Postbac?

[Briyo2289]

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Hello,

First post here. I saw some similar threads, but I wanted some feedback about my specific situation, so Im sorry if this is a tired old question.

I have a BA in philosophy (3.64 gpa) and an MA in philosophy (3.9 gpa). For the last three years I have been an adjunct philosophy professor at a few different schools. Through my philosophical interests I became intetested in physchology and psychoanalysis, but eventually realized that 1) most prominent "psychologists" were themselves medical psychiatrists and 2) psychiatry has way more opportunities and avenues to explore the mind compared to getting a doctorate in psychology. So, I want to become a psychiatrist, but I don't have the prereqs.

So, is there a major advantage to doing a postbacc premed program as opposed to signing up for a bunch of science classes on my own, without a structuted program? Also, will my previous MA help at all? Will my MA gpa be taken into consideration over my lower undergrad gpa? Should I look into prebacc programs that are "linked" to med schools so I have an easier transition getting accepted?

Sorry for all the questions. I've just revently realized that this is the path I want to take, and am not sure where to start. I know the MCAT will be huge, snd I'm okay with studying for 300 hours, I'm just trying to construct a general plan.

Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[Briyo2289]

Also, does anyone have any information on the postbac program at University of Louisville School of Medicine? I live in Nashville, and this seems to be the closest program to my area.

Edit: I named the wrong school, but fixed it.

 

[Goro]

Nope. Cheaper to DIY as well.
So, is there a major advantage to doing a postbacc premed program as opposed to signing up for a bunch of science classes on my own, without a structuted program?

No.
Also, will my previous MA help at all?

No.
Will my MA gpa be taken into consideration over my lower undergrad gpa?

Usually med schools have SMPs, which are auditions for med school and contain med school coursework, like Aantomy, Physiology Histology, etc. They don't have the pre-req courses. I do recommend these once you get your pre-reqs (and MCAT) out of the way, because the Faculty teaching these get to know you, and as such, you're a known commodity.
Should I look into prebacc programs that are "linked" to med schools so I have an easier transition getting accepted?

Read everything in this form written by the wise @DrMidlife
Any advice is much appreciated

 

[QofQuimica]

This is not the era of Freud; most psychiatrists do NOT do psychoanalysis. In fact, if becoming a therapist of any type is your ultimate goal, you will likely not find pursuing a medical degree to be the best option. Before you go crazy taking a dozen science classes and shelling out thousands of dollars for a post bac, you should start by making sure that medicine is really what you want to do. Becoming a psychiatrist will take you a MINIMUM of ten years: two for post bac/applying, four for med school, and four for residency. It will conservatively cost you at least a quarter of a million dollars, not including the income lost from quitting your current job. So pursuing a medical degree is not a good way to dabble in mental health or to otherwise "find yourself" if you're not already sure that you want to be a physician when you grow up.

What direct experience do you have with psychiatry? If the answer to that question is "none," then that is where you need to start. Some ideas: volunteer for a suicide hotline, at an addiction center, at a free clinic that specializes in helping the underserved who cannot afford health care, or at a Planned Parenthood. Aim to spend at least a year at 2-4 hours per week (so 100-200 hours in all). That is a low minimum amount of clinical experience for a med school applicant (many people apply with several hundred or even a few thousand hours), but probably adequate to help you make an informed career decision.

If you do decide that you want to pursue medicine, the next step is to start taking the prereqs. If you've never taken any hard science classes before, you may want to start by taking a single class to get your feet wet. I personally think that starting with a math class (either trig, stats, or calculus) is the best way to start, since you need a good math foundation for your chem and physics prereqs. It goes without saying that earning excellent grades (ideally a GPA of 3.8 or better) is a must. You also can (and should) continue volunteering during your post bac to accumulate additional clinical hours.

 

[Briyo2289]

This is not the era of Freud; most psychiatrists do NOT do psychoanalysis. In fact, if becoming a therapist of any type is your ultimate goal, you will likely not find pursuing a medical degree to be the best option. Before you go crazy taking a dozen science classes and shelling out thousands of dollars for a post bac, you should start by making sure that medicine is really what you want to do. Becoming a psychiatrist will take you a MINIMUM of ten years: two for post bac/applying, four for med school, and four for residency. It will conservatively cost you at least a quarter of a million dollars, not including the income lost from quitting your current job. So pursuing a medical degree is not a good way to dabble in mental health or to otherwise "find yourself" if you're not already sure that you want to be a physician when you grow up.

What direct experience do you have with psychiatry? If the answer to that question is "none," then that is where you need to start. Some ideas: volunteer for a suicide hotline, at an addiction center, at a free clinic that specializes in helping the underserved who cannot afford health care, or at a Planned Parenthood. Aim to spend at least a year at 2-4 hours per week (so 100-200 hours in all). That is a low minimum amount of clinical experience for a med school applicant (many people apply with several hundred or even a few thousand hours), but probably adequate to help you make an informed career decision.

If you do decide that you want to pursue medicine, the next step is to start taking the prereqs. If you've never taken any hard science classes before, you may want to start by taking a single class to get your feet wet. I personally think that starting with a math class (either trig, stats, or calculus) is the best way to start, since you need a good math foundation for your chem and physics prereqs. It goes without saying that earning excellent grades (ideally a GPA of 3.8 or better) is a must. You also can (and should) continue volunteering during your post bac to accumulate additional clinical hours.

I appreciate some of the advice, but why are you being so condescending? I am fully aware that it is not the year 1890, nor do I think anything I wrote indicated that I thought this was the era of Freud. Likewise, I am not sure why you presume I am some twaddling juvenile who wants to play doctor until I "find myself", whatever that means.

On a more constructive note, I am aware of the costs, and the time, and the idea to volunteer at a suicide hotline or Planned Parenthood is very good, thank you. My original question was about postbac programs which you partially address. Are you saying that it is better overall too complete the prereqs piece by piece, or are you recommending that to me personally because of a perceived immaturity? I would like to know, because if I do pursue medicine, I am trying to figure out whether or not it is beneficial to enroll in a 2-year postbac program or whether I should take the classes at a local university on my own.

I also am curious about your comment that psychiatry is not the right choice if I want to do any type of therapy. I seem to her many different things about this, and would like to her more of why you are saying this, since you are in the field. I know that many psychiatrists work in psych wards at hospitals, or in other large settings like prisons where they largely keep people correctly diagnosed and medicated. But is also seems that there are many private practice psychiatrists who do engage in a lot of talk therapy.

If what I am about to say is misinformed, someone please correct me: It seems that insofar as the human mind is either identical with or largely dependent on the functioning of the brain, one would not be able to properly treat mental disorders without medical knowledge of the brain. I mean no disrespect to professional psychologists with that remark, but don't psychiatrists have a better vantage point from which to deal with mental issues? I am interested in 1) dealing with people whom I can help, 2) the complexity of the human mind, and 3) exploring the vast, largely unexplored realm of effective methods of how treat mental disorders. It seems that a psychiatrist is naturally fit to do this better than a psychologist because he/she is medically trained and is NOT prohibited from learning psychoanalysis--or whatever from of non-pharmaceutical therapies that exist to treat the mentally ill--in addition to the prescribing of drugs. Like I said, if I am misinformed about this, please correct me. I am merely trying to get information about how I would most efficiently proceed were I to pursue a career in psychiatry.

 

[QofQuimica]

No condescension intended. Merely wanting to point out that if you want to do a certain job, you need to have the proper tools. And considering that you are here basically asking if psychiatry training is the proper tool to become a psychoanalyst (along with asking about the logistics of postbacs), my argument is that you ought to tackle the first question (is an MD necessary/the correct degree to get in order to pursue a career in psychoanalysis) before you go tackling the mechanics of completing a post bac. I'm trying to tell you that no, an MD is NOT necessary to do what you want to do, and in fact, the good news is that you could almost certainly accomplish your goal of becoming a therapist much more cheaply and quickly via another path.

 

[Naruhodo]

This is not my field, but one of my mother's best friends is a clinical psychology who is head of her department at a major hospital and well regarded by many MD colleagues. Since I don't come from a family of doctors and prior to my current job didn't know many personally, she was actually the person who hooked me up with some incredible shadowing opportunities after college so that I could learn more about medicine. Although I have the support of my family applying to medical school, my mother has on occasion asked if there wasn't some way that I could use my PhD to see patients, as her friend X does. Sadly, I believe clinical psychology is a unique animal in that sense. Unfortunately, I think getting into clinical psych training programs may be nearly on par with getting into medical school in terms of competitiveness (I've heard there are about ~300 applicants for 8 positions in the average program), but something to at least consider since you are early in the planning process. Good luck with whatever path you decide to take!

 

[jl lin]

Some do therapy, and some do not. More and more of the latter is the deal today. Depends on a number of things, variables. In private practice, shoot, you don't even seen a lot of psychiatrists taking insurance....cash only deals. It's a shame b/c of the crummy reimbursement. I have mixed feelings about this, but I do know that many areas are looking for and hiring psychiatric nurse practitioners, for the above reasons and other reasons. The ugly truth is healthcare and medicine is a sight worse than it used to be. Standards haver really dropped in many areas, though they say, "No. They have just changed." What they do is get some marginal studies thrown into Systematic Reviews and used that push the globalist approach to care, as we move more and more into a socialized system. The "justice" is about more being getting less and holding lessened standards. That is the sad and disgraceful thing about medicine, which is a sight different than 20+ years ago in terms of quality and standards of practice. Of course there are some exceptions, but it is the globalism/socialist push that underlies a lot of these subpar changes. Sorry that ways my unrelated rant, but after seeing what I have seen lately, it is really tough to stomach.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think you might be a bit defensive. Q is definitely not a condescending person, particularly on the nontrad side of things. That post was nothing but helpful and informative.

I appreciate some of the advice, but why are you being so condescending? I am fully aware that it is not the year 1890, nor do I think anything I wrote indicated that I thought this was the era of Freud. Likewise, I am not sure why you presume I am some twaddling juvenile who wants to play doctor until I "find myself", whatever that means.

You mentioned psychoanalysis and being interested in exploring the mind. Most psychiatrists do not engage in that type of stuff.

On a more constructive note, I am aware of the costs, and the time, and the idea to volunteer at a suicide hotline or Planned Parenthood is very good, thank you. My original question was about postbac programs which you partially address. Are you saying that it is better overall too complete the prereqs piece by piece, or are you recommending that to me personally because of a perceived immaturity? I would like to know, because if I do pursue medicine, I am trying to figure out whether or not it is beneficial to enroll in a 2-year postbac program or whether I should take the classes at a local university on my own.

Unless you are unable to plan things out and stick to them, a DIY postbac is typically much cheaper and more flexible than a structured one. There's no need to do an expensive, structured program if you can do it for cheaper and on your time (ie, if you need to take night classes, Saturday classes, etc).

I also am curious about your comment that psychiatry is not the right choice if I want to do any type of therapy. I seem to her many different things about this, and would like to her more of why you are saying this, since you are in the field. I know that many psychiatrists work in psych wards at hospitals, or in other large settings like prisons where they largely keep people correctly diagnosed and medicated. But is also seems that there are many private practice psychiatrists who do engage in a lot of talk therapy.

I know there are definitely some psychiatrists that do therapy, because I have seen them posting on here. That said, many in the psych forum warn prospective psychiatrists that most do not.

If what I am about to say is misinformed, someone please correct me: It seems that insofar as the human mind is either identical with or largely dependent on the functioning of the brain, one would not be able to properly treat mental disorders without medical knowledge of the brain. I mean no disrespect to professional psychologists with that remark, but don't psychiatrists have a better vantage point from which to deal with mental issues? I am interested in 1) dealing with people whom I can help, 2) the complexity of the human mind, and 3) exploring the vast, largely unexplored realm of effective methods of how treat mental disorders. It seems that a psychiatrist is naturally fit to do this better than a psychologist because he/she is medically trained and is NOT prohibited from learning psychoanalysis--or whatever from of non-pharmaceutical therapies that exist to treat the mentally ill--in addition to the prescribing of drugs. Like I said, if I am misinformed about this, please correct me. I am merely trying to get information about how I would most efficiently proceed were I to pursue a career in psychiatry.

They don't necessarily do the same job. My sister is close to getting her PhD in clinical psychology. She focuses on distance therapy for gastric bypass patients who cannot keep the weight off and don't have access to support/therapy. She plans to do something similar once she has her PhD. Not your C/L type of thing, and a lot of the psychologists I know are more niche focused.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

There are a lot of career paths in medicine that don't involve getting an MD - not just Psych. I think what Q and Matt are trying to point out is just the fact that pursuing an MD is a difficult path. The last few years we have seen the number of applicants swell (now past 40K), while the number of available seats remain relatively stagnant.

You may be fine with the 10+ years it will take, but what happens after 4 years if you don't get into an MD program after reapplying? I say this not to scare you, but as someone who was an older, career changing applicant who had to reapply.

Also, what happens in 7 years if you don't match into a psych residency? Is your MD only so you can pursue a more in-depth psychological career? Would you be happy in any other specialty? If your answer is, "I won't know until I try them." then I suggest, as other have, that you take some time to shadow or volunteer in a non-psych medical setting and see how you feel. You'll have to go through 2 years of pre-reqs, then 2 years of didactics and then once you hit 3rd year, you'll only be doing psych for maybe 4-8 weeks (depending on the school).

Look. None of us are trying to stop you from pursuing your goals. Yours seem well-intentioned. We just want to make sure that you know what you're getting into and before you start picking postbac programs, you gain some clinical exposure to validate your choices.