aren't considered science). This in turn results in two different applicant pools based on academics. Likewise, there is the problem of DO schools charging very large non-refundable deposits to hold your seat.

With the recent posts from Med Ed and faculty emphasizing the importance of clinical rotations, the differences between MD and DO remain significant. That's why i find it difficult to see a DO becoming the Dean of an MD school and/or a major player of AMA because MDs have a much better advantage in understanding how the MD pathway works.

 

[freak7]

M.S. Degree, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Services Research

Well that was difficult to locate.

Basically it's a mid-career degree in public health. Not exactly rare, folks.

Oh interesting. I would've expected that to fall under the MPH umbrella

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Just out of curiousity could an MD be Dean of a DO school? Both of my interviewers at LECOM were MDs, but I'm not sure how involved they were with the running of the school itself.

 

[paradoctor1]

I know that FMGs can be the the dean of MD schools like at U Toledo, so why not DOs?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Med Ed]

I know that FMGs can be the the dean of MD schools like at U Toledo, so why not DOs?

The dean of Toledo got his MD from Cincinnati and did IM-cards at the Brigham.

 

[Med Ed]

I don't know how a DO could be the Dean of an MD school... nor do I know how a DO could be a major player in AMA. If these actually happen, there is no reason to keep the two medical degrees separate since the differences will be entirely historical and the admissions/education pathway will be the same.

Just out of curiousity could an MD be Dean of a DO school? Both of my interviewers at LECOM were MDs, but I'm not sure how involved they were with the running of the school itself.

It's not really about degree equivalence or educational parity, it's about politics, appearances, and reputation. Right or wrong, an allopathic school installing a DO as dean would be a laughingstock, an osteopathic school installing an MD as dean would be a traitor.

 

[Law2Doc]

Aren't the differences mostly historical and the educations mostly the same (and increasingly so each year)?

"Mostly" is a loaded term. For now distinctions are made and may impact this kind of career aspiration. If the proposed merger becomes complete, this might eventually all go by the wayside.

 

[Lawpy]

It's not really about degree equivalence or educational parity, it's about politics, appearances, and reputation. Right or wrong, an allopathic school installing a DO as dean would be a laughingstock, an osteopathic school installing an MD as dean would be a traitor.

..... this occurs because MD and DO aren't equivalent. If they were, why would a DO dean be viewed as a laughing stock at MD schools, and an MD dean viewed as a traitor at DO schools? Politics and reputation are factors that play with these differences

"Mostly" is a loaded term. For now distinctions are made and may impact this kind of career aspiration. If the proposed merger becomes complete, this might eventually all go by the wayside.

This would mean the residency merger would make the DO degree obsolete

 

[Law2Doc]

A dean or the dean? There is a huge difference...

The latter was my understanding of OPs question as well.

 

[Goro]

An MD can be A Dean at a DO school (we have several at mine), but COCA requires DOs to be Dept' Chairs and THE Dean of a COM.

Just out of curiousity could an MD be Dean of a DO school? Both of my interviewers at LECOM were MDs, but I'm not sure how involved they were with the running of the school itself.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

..... this occurs because MD and DO aren't equivalent

I don't know why you are struggling with this concept, according to the law MD and DO are legally the EXACT same thing... Just because a DO being dean of an MD school would be political does not mean that there is a difference... It's more about image and prestige and all the other nebulous concepts we humans tend to fascinate ourselves with.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't know why you are struggling with this concept, according to the law MD and DO are legally the EXACT same thing... Just because a DO being dean of an MD school would be political does not mean that there is a difference... It's more about image and prestige and all the other nebulous concepts we humans tend to fascinate ourselves with.

As physicians, they are the same with same practice rights. The education pathway is not. And the application pathway is not. Image/prestige are just playing around the fact that we have both MD and DO rather than just a single degree under one education pathway.

 

[Med Ed]

..... this occurs because MD and DO aren't equivalent.

The very concept of this thread is a nanometer from another MD vs. DO debate, and once it goes there it's not coming back. MD and DO are both equivalent in the sense that recipients of both degrees have met the minimum requirements for state licensure. That does not make them identical, nor does it change the fact that even if the LCME started accrediting DO schools and half of them closed, there would still be no foreseeable cross-pollination at the level of SOM dean.

 

[Lawpy]

The very concept of this thread is a nanometer from another MD vs. DO debate, and once it goes there it's not coming back. MD and DO are both equivalent in the sense that recipients of both degrees have met the minimum requirements for state licensure. That does not make them identical, nor does it change the fact that even if the LCME started accrediting DO schools and half of them closed, there would still be no foreseeable cross-pollination at the level of SOM dean.

Don't worry. I'm avoiding that debate myself, but i'm wondering the reasons behind the criteria of choosing Deans. Goro has stated here that COCA requires the dean and chairmen of DO schools to be DOs. So this reason is something more than just politics and reputation. Would something similar apply to MD schools?

I initially stated that MD schools have no reason to put a DO as a dean or chairperson because:

1. There is already an oversupply of academic MDs
2. MD physicians would know how the MD school works (as well as the subtleties of ACGME/LCME policies) better than DO physicians

(Summarized from above discussion as well)

Is this right? Or is the answer really just reputation/politics? Because that seems simplistic and doesn't address the differences between ACGME/LCME and AOA/COCA accreditation standards that do play a role at the medical school administration level.

 

[Med Ed]

Don't worry. I'm avoiding that debate myself, but i'm wondering the reasons behind the criteria of choosing Deans. Goro has stated here that COCA requires the dean and chairmen of DO schools to be DOs. So this reason is something more than just politics and reputation. Would something similar apply to MD schools?

I initially stated that MD schools have no reason to put a DO as a dean or chairperson because:

1. There is already an oversupply of academic MDs
2. MD physicians would know how the MD school works (as well as the subtleties of ACGME/LCME policies) better than DO physicians

Is this right? Or is the answer really just reputation/politics? Because that seems simplistic and doesn't address the differences between ACGME/LCME and AOA/COCA accreditation standards that do play a role at the medical school administration level.

There is certainly no shortage of academic MDs who come out of the woodwork every time a dean's job opens, and some of them are quite accomplished. Alas, if Jesus Christ came back and went to osteopathic medical school, even he would be passed over in favor of an MD.

While the inner workings of the LCME are mysterious and idiosyncratic, the accreditation standards (and a zillion other documents) are openly available at http://www.lcme.org. I know of a couple of current deans who were hired in part because they have insider LCME knowledge, but most schools that need help along those lines turn to external consulting firms.

 

[Lawpy]

There is certainly no shortage of academic MDs who come out of the woodwork every time a dean's job opens, and some of them are quite accomplished. Alas, if Jesus Christ came back and went to osteopathic medical school, even he would be passed over in favor of an MD.

While the inner workings of the LCME are mysterious and idiosyncratic, the accreditation standards (and a zillion other documents) are openly available at http://www.lcme.org. I know of a couple of current deans who were hired in part because they have insider LCME knowledge, but most schools that need help along those lines turn to external consulting firms.

That's disappointing. Well, hopefully the merger can unite the two degrees so at least the barrier can be gradually disappear over time (i'm being optimistic )

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't know why you are struggling with this concept, according to the law MD and DO are legally the EXACT same thing... Just because a DO being dean of an MD school would be political does not mean that there is a difference... It's more about image and prestige and all the other nebulous concepts we humans tend to fascinate ourselves with.

Gotta agree with Lawper here-- equivalent practice rights isn't "the exact same thing". Again, with a proposed merger we might get to that point soon, but as of today it's different organizations, different schools and different (albeit subtle) differences in teaching/training.

 

[Goro]

Schools look for:

1) Proven leadership. You don't just go from being an Associate Professor to being THE Dean. Usually dean candidates have experience from being lower lever deans (like say, of a Clinical Medicine division, or a Curriculum or Student Affairs Dean).
2) They often are rain makers. That is, they know how to generate cash for thier schools.
3) They have to have a vision of where they want to take their school.
4) As Med Ed alluded to, they're good at networking.

Don't worry. I'm avoiding that debate myself, but i'm wondering the reasons behind the criteria of choosing Deans. Goro has stated here that COCA requires the dean and chairmen of DO schools to be DOs. So this reason is something more than just politics and reputation. Would something similar apply to MD schools?

I initially stated that MD schools have no reason to put a DO as a dean or chairperson because:

1. There is already an oversupply of academic MDs
2. MD physicians would know how the MD school works (as well as the subtleties of ACGME/LCME policies) better than DO physicians

(Summarized from above discussion as well)

Is this right? Or is the answer really just reputation/politics? Because that seems simplistic and doesn't address the differences between ACGME/LCME and AOA/COCA accreditation standards that do play a role at the medical school administration level.

 

[Med Ed]

equivalent practice rights isn't "the exact same thing".

Since you may have missed it in post #35:

That does not make them identical,

 

[Law2Doc]

Since you may have missed it in post #35:

Sorry, didn't mean to snub you. Agree with both of you and Lawper on this point and disagree with AnatomyGrey.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry, didn't mean to snub you. Agree with both of you and Lawper on this point and disagree with AnatomyGrey.

Well I agree with all of you as well in principle, my comment was more for Lawper in that according to the law MD=DO and that one must look elsewhere for reasons that a DO can't become a dean at an MD institution. It's like MedEd mentioned, LCME could come and accredit all DO schools and it would still he nigh impossible for a DO to be a dean. You could give all DO schools HMS' rotations and that fact wouldn't change. It's politics and other nebulous factors like I mentioned before. I definitely acknowledge the small differences in MD and DO pathways but I don't think those play a role in whether or not a DO could be a dean

 

[Med Ed]

Well I agree with all of you as well in principle, my comment was more for Lawper in that according to the law MD=DO and that one must look elsewhere for reasons that a DO can't become a dean at an MD institution. It's like MedEd mentioned, LCME could come and accredit all DO schools and it would still he nigh impossible for a DO to be a dean. You could give all DO schools HMS' rotations and that fact wouldn't change. It's politics and other nebulous factors like I mentioned before. I definitely acknowledge the small differences in MD and DO pathways but I don't think those play a role in whether or not a DO could be a dean

This is a surprisingly nebulous discussion.

 

[kidsuave]

Hi everyone. As the school year is about to start, its looking like I am going to have to attend a DO school in the coming year, which I have no problem with. However, in the future I am interested in getting involved in medical politics and potentially trying to become a dean of an MD school or become a major player in the AMA. Will either of these things be possible as a DO graduate?

That moment when you are worrying about being the dean of the medical school while i am just trying to become a doctor LOL