Post-Bacc Question, w/ a sub 3.0 UG GPA

[threemileisle]

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Hey all, I've browsed through hundreds of your posts on this forum and elsewhere and, amazingly, I still can't find a definitive answer. I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread as there are similar ones floating around, but I do feel that post-bacc programs could use clarification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the synopsis: Resident of CA and screwed up as a bio undergrad before graduating 2 years ago. As it stands now, dental school admission is out of the question. With a terrible GPA, sci 2.5, overall 2.7, both a formal postbacc program and any sort of grad program are unlikely.

For the sake of precision, I'll list my questions numerically.

1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

2) Relatedly, I've found some schools that offer 2nd-bac programs. The advantage is that it keeps financial aid available while giving higher priority for class registration. The question: if both factor into GPA (do they? see question 4), what advantage is there to an open informal postbacc where one structures their own schedule, while losing financial aid and registration priority? Why wouldn't everybody pursue a second UG degree while also raising their GPA?

3) A. When one re-takes a course, is the former grade wiped away?
B. If not, there's no point in re-taking those courses/pre-reqs, correct?

4) On predents.com, I see postbacc GPA listed separately from UG GPA.
A. Does postbacc GPA have no effect on UG GPA, or is it averaged with the UG GPA?
B. For example, two years of a 4.0 postbacc GPA raises an overall undergrad GPA from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Would the application list a GPA of 2.5 or 3.0?
C. Also, would the 4.0 postbacc GPA be formally listed by itself, or is it something that Aadsas take into account by themselves?

5) A. Is postbacc an umbrella term that includes both graduate AND undergraduate work?
B. In general, when postbacc is referenced, are people referring to upper level undergrad work to raise undergrad GPA?

6) It seems that the general consensus is that it is preferable to raise the UG GPA, rather than engaging in graduate work. This is because, no matter how stellar one's graduate work is, a sub 3.0 UG GPA would most likely be screened out. Agree or disagree?

7) Are SMPs (special master's programs) relevant for pre-dent students, or are they geared towards pre-med?

8) In regards to formal postbaccs vs informal postbacs, next to the advantages listed in the FAQ, most formal postbaccs will award some type of certification after completion. Is this true?

9) Assuming the current GPA (2.5 - 2.7), with a score of 23-24 on the DAT in the 99th percentile, what are the chances of admission anywhere?

Conclusion:
From what I've gathered, and this is subject to change depending on the answers I receive for the questions above, this is what should be done:

- Enroll in informal postbacc coursework.
- Keep up with the ECs.

What's next?

10) One year of postbacc to bump the GPA up to get into a grad school, one year of informal postbacc followed by application to a formal postbacc (or an SMP..?), or go on with two years of informal undergrad postbacc?

I realize this has been a long and rambling message, and I feel like a leech for picking your brains without giving anything back, but I really could use some help.

Thanks in advance.

-Phil

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Hey all, I've browsed through hundreds of your posts on this forum and elsewhere and, amazingly, I still can't find a definitive answer. I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread as there are similar ones floating around, but I do feel that post-bacc programs could use clarification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

no problem.

Here's the synopsis: Resident of CA and screwed up as a bio undergrad before graduating 2 years ago. As it stands now, dental school admission is out of the question. With a terrible GPA, sci 2.5, overall 2.7, both a formal postbacc program and any sort of grad program are unlikely.

Your numbers are very close to mine when I graduated!

For the sake of precision, I'll list my questions numerically.

1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

I graduated from a UC school so I enrolled at a CalState because of $$. I didn't re-take the pre-reqs, although some do. I took upper division bio classes and got a 3.67 for both fall and spring semesters. I would advise to re-take pre-reqs ONLY if you feel that you really need it, otherwise retaking won't help you...re-takes are averaged on the amcas (unless you choose to go DO on which case they take the most recent grade).

2) Relatedly, I've found some schools that offer 2nd-bac programs. The advantage is that it keeps financial aid available while giving higher priority for class registration. The question: if both factor into GPA (do they? see question 4), what advantage is there to an open informal postbacc where one structures their own schedule, while losing financial aid and registration priority? Why wouldn't everybody pursue a second UG degree while also raising their GPA?

The advantage for me was that I was able to take courses when I wanted and work 25 hours a week. Doing a formal postbac is a good idea if you don't have any dependents or have to work. Also, I only poured $3500, which is tax deductible, for my courses because I commuted to and from school and bought used books (if at all).

3) A. When one re-takes a course, is the former grade wiped away?
B. If not, there's no point in re-taking those courses/pre-reqs, correct?

You basically answered your own question...they are never wiped away, they are averaged together on the amcas and DO schools still see the previous grade, they just use the most recent grade when calculating your gpa.

4) On predents.com, I see postbacc GPA listed separately from UG GPA.
A. Does postbacc GPA have no effect on UG GPA, or is it averaged with the UG GPA?

Post bac course work is listed seperately since it was not completed during undergrad, however, if your postbac classes are ugrad classes they will be averaged into your ugrad gpa.

B. For example, two years of a 4.0 postbacc GPA raises an overall undergrad GPA from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Would the application list a GPA of 2.5 or 3.0?

Both. They would list 2.5 for your ugrad gpa while in ugrad, 4.0 for post bac, and then 3.0 for your combined ugrad gpa.

C. Also, would the 4.0 postbacc GPA be formally listed by itself, or is it something that Aadsas take into account by themselves?

see above.

5) A. Is postbacc an umbrella term that includes both graduate AND undergraduate work?

many people refer to postbac as upper division undergraduate coursework completed after having attained a degree.

B. In general, when postbacc is referenced, are people referring to upper level undergrad work to raise undergrad GPA?

Yes.

6) It seems that the general consensus is that it is preferable to raise the UG GPA, rather than engaging in graduate work. This is because, no matter how stellar one's graduate work is, a sub 3.0 UG GPA would most likely be screened out. Agree or disagree?

Agree.

7) Are SMPs (special master's programs) relevant for pre-dent students, or are they geared towards pre-med?

I believe some programs have a dental track. I am not sure which ones though...you will have to research individual programs for this info.

8) In regards to formal postbaccs vs informal postbacs, next to the advantages listed in the FAQ, most formal postbaccs will award some type of certification after completion. Is this true?

If not a certification then an actual degree (like if you were a second degree seeking student or something like that). This doesn't really matter because what would you use the 'certificate' for anyways? Wallpaper? It certainly wouldn't mean as much as your 4 year undergraduate degree...at least to the job market it won't.

9) Assuming the current GPA (2.5 - 2.7), with a score of 23-24 on the DAT in the 99th percentile, what are the chances of admission anywhere?

To dental school? zero (my guess though)
To smp? 15% (with very strong letters of rec)

You need to do some sort of post bac work before applying to smp. Also, most formal post bacs that have ugrad coursework are for people that need to complete the pre-reqs (i.e. they have not yet completed them). In CA you will most likely have to do postbac on your own. Nothing wrong with that..I did it and got into 3 SMPs after a year of informal post bac.

Conclusion:
From what I've gathered, and this is subject to change depending on the answers I receive for the questions above, this is what should be done:

- Enroll in informal postbacc coursework.
- Keep up with the ECs.

What's next?

Yes, this is the plan you should be doing.

10) One year of postbacc to bump the GPA up to get into a grad school, one year of informal postbacc followed by application to a formal postbacc (or an SMP..?), or go on with two years of informal undergrad postbacc?

I did one year of informal postbac to bump up the gpa and then applied to SMPs (be sure you apply early when you do apply).

I am not sure how much 2 years of ugrad coursework will improve your gpa. You need to be 3.0 or above to make it past UC's screening. This is why smps are so great, you can get by with the lower gpa if you show that you performed well in an smp. SMP goes a long way, much further than 2 years of informal post bac will do.

However, you need to get 3.0 to be competitive for smp. So...1 year informal post bac+SMP ~ Dental School. You get the picture

I realize this has been a long and rambling message, and I feel like a leech for picking your brains without giving anything back, but I really could use some help.

Thanks in advance.

-Phil

Yes it was a long message but no worries...I hope I answered all of your questions!

-PlAnEjaNe

 

[threemileisle]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond! I definitely have a better grasp of the situation. I do have several more questions for you..

The advantage for me was that I was able to take courses when I wanted and work 25 hours a week. Doing a formal postbac is a good idea if you don't have any dependents or have to work. Also, I only poured $3500, which is tax deductible, for my courses because I commuted to and from school and bought used books (if at all).

After a year of post-bac, were you able to raise your GPA above the 3.0 threshold? Or did it remain slightly below a 3.0, with you deciding that an SMP would be of more value than a second year of post-bac?

Also, after starting your SMP, are you allowed to concurrently take undergrad courses to improve your UG GPA, while also completing your SMP? Some people were saying that once a SMP is started, all courses would count towards the graduate GPA, as opposed the undergrad GPA, regardless of whether or not it is an undergrad class.

I am not sure how much 2 years of ugrad coursework will improve your gpa. You need to be 3.0 or above to make it past UC's screening. This is why smps are so great, you can get by with the lower gpa if you show that you performed well in an smp. SMP goes a long way, much further than 2 years of informal post bac will do.

However, you need to get 3.0 to be competitive for smp. So...1 year informal post bac+SMP ~ Dental School. You get the picture

I'm a little bit confused here. Based on my calculations, 1.5 - 2 years of at least a 3.8 post-bac GPA is necessary to raise the cum GPA to a 3.0. So, either way, two years of post-bac work is needed to even consider an SMP, right?

Lastly, an informal post-bac student is non-degreed? Did you ever encounter difficulty in registering for classes?

More importantly, if one can re-enroll and pursue a second bac, which opens the door to financial aid and earlier class registration, what is to prevent one from doing this? Obtain the second bac status as a technicality, then not take any classes related to the bac, and registering only for upper div science classes for the GPA boost?

Thanks again!

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond! I definitely have a better grasp of the situation. I do have several more questions for you..

No problem.

After a year of post-bac, were you able to raise your GPA above the 3.0 threshold? Or did it remain slightly below a 3.0, with you deciding that an SMP would be of more value than a second year of post-bac?

My gpa is now a 2.9. I decided that at this point an smp would be the quickest way to what I want...I would still need to do another year of postbac work to bring my gpa up to say...3.1 and that is still not competitive with med schools.

Also, after starting your SMP, are you allowed to concurrently take undergrad courses to improve your UG GPA, while also completing your SMP? Some people were saying that once a SMP is started, all courses would count towards the graduate GPA, as opposed the undergrad GPA, regardless of whether or not it is an undergrad class.

You can take ugrad classes if you want, however, it most likely will not be possible with the amount of courseload an smp entails. All courses within the smp are counted as graduate courses (since the courses are either medical school courses or graduate courses required for the M.S. or M.A. degree). Any ugrad classes you take on your own will count as ugrad courses (if they are ala carte as you say). The only program that has ugrad classes is Drexel's MSP program and that is only 2-3 courses of ugrad courses so it doesn't really do much for the gpa as a whole.

I'm a little bit confused here. Based on my calculations, 1.5 - 2 years of at least a 3.8 post-bac GPA is necessary to raise the cum GPA to a 3.0. So, either way, two years of post-bac work is needed to even consider an SMP, right?

Yes, your gpa will 3.0. However, you still will not be competitive for med school admissions. Your gpa needs to be at least 3.5-3.6 at a minimum...how many years of postbac work is that?!! (A LOT!!). This is where the smp comes into play. Once you get your gpa up to 3.0 you can then apply to and complete and smp, this will allow you to 'bypass' all those extra years it will take you to get your gpa up to a competitive range and still be a strong candidate for med schools.

Lastly, an informal post-bac student is non-degreed? Did you ever encounter difficulty in registering for classes?

Yes, I was an open university student to be exact. I never really had any difficulty getting classes. It was intimidating because the first day of class is when open university can sign up for courses and there are so many ugrads that want to take the same courses as you, however, if you are taking upper division bio classes many of the times the students drop the course and take their name off the waitlist. For example, I went to the first day of the first course in a two-semester long biochem class and the waitlist was over 20 people long....when I asked the professor what my chances were he basically said 'none'...however, low-and-behold, the next week I was asked if I would like to add the class. I ended up not taking it because I found another class I was way more interested in. Essentially, if you keep going to the classes and let the professors know you want to add the course you will find little resistance. I actually had a prof. beg me to not drop her class last semester (I didn't have the pre-req and thought I would be OK....wow, I was wrong...I quickly dropped that class like a bad habit!).

More importantly, if one can re-enroll and pursue a second bac, which opens the door to financial aid and earlier class registration, what is to prevent one from doing this? Obtain the second bac status as a technicality, then not take any classes related to the bac, and registering only for upper div science classes for the GPA boost?

Thanks again!

There is no drawback really to pursuing a second bac, I didn't want to go through the app process and was able to pay for the courses on my own so I didn't really need the financial aid. The only drawback that I can think of is that if you are not a bio major you may be restricted from certain bio classes that are 'major only' courses. I saw a few of these at the CalState I went to, it doesn't apply to you if you are extension/open university student.


I hope this has cleared up all of your questions!


-PlAnEjaNe

 

[cutievans]

What everyone advised the OP is quite true, but the OP can always opt for formal postbacc programs. I am talking about the formal postbaccs that are not SMP, as in you do take higher level science classes but they are not classes you take with medical school students. There are some formal postbacc programs that do not have a high gpa/mcat requirement and if you do well you might have a good shot at their medical school. Check out VCU's postbacc certificate programs. they have 6 of those, and search for the recent thread on that one. Instatewaiter has posted several times on VCU threads and has great advice. Another postbacc that takes a low is LECOM.

 

[Instatewaiter]

VCU has 2 distinct programs: one is undergraduate courses where you take upper level sciences (post-bac) while the other is graduate level much like an SMP (Certificate program). In this graduate program you essentially take the first year medical curriculum.

The requirements for acceptance are very low which is excellent if you have something to prove. I did the later, SMP-like program. I had a 2.8 GPA in Ugrad and a 33MCAT yet after a year of doing well in the program was accepted to MCV (aka VCU). This program is a great way to skip years of Ugrad coursework but it very, very difficult.

While this program is a great way to make up for a lousy GPA, I think I would still recommend doing a year of post-bac and then applying to SMPs such as VCU or LECOM.

Oh and a friend of mine from the program was pre-dent and got into VCU dental so it will help you get into dental school.