Post-Doc Required for Employment at VA

[Throw Away2]

I am wondering if in order to be employed at the VA, that one must do a post-doc. Everyone I've asked says it is not, but I cannot meet anyone who is actually employed at a VA that did not do a post-doc with them.

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[AcronymAllergy]

No. I've known multiple folks who've gone straight from internship (VA and otherwise) to VA employment. Having a VA postdoc can help, but it's not necessary. Exception being neuropsychology, for which a fellowship will probably be either required or strongly preferred.

If you don't have a year of experience, you'll likely start as a GS-11 until you get the year and are licensed.

 

[erg923]

I am wondering if in order to be employed at the VA, that one must do a post-doc. Everyone I've asked says it is not, but I cannot meet anyone who is actually employed at a VA that did not do a post-doc with them.

Worked at a VA for 5 years---I didnt do a post-doc at the VA.

 

[Sanman]

Are you talking no post-doc at the VA, no formal post-doc, or no post-doc at all? I know a few people, including myself, that took a job instead of a formal post-doc and were supervised who now work at a VA as well as several that did post-docs in other places. There are some states that will license you straight out of grad school, but that is fairly new so I am not sure how hiring committees are looking at that. However, post-docs are becoming more standard for many VA positions, especially in the more competitive ones. My feeling is that if you don't do one, you will need a few years of experience as a licensed clinician to get hired.

 

[Throw Away2]

Are you talking no post-doc at the VA, no formal post-doc, or no post-doc at all? I know a few people, including myself, that took a job instead of a formal post-doc and were supervised who now work at a VA as well as several that did post-docs in other places. There are some states that will license you straight out of grad school, but that is fairly new so I am not sure how hiring committees are looking at that. However, post-docs are becoming more standard for many VA positions, especially in the more competitive ones. My feeling is that if you don't do one, you will need a few years of experience as a licensed clinician to get hired.

I'm talking being hired at a VA right out of internship. So no post-doc at all. I figured that it was the case that I would need some sort of post-doc. Its ridiculous how much training psychologist are expected to undergo before we are paid a livable wage. Most of the post-docs are 45K, which seems ridiculously low to me!

 

[erg923]

I'm talking being hired at a VA right out of internship. So no post-doc at all. I figured that it was the case that I would need some sort of post-doc. Its ridiculous how much training psychologist are expected to undergo before we are paid a livable wage. Most of the post-docs are 45K, which seems ridiculously low to me!

2 of the interns from my former VAs 2015-2016 class got hired on by VAs right out of internship. The locations were semi-rural though, so the competition wasn/t much for them.

 

[Sanman]

I'm talking being hired at a VA right out of internship. So no post-doc at all. I figured that it was the case that I would need some sort of post-doc. Its ridiculous how much training psychologist are expected to undergo before we are paid a livable wage. Most of the post-docs are 45K, which seems ridiculously low to me!

If I recall, we hired a couple of interns last year while staffing a bunch of positions. Mental health clinic mostly. It happens. Depends on the need as well. Jobs that are less competitive often make good candidates. And $45k was good money for a post-doc when I came out of internship. I know of at least one place that offered me $25k for post-doc. I took a $50k job instead. Luckily salaries have improved since the great recession.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

You do not need a postdoc. Seek licensure in a state that does not require this and you are good to go. I personally know several VA psychologists who took staff jobs right out of internship and did no postdoc. It did create problems when they wanted to leave VA...

 

[CatLover&PsychEnthusiast]

And $45k was good money for a post-doc when I came out of internship. I know of at least one place that offered me $25k for post-doc. I took a $50k job instead. Luckily salaries have improved since the great recession.

I agree with OP that it’s low. Approx 5 yrs ago I was making over $45k with my BA as a research coordinator at a med school before grad school. I wouldn’t prefer doing something else with my career. However, I wonder if as a whole, our mindset of ‘this is okay pay’ may be partially shooting us in the foot as a field. Just a thought.

 

[Sanman]

I agree with OP that it’s low. Approx 5 yrs ago I was making over $45k with my BA as a research coordinator at a med school before grad school. I wouldn’t prefer doing something else with my career. However, I wonder if as a whole, our mindset of ‘this is okay pay’ may be partially shooting us in the foot as a field. Just a thought.

It has little to do with mindset. As most people are not eligible for licensure prior to post-doc, funding becomes an issue. If post-docs in all states were licensed and able to bill for services, finances would improve. My previous point was that it has been improving in the last decade. Under $40k used to be the norm. I dont disagree that pay should be a bit higher at that level and overall.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It has little to do with mindset. As most people are not eligible for licensure prior to post-doc, funding becomes an issue. If post-docs in all states were licensed and able to bill for services, finances would improve. My previous point was that it has been improving in the last decade. Under $40k used to be the norm. I dont disagree that pay should be a bit higher at that level and overall.

Iirc, around $45k is the NIH recommended salary for a post-doc fresh out of grad school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Iirc, around $45k is the NIH recommended salary for a post-doc fresh out of grad school.

It's also similar to what medical residents make (sans moonlighting) for about half the hours. So I suppose that's somewhat heartening.

But as others have mentioned, much of the pay/funding issue comes down to postdocs often not yet being license-eligible, which substantially impacts the ability to bill insurance for their services.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if you opt to get licensed in a state that does not require supervised experience, if possible, I would still encourage you to obtain formal supervision during your first year. Not doing so can make it difficult to later apply for licensure in states that require the supervised year should you move.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's also similar to what medical residents make (sans moonlighting) for about half the hours. So I suppose that's somewhat heartening.

But as others have mentioned, much of the pay/funding issue comes down to postdocs often not yet being license-eligible, which substantially impacts the ability to bill insurance for their services.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if you opt to get licensed in a state that does not require supervised experience, if possible, I would still encourage you to obtain formal supervision during your first year. Not doing so can make it difficult to later apply for licensure in states that require the supervised year should you move.

This is a big thing that trainees don't see until they are on the other side. It's easy to gripe about being paid low salaries on internship and postdoc. But, the truth of the matter is, these positions lose us money. It's a loss because what we can bill for usually does not come close to covering their salaries and benefits. And, we lose more on the fact that supervisors either have to devote FTE time to unbillable hours, or simply volunteer extra time to get it done. In many situations, those pay scales are more than our departments can afford in reality. Just another good reason to get politically involved and advocate for state and federal monies to support education and training at the doctoral level.

 

[CatLover&PsychEnthusiast]

This conversation is illuminating, I appreciate all the info here. Definitely learned some new things!

And I agree, can’t see this until we’re on the other side. I do wonder as a field what we could do different in the future to create a better business model for our field on the whole. Doing better at marketing our skills/advocating for ourselves. I believe we are a very skilled and hard working field as a whole, but the issue of lesser trained areas competing for the same corner of our market (broadly speaking) and a long time for our hard work to financially pay off seems to be something I think our field should work on improving. It’s a tall order that’s obviously not changing any time soon.

(Agree with @WisNeuro’s point about advocacy to support education)