Practice Overhead %

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Jared Leger

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I want to survey the forum to inquire about your medical practice overhead percentage not including ancillary services, ie. PT, CPP, etc.

I'm interested to see the percentages for practices that offer full medical management, but are doing their procedures at a facility, not in-office.

JL

Members don't see this ad.
 
For the contract I am looking at, there will be some fixed overhead costs, some based on production...altogether, I was told it will end up being roughly41% of all professional fees (clinic, ASC, EMGs). I know it doesn't make much sense for the EMGs, but I was told that between 40 and 46% is the common quoted overhead percentage.

Does this offer of mine sound fair?
 
be careful about percentages... overhead costs tend to be relatively fixed (ie: rent doesn't double or triple from month to mont), whereas your productivity can change over time.... if your overhead is about 25,000/month and you are generating 50,000/month then yes your % would be about 50%... but if your overhead is about 25,000/month and you are capable of generating 150,000/month then your % is about 16%...

so if you are lazy then sign the contract, but ifyou know you are going to bust your butt and be very productive, those % can start hurting you...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Yeah...I know. They are going to make a formula that will incorporate the fixed overhead costs, and overhead costs that are based on production. For the other docs in the practice, they are paying roughly 30k/mo, based on this formula...which just so happens to works out to be about 40% of their professional fee total. My overhead will likely be different, especially when I just start as I won't be as busy.
 
I am asking this question to compare our practice overhead with others on this forum. Our overhead seems really high to me...it's in the 55-60% range.

Again we do full medical management, not just procedures. We are well established and pretty efficient. I don't feel we are overstaffed, however we do have to hire extra MA's to handle our tremendous phone call volume. We do the procedures at an ASC, so no extra income from in-office procedures.

I think MGMA benchmarked overhead for a pain practice around 40%.
 
This question is slightly off topic, but what percentage of the amount billed do you actually collect? I'm sure that payors vary, but if you generate $150,000/month, how much do you expect to collect in A/R? I've heard it can vary widely and it would seem that this is a bigger issue than overhead. What about the amount not collected? Can it be written off as lost income?
 
A/R averages out to be 52% with the group I'm negotiating with. Is this considered high or low?
 
This question is slightly off topic, but what percentage of the amount billed do you actually collect? I'm sure that payors vary, but if you generate $150,000/month, how much do you expect to collect in A/R? I've heard it can vary widely and it would seem that this is a bigger issue than overhead. What about the amount not collected? Can it be written off as lost income?

Contractual write-offs are not tax deductible - otherwise you could charge $1,000,000 per visit and write off your entire annual income after a few $25 visits.

The important thing about collection or overhead ratios is to understand how these simple ratios reflect complex situations and can cause misperceptions.

The indicator you want to watch is the collection rate after contractual write-offs. If you charge $100 for an office visit and get paid the contractual rate of $50 then your collection rate is 50%. If you charge $150 then your collection rate looks worse at 33%, but after contractual write-offs your collection rate is actually 100% in both cases.

If you should be getting $50/visit but are only getting $40 something is wrong. Most of the deficits in A/R are the deadbeats who don't make their co-payments. Occasionally you might have a carrier who is downcoding, slow, or otherwise breaching the contract but this has gotten less common since all of the successful RICO litigation and the passage of tighter insurance laws. Make sure that your billing software allows you to enter the fee schedule for each payor and that it pops up a message (or otherwise lets you know) if the payment entered is less than the fee schedule says. So if Medicare is supposed to pay you $100 for 62311 and your billing person enters a payment of $90 the program should raise a fuss about that.

Overhead optimization is very complicated. I have seen practice overheads at 40-60% because not all practice enhancements add the same amount of income-generating "efficiency" to the system. A practice with 60% overhead may be better than one with 50%. If you add something to the practice that has a lower profit margin than what your practice is currently doing then the overhead ratio will go up, but as long as your bottom line goes up too (without too much hassle or time commitment of course), who cares? What actually matters is whether the increased overhead translates to a bigger number on the bottom line.

For instance, suppose you are grossing $500K and have $200K overhead, which comes to 40%. You figure if you hired a RN to do the 5-minute med checks and pump refills you could see more new patients per week and increase your net income. So you hire a RN that costs you $50K in salary, taxes, and benefits, and that enables you to kick up collections by $80K per year. The nurse does not generate money as efficiently as you do - adding the RN returns $80K on a $50K layout, which means her overhead is 63% -way higher than your current overhead. Adding the nurse means your overhead is now up to 43%, but you are now making an extra $30K/year.

One important factor to bear in mind is that you must set your fees high enough to capture the highest payer. Many doctors don't set their fees high enough because it will make the collection rate look bad. Often this is the result of bad advice from whoever is doing the billing. They are afraid if you set the fees too high and then have a 20% collection rate you will be angry and change to someone else. However, since you now know that the true measure of billing efficiency is collection rate after contractual write-offs you can reassure your billing person that you will be looking only at that number.

Here's why I am beating this point to death: If you set your fees at 150% of Medicare to make your collection rate look cosmetically appealing but there is a payer that pays 160% of Medicare for a certain procedure you will be charging less than they are willing to pay. You will be leaving money on the table. That means setting your fees higher - probably 200% of Medicare - which will make your raw collection rate look terrible. However, your collection rate after contractual write-offs will be the same.
 
Thanks Gorback....that was some good advice.
 
I just went over contract talks with the ortho group, and they've explained the overhead formula in detail to me. My overhead will be roughly start at $25k/mo, and after I'm really busy, will get up to about $30k/mo....so the more I make, the better my overhead %age ends up becoming.
 
Ways to reduce telephone call volume:
1. Patient education handouts regarding procedures with info about NPO status, medications to stop, info about the procedures, complications, risks etc. ISIS members will soon have these available online and modifiable to fit their practice.
2. Website with all your policies, info about specific diagnoses, info about specific procedures
3. Educating you pain population there will be no early refills, no call in refills, no refills on nights or weekends regardless of the reason and non-emergency calls during this time will be assessed an administrative fee as this is not an included service in your practice
4. Add an additional fee to cover PA of medications, disability papers, etc. and only write medications not requiring PAs.
5. Use online precertification of procedures
6. EMR with a patient portal
7. Tight controls on the Medicaid population telephone calls. In the past, 70% of the telephone calls came from our 15% Medicaid population. We stopped accepting new Medicaid and the telephone calls fell precipitously.
 
"Speed, quality, price. Pick any two."

Nobody can afford to give out free advice over the phone any more, and nobody can afford an extra staff person just to sit on the phone all day calling in scripts. Heck, our pediatrician makes us come in for a visit and co-pay just for amoxicillin and I don't blame him one bit.

In general, if (1) you have to do some work and (2) the insurance company won't pay for it then (3) it doesn't get done unless (4) the patient pays for it or (5) you move it to a venue where the insurance does pay for it.

Disability forms => patient has to pay. The exception is SSDI, where the lovely federal government has mandated that you provide records for free. However, you do NOT have to provide a narrative summary or fill out any forms for the lawyer for free. If they threaten to subpoena you to testify in order to coerce a narrative summary out of you, they should be made to understand that your testimony may not be all they hope for and it could be a waste of time for all concerned.

Discussing issues over the phone with the patient or the patient's child/spouse/mailman => outpatient visit to discuss.

Prescriptions => patient has to come in for O.V. to get it.

Some practices just have a phone message after hours instructing patients to go to the ER if it's a medical emergency. I think this is dangerous because patients may not know that saddle anesthesia or inability to urinate after an LESI might be a medical emergency.

My answering service asks if it's a medical emergency when patients call. If yes, then they are told to hang up and call 911. If no, then they are asked if they have had a procedure done recently and are calling about a postop problem. If no, it waits until tomorrow. If yes, I return the call. You don't want to miss an epidural hematoma.

I've been toying with the idea of a 900 number. Not only will I talk as long as they want, I'll toss in a free psychic reading ("You are in absolutely no danger of getting a prescription refill any time tonight. Tomorrow looks pretty safe too.").
 
Members don't see this ad :)
900 numbers have other uses beyond psychic readings.....
I suppose there are ways we could all expand our practices.
For example:

"Welcome to Pain Management Associates and Sexchat where we can inject you with both needles and titillating conversation that will make you forget about your pain. Press 1 for complications related to a procedure Press 2 if you are just lonely and want to hear a recording of your doctors voice telling you every thing is going to be ok Press 3 for Biance-esque straight chat Press 4 for our narcotic policy Press 5 for Bubba cajun sex chat (interpreter provided for an extra charge) Press 6 for our locations Press 7 for Carlette transgender cross dressing straight chat (figure it out later) Press 8 to repeat these options or just wait on the line for your pain doctor/dom to answer all your questions and meet your every every need."
 
Gorback

What are you charging for these disability forms? (email me in private if you dont mind).

Also, do you need to be certified for this (ie. knowing the Occupational dictionary, IME, etc.).

I have been getting tons of disability forms, and do not know what to do with them.

Thanks
 
Nobody knows what to do with disability forms. This is a perfect example of the old adage that if something isn't worth doing at all, it isn't worth doing well. Don't take the ritual too seriously, is my advice.

One of my colleagues just has the patient fill out the forms and he signs them. He says none of them have ever been questioned.

I generally put forms in the "call and complain" file. That is, I don't even look at them until somebody calls and complains. You'd be amazed at how many problems just melt away with the "call and complain" methodology. I have a whole stack of charts on my desk that I can no longer remember what they are there for. After a while, I just return them to the filing shelves and no one seems to notice that I never did whatever I was supposed to do.

A more refined technique is to just refile the chart immediately and if someone calls and complains, pull the chart. Then put it in the C&C file. At least you made an effort.
 
Nobody knows what to do with disability forms. This is a perfect example of the old adage that if something isn't worth doing at all, it isn't worth doing well. Don't take the ritual too seriously, is my advice.

One of my colleagues just has the patient fill out the forms and he signs them. He says none of them have ever been questioned.

I generally put forms in the "call and complain" file. That is, I don't even look at them until somebody calls and complains. You'd be amazed at how many problems just melt away with the "call and complain" methodology. I have a whole stack of charts on my desk that I can no longer remember what they are there for. After a while, I just return them to the filing shelves and no one seems to notice that I never did whatever I was supposed to do.

A more refined technique is to just refile the chart immediately and if someone calls and complains, pull the chart. Then put it in the C&C file. At least you made an effort.



i just refuse to fill them out. i tell patients upfront as they are filling out paperwork. I gladly send their records to anyone that they request.
 
This is AWESOME!

I generally put forms in the "call and complain" file. That is, I don't even look at them until somebody calls and complains. You'd be amazed at how many problems just melt away with the "call and complain" methodology. I have a whole stack of charts on my desk that I can no longer remember what they are there for. After a while, I just return them to the filing shelves and no one seems to notice that I never did whatever I was supposed to do.

A more refined technique is to just refile the chart immediately and if someone calls and complains, pull the chart. Then put it in the C&C file. At least you made an effort.
 
In 99% (not 100%) of cases I tell them I don't think they are disabled (which is my honest assessment) and would be happy to write them a return to work form. This usually closes the issue immediately, or I get this "but I *worked* so hard to get disability!"
 
telephone calls:
1) ALL clinical questions are directed to the RN - if she can't answer it in 2 minutes, we automatically tell the patient that we need to schedule an office visit to more accurately assess the situation...
2) we use televox for all confirmation call reminders
3) we NEVER provide refills via phone - either we use surescripts via email w/ participating pharmacies or let the patients know that they need to request that their pharmacy fax us for refills... refills will only be authorized if the patient sees us at least once every 4 months for re-evaluation.

i cut overhead every way possible by automating every step of the way... the reality of overhead is that most of it goes to Payroll... and if you minimize your staff then you can cut your overhead... now the trick is to minimize your staff and still allow for vacations, sick calls, as well as provide a fun non-stressful work environment.

a lot of people think that if only they could have one more staff member everything would be easier... and that is flawed thinking for the most part... i have been in offices with 18 employees for 3 physicians and in offices with 8 employees for 3 physicians and the end-results were often the same...

i minimize staff by creating a work environment that is easy, non-tedious - and computer technology has made a huge change.

for example
1) all referrals either come in via email or via fax to an email account - so no scanning of incoming documents
2) i have set-up arrangements with labs and imaging centers so that I can place orders online and have results delivered online, as well as systems for me to view images (primarily MR) on my computer screen in the patients room - rarely even use the lightbox anymore.
3) during my encounter with the patient - i check the appropriate boxes on my software for ICD/CPT codes, and the bill automatically goes to the insurance company even before the patient leaves the building!!!!

i have weekly meetings with the staff and the goal for each person is to figure out what repetitive thing they do that drives them nuts or is boring, and we brainstorm ways to eliminate that process or at least automate it.... you'd be surprised how many great ideas your staff can come up with... it also makes them feel vested... and all of a sudden after the improvement is implemented they find they have extra time on their hands....

this process came about not long ago when everybody was clamoring for at least 2 more employees - and now none of the staff think we need those 2 employees

gorback has a good point... and it kind of re-iterates my earlier point: don't look at the %overhead... I'd much rather work with an 80% overhead if that means i can take home 1 million a year than a place with a 15% overhead for a take-home of 100k... everything is relative.

overhead is the way groups screw new guys who don't understand business... because they may tell you what the current fixed overhead costs are, but then as soon as you are hired they will discover all kinds of ways of milking money from you... one guy i know finally had a chance to look at the books after begging for 6 months, only to find out that in his "overhead" was $1,000/month going to some high-end elementary school. He asked the head partner of the group what that was, and was told that the group is "advertising/marketing" itself by supporting that school - what he later found out is that the "advertising/marketing" was basically the tuition for the head partners 2 kids at said high-end elementary school... another guy i know was in a similar predicament where he was convinced he made a killing one quarter and was sure of a huge bonus based on the negotiated contract, only to find out that there was a $40,000 build-out fee to re-design the layout of his office that was paid to some sub-contracting LLC. Turns out the main partners own that LLC. The build-out was actually done for 4k....

the question is how do you protect yourself as a young-one from predatory groups like that? i don't know the answer to that.... except that in those states where there is no non-compete clause (massachusetts and california come to mind), these aren't big issues because the partners want you as happy as possible so you don't open shop right across the street...
 
Lots of good advice above. I like the idea of meeting with the staff to iron out wrinkles. I guess I have just gone along assuming if there are no complaints everything must be ok. I'm going to start doing those meetings.

When my staff has approached me to add more people (I have 5 - manager, receptionist, scheduler, biller, RN) I always ask them how it's going to make me more money. When I first started out I had 2 employees. Each increment in staffing is initally painful because the cost of the new hire hits before the benefits do.

I guess the only area where I really part from Tenesma is that if someone wants a refill they have to come in for an O.V. Why should we pull the chart, review the med history, write the prescription, sign it, and call them back - all for free?

There are clinical reasons as well: how do you know that the bottle wasn't stolen and someone else is calling for the refill? How do you know that the drug-seeking slacker son living in the basement isn't calling it in? I want to put that script in the hands of the person who its intended for. I also want the local pharmacies to be suspicious when something is called in by me because they know I raraely do that.

I would not agree to anything that charges me for overhead unless I also had the right to audit it. Trust but verify. If they accuse you of not trusting them just say it has nothing to do with trust, you're just following standard and proper business practices.

This is not just for new employees. I know one group where the managing partner had the partnership paying for his golf membership and vacations.

Follow the money.

BTW, I am the AAPM meeting in New Orleans. Had a very nice dinner at Arnaud's with Algos. He looks just like you'd picture him: about 6'5" with a voice like James Earl Jones. And he can put his pants on both legs at the same time, although he rarely needs to because his entourage takes care of that. Scott Fishman and Martin Grabois were pushing each other out of the way just to stand next to him. And oh my God, the pain groupies were just all over him. As he walked through the exhibition hall the reps were throwing their room keys at him, and many of them were women.
 
gorback...

slight misunderstanding
1) all narcotic refills require an office visit - in fact, depending on the acuity of the problem i see them every 2-4 weeks. at least until i can hand them back to the PCP once stabilized

2) all other refills are done electronically (takes about 25 seconds for RN to do it) as long as patient sees me at least once every 4 months... ie: zanaflex, neurontin.

3) i rarely have to do refills because the scheduler has been trained to remind the patients to request refills on their visits - in which case again RN spends 25 seconds online to automate that...
 
BTW, I am the AAPM meeting in New Orleans. Had a very nice dinner at Arnaud's with Algos. He looks just like you'd picture him: about 6'5" with a voice like James Earl Jones. And he can put his pants on both legs at the same time, although he rarely needs to because his entourage takes care of that. Scott Fishman and Martin Grabois were pushing each other out of the way just to stand next to him. And oh my God, the pain groupies were just all over him. As he walked through the exhibition hall the reps were throwing their room keys at him, and many of them were women.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Lots of good advice above.

BTW, I am the AAPM meeting in New Orleans. Had a very nice dinner at Arnaud's with Algos. He looks just like you'd picture him: about 6'5" with a voice like James Earl Jones. And he can put his pants on both legs at the same time, although he rarely needs to because his entourage takes care of that. Scott Fishman and Martin Grabois were pushing each other out of the way just to stand next to him. And oh my God, the pain groupies were just all over him. As he walked through the exhibition hall the reps were throwing their room keys at him, and many of them were women.

....and you were priviledged....no seriously....great info here. You guys make my practice better and make the patients better. So....ISIS or ASIPP or both? Im still small time compared to you guys....no disposable income.

T
 
Actually the best thing about Algosdoc is Mrs. Algosdoc.
 
Top