Pre-med philosophical dilemma

[Deleted member 737595]

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This is about service EC's specifically, including serving the homeless, teaching, Africa trip (you know what I'm talking about), fund raising, blood donation drives, soup kitchen, Peace Corp, MOTHER THERESA, you get the idea...

There is the well-accepted theory of authentic volunteer to cookie cutter volunteer/service person. The idea is that, the goal is to present yourself to medical schools as an authentic volunteer through a formula: start early, commit and serve those less fortunate for 100 + total undergraduate hours minimum in order to seem like you're NOT doing it for medical school.

How many matriculants to US medical schools ACTUALLY and TRULY commit to service activities over several years SOLELY out of an interest in service for altruism and out of the goodness of their hearts? How can ADCOM leaders, who are in no way stupid or naive about pre-medicine extra curriculars, be led to believe that by doing something with committment for several years and hundreds of hours the applicant has done it completely without even THINKING of how it might one day appear in the medical school application.

My philosophy on this, is that the ORIGINAL REASON for embarking on a service project extracurricular is PRIMARILY TO DEMONSTRATE ALTRUISTIC COMPETENCY to medical schools. In other words, students in general would not partake in or commit such amount of time to service if it weren't for medical, dental, et cetera school. HOWEVER, after beginning the project, the continuation in and passion throughout such endeavor becomes such that while it will be important for the application, now I the applicant have developed an understanding and appreciation for service.

In other words, my question is: is the key to demonstrate that you served voluntarily COMPLETELY out of the goodness of your heart and for altruism to the medical admissions people OR to demonstrate that, taking an experience that is expected from medical schools, you capitalized on the experience and actually learned from it and have grown your altruistic feelings and experience in empathy.

I say this because the sentiment I have seen is that TOP candidates are the ones who have not only committed many hundreds of hours of community service, but the ones who have done it completely out of passion and without regard to med school. Is this realistic?

Thoughts?

 

[LizzyM]

I believe that the though is, similar to research experience, that is you want medical students and physicians who are committed to X, you select those applicants who have been involved in X in the past. While past involvement is no guarantee of future participation, who is more likely to be involved in community service in the future, the applicant who has been doing it for years, or the applicant who has not done it at all?

 

[Anti-PD1]

I believe that the though is, similar to research experience, that is you want medical students and physicians who are committed to X, you select those applicants who have been involved in X in the past. While past involvement is no guarantee of future participation, who is more likely to be involved in community service in the future, the applicant who has been doing it for years, or the applicant who has not done it at all?

So it's kind of a defeatist approach? I totally accept the logic, I'd do the same if I were in your shoes. Unless we develop mind reading or implement personality/psychological testing for admissions, this is the best we can do.

In the interview, is the goal to determine what motivated an applicant to volunteer, or is the reasoning sort of understood? How well can interviewers determine intent and/or is that even a goal of the interview?

 

[Deleted member 737595]

I believe that the though is, similar to research experience, that is you want medical students and physicians who are committed to X, you select those applicants who have been involved in X in the past. While past involvement is no guarantee of future participation, who is more likely to be involved in community service in the future, the applicant who has been doing it for years, or the applicant who has not done it at all?

Right... but is it supposed the feelings for altruism and wanting to serve others comes innately OR is it developed through doing? Should it be innate or can it be developed, is it expected that aspiring doctors are born wanting to serve others or is it expected that aspiring doctors have tested the waters and confirmed that yes, they feel fulfilled serving others?

 

[Deleted member 737595]

So it's kind of a defeatist approach? I totally accept the logic, I'd do the same if I were in your shoes. Unless we develop mind reading or implement personality/psychological testing for admissions, this is the best we can do.

In the interview, is the goal to determine what motivated an applicant to volunteer, or is the reasoning sort of understood? How well can interviewers determine intent and/or is that even a goal of the interview?

THANK YOU, much better phrasing for my questions. Id like to know too

 

[LizzyM]

Right... but is it supposed the feelings for altruism and wanting to serve others comes innately OR is it developed through doing? Should it be innate or can it be developed, is it expected that aspiring doctors are born wanting to serve others or is it expected that aspiring doctors have tested the waters and confirmed that yes, they feel fulfilled serving others?

Now there's the philosophical question! Chicken and egg!

In some cases, somone sees a suffering person, feels empathy for their plight, and wants to help. You sometimes hear of little kids who see someone shivering in the cold and want to give their own blankie to help the person in need. That might be rare but there are some people who have that kind of empathy.

On the other hand, a desire to serve those in need can be developed with practice. Some faith-based and school-based programs for teens require volunteering as a requirement for graduation or for participation in the organization's other activities. Other schools and faith communities make opportunites available to youngsters but don't require participation. In both cases, many kids get a taste of community service and some find it fulfilling and then seek out other opportunities to be of service in their communities throughout their lives.

 

[Goro]

Right... but is it supposed the feelings for altruism and wanting to serve others comes innately OR is it developed through doing? Should it be innate or can it be developed, is it expected that aspiring doctors are born wanting to serve others or is it expected that aspiring doctors have tested the waters and confirmed that yes, they feel fulfilled serving others?

Look, we know tons of med school applicants are box checkers. They can fake it until they make it, but the best candidates are those who are truly passionate about what they did. This comes across in interviews. And we look for this because Medicine is a service profession

Sometimes people may come to understand themselves in their giving unto others, but my own belief is that altruism can't be taught.

Our BS detectors are pretty decent, but obviously not perfect.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Now there's the philosophical question! Chicken and egg!

In some cases, somone sees a suffering person, feels empathy for their plight, and wants to help. You sometimes hear of little kids who see someone shivering in the cold and want to give their own blankie to help the person in need. That might be rare but there are some people who have that kind of empathy.

On the other hand, a desire to serve those in need can be developed with practice. Some faith-based and school-based programs for teens require volunteering as a requirement for graduation or for participation in the organization's other activities. Other schools and faith communities make opportunites available to youngsters but don't require participation. In both cases, many kids get a taste of community service and some find it fulfilling and then seek out other opportunities to be of service in their communities throughout their lives.

For example, I have had very few opportunities to do community service in high school, maybe between 2 and 4 times a year. In fact, I had no serious volunteering as a high schooler. However, I have been someone who says that passion isn't found, it is cultivated. You can have a spark, say, the thought of becoming a doctor, but until you truly know what that means, you have NO idea what being passionate about being a doctor is. Same with service? The more you dedicate yourself to service, naturally the more passionate you will become about it, especially if you approach it with an open mind.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

For example, I have had very few opportunities to do community service in high school, maybe between 2 and 4 times a year. In fact, I had no serious volunteering as a high schooler. However, I have been someone who says that passion isn't found, it is cultivated. You can have a spark, say, the thought of becoming a doctor, but until you truly know what that means through shadowing, clinical experience et cetera, you have NO idea what being passionate about being a doctor is. Same with service? The more you dedicate yourself to service, naturally the more passionate you will become about it, especially if you approach it with an open mind.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Practically speaking a nice middle ground seems something like this to me:

You know that generally extracurricular involvement is important in life. People who aren’t pre-meds volunteer. Think dads coaching soccer practice, church members doing bake sales, people who care about nature go plant trees in a park, etc. They do it because it’s important to them.

I think one of the key things admissions people think (just a guess), is that the applicants recognition of the value of an extracurricular activity is important. It doesn’t just show altruism, it shows you have passions outside medicine, are well rounded, and understand “volunteering” is very helpful in living a balanced life. Truly having an EC you’re passionate about shows that you have found such pleasure in something that others would call work that you do it for free.

This shows most clearly in long term, time intensive commitments even if they’re not the most altruistic possible. For example I had a friend who started an animal rescue network in college. She wasn’t changing the world (or getting any meaningful medical experience), but she cared about animals and enjoyed what she did. On the interview trail it came up over and over, and was a huge part of her *very successful* app.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Practically speaking a nice middle ground seems something like this to me:

You know that generally extracurricular involvement is important in life. People who aren’t pre-meds volunteer. Think dads coaching soccer practice, church members doing bake sales, people who care about nature go plant trees in a park, etc. They do it because it’s important to them.

I think one of the key things admissions people think (just a guess), is that the applicants recognition of the value of an extracurricular activity is important. It doesn’t just show altruism, it shows you have passions outside medicine, are well rounded, and understand “volunteering” is very helpful in living a balanced life. Truly having an EC you’re passionate about shows that you have found such pleasure in something that others would call work that you do it for free.

This shows most clearly in long term, time intensive commitments even if they’re not the most altruistic possible. For example I had a friend who started an animal rescue network in college. She wasn’t changing the world (or getting any meaningful medical experience), but she cared about animals and enjoyed what she did. On the interview trail it came up over and over, and was a huge part of her *very successful* app.

In terms of your friend, maybe the key is taking initiative to do things that benefit the local community as a genuine desire. This I can see.

 

[LizzyM]

For example, I have had very few opportunities to do community service in high school, maybe between 2 and 4 times a year. In fact, I had no serious volunteering as a high schooler. However, I have been someone who says that passion isn't found, it is cultivated. You can have a spark, say, the thought of becoming a doctor, but until you truly know what that means through shadowing, clinical experience et cetera, you have NO idea what being passionate about being a doctor is. Same with service? The more you dedicate yourself to service, naturally the more passionate you will become about it, especially if you approach it with an open mind.

I had it forced on me as a kid (singing songs and delivering gifts to scary old people in a nursing home--- terrifying... knitting afghan squares to make blankets-- boring) and I didn't have any opportunities that I can recall in HS. In college I had some experiences with pregnant teens and residents of a group home for the mentally disabled that were enjoyable. Staying overnight to help in a homeless shelter -- once was enough. Since then I've made sandwiches for the homeless which led to volunteering to hand out sandwiches and coffee at a "take out window" that served anyone who asked. That led to serving holiday meals at community halls (have you seen the movie, Brooklyn?-- it was like that but without beer), running food, clothing and school supply drives and delivering food baskets to the home-bound poor, which lead to other service activities in my immediate area. I've been doing this in one way or another for more than 30 years.

You might come to the activity later than HS but if you get started, you may find that the emotional reward of helping makes it worth the time it takes.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

I had it forced on me as a kid (singing songs and delivering gifts to scary old people in a nursing home--- terrifying... knitting afghan squares to make blankets-- boring) and I didn't have any opportunities that I can recall in HS. In college I had some experiences with pregnant teens and residents of a group home for the mentally disabled that were enjoyable. Staying overnight to help in a homeless shelter -- once was enough. Since then I've made sandwiches for the homeless which led to volunteering to hand out sandwiches and coffee at a "take out window" that served anyone who asked. That led to serving holiday meals at community halls (have you seen the movie, Brooklyn?-- it was like that but without beer), running food, clothing and school supply drives and delivering food baskets to the home-bound poor, which lead to other service activities in my immediate area. I've been doing this in one way or another for more than 30 years.

You might come to the activity later than HS but if you get started, you may find that the emotional reward of helping makes it worth the time it takes.

Wow this is great. I have seen Brooklyn, thats pretty cool.