postdoc before finishing dissertation

[jltpsyd]

Hey everyone,

I searched the forum using a few key words and didn't find this question answered before. I am dealing with a difficulty related to finishing my dissertation prior to going on postdoc. Without going into the weeds of it, I have "faculty non-availability" from July 1 to August 19. I am in the 3rd round of edits with my chair and am probably very close to ready to set a date (hoping to do so next week). However, this date will have to be after August 19. Incidentally, my first day of postdoc is supposed to be August 19th, meaning there is no way I will complete my dissertation before my anticipated start date. I just found out about this situation yesterday. I know I need to talk to the training director at my postdoc site, and I plan to spend the weekend sending out these e-mails so that they will be seen first thing Monday morning.

Basically I am wondering if people have had (or are aware of experiences) where someone is still able to start postdoc on time without having defended their dissertation yet. Are there certain determining factors that influence whether this is allowed? Fwiw, my postdoc is clinical with a non-APA accredited VA hospital. Or will I most likely have to delay my start date until I have successfully defended? Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!

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[PsyDr]

Dissertation is the end all. Post doc means NOTHING without a successfully defended dissertation. Do not be one of those idiots who lets life get in the way of finishing your dissertation.

That being said, there’s an almost zero percent chance your post doc hasn’t dealt with this situation before. Check your licensing laws, because this sounds like a pretty big thing where the law likely reads “after graduating” or something like that. In full neurotic mode, I could see your program not officially graduating you until January, and your state only counting Jan-end of post doc, which could put you at insufficient hours.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with what PSYDR said. States will sometimes not count post-doc hours toward licensure until your degree has been conferred, and with a potential August or September defense date, you may not walk until Winter commencement. The same situation can sometimes occur with VA employment when they're considering you're incoming Grade (i.e., they might only count experience accrued after degree conferment).

In the situations I know of in which this has occurred, the postdoc start date was pushed back. With VA hospitals specifically, while they can have a person start before the degree has been conferred, I don't think they're allowed to onboard you if all degree requirements have not been met. So it's likely your fellowship director will have no choice but to delay. Fortunately, postdocs tend to be more flexible than internship with respect to start and end dates.

 

[calimich]

My university had a quirk in the registrar's timeline such that doctoral degrees completed over summer didn't officially post until December. However, the department had an official standard letter which stated something like "all degree requirements were met on XXX date" which was sufficient for licencing boards and did not delay accrual of post doc hours. Perhaps you can ask for a similar letter.

and sometimes life getting in the way has nothing to do with whether one is an idiot or not -- in my program we had several students' progress set back due to "faculty non-availability" because their chairperson unexpectedly died and another student who was delayed due to cancer treatment.

 

[Groupthink]

My intern supervisee is going through this right now. Her dissertation defense unexpectedly had to be pushed back due to faculty issues, pushing her graduation to December. She reached out to her postdoctoral program and they indicated that in their state, she can accrue hours once the dissertation is defended. The degree does not need to have been conferred for their state, from our understanding.

My recommendation is that you go ahead and contact your postdoctoral program and inform them of the situation, especially for the sake of transparency.

 

[jltpsyd]

Thank you all for your replies! Yes, if it were up to me I would defend in July and there would be no issue. Nothing in my life is keeping me from defending at any possible time. However, my chair will simply not be here and is unwilling to skype in. Fortunately, the state in which I will be applying for license only requires 1500 hrs (~37.5 weeks) so I should be able to get my hours in that scenario. Fortunately, my grad program also confers degrees in September, so it may not even be an issue. I am just really anxious that they may revoke my postdoc offer, though I've been told that's unlikely. I'm also worried about going without a paycheck, losing my benefits, my vacation will be forced to be paid out, travel from where I'm moving to my school is more expensive than it is from where I live now, etc. To me though, those are secondary problems that I can probably manage.

 

[syzergy]

I don't want to add to your anxiety but I have seen a postdoc offer revoked because the incoming postdoc didn't finish their dissertation in time. My state requires 2000 hours so that may be a related factor. It's probably worth talking to your postdoc program to let them know what's happening.

 

[FreudianSlippers]

I know people who have done postdocs without finishing their dissertation. One turned out fine (but the post-doc was extended) and the other was fired lol.

 

[123EW]

I've heard of starting a post doc without a degree being conferred. I don't know anyone who started a post doc without defending their dissertation. I would contact your post doc supervisor ASAP and let them know about the situation. If they are going to rescind the offer, they are going to do it now or in the future, and holding off will do nothing but make you look bad for giving them last minute notice of the delay.

My guess is the supervisor will be reasonable and delay your start of the post doc until you defend. Post docs are flexible in that way unlike internship.

 

[psychRA]

States will sometimes not count post-doc hours toward licensure until your degree has been conferred

If all of the requirements for the degree have been met (dissertation defended, revised, and accepted) and you're just waiting on the next graduation date for the degree to be conferred, you may have some wiggle room with your state. I'm licensed in CA, which is generally a state with a lot of licensure hoops to jump. The board just needed a letter from my graduate program verifying that I had completed the requirements for my degree and that the degree would be conferred on XXX date.

I, too, do not want to add to your anxiety, but I am also directly aware of a couple of people whose postdoc offers were revoked because the individual had not yet defended their dissertation at the start of postdoc. I would recommend being in touch with your program to explain the situation. They may be able to push back your start date accordingly.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I, too, do not want to add to your anxiety, but I am also directly aware of a couple of people whose postdoc offers were revoked because the individual had not yet defended their dissertation at the start of postdoc. I would recommend being in touch with your program to explain the situation. They may be able to push back your start date accordingly.

During my post-doc, one of the other fellows came in September 1 ("official" start date was August 1, but it was somewhat flexible--I started August 6, because I was going to APA that year, for example, and it would have meant moving cross-country and then flying back to the other side of the country after two days) because the original offeree wasn't able to defend their dissertation in time and thus, the post-doc had to pull the offer at the end of July and find someone else.

I also knew someone who took a clinical "post doc" at their internship site for a year or two after their internship but never actually defended during that time frame so none of the hours counted. I heard through the grapevine that the person never got licensed, largely due to that inertia.

 

[foreverbull]

From the other side, I knew someone who was not able to complete dissertation before the postdoc started. The site let the person work there, although the hours did not count, then the graduate stayed an extra year at the same site to complete the hours once the dissertation was completed. I think the postdoc contract was just renewed for another year.

Each site is different in how they handle this situation, but it isn’t unheard of for this to happen from time to time.