Pre-Req coursework for Non-Traditional student

[AASDDS1]

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I am going back to a 4-year institution to take all science pre-reqs in order to apply to dental school for the Fall 2012 semester.

After talking to a pre-dent advisor at my school and reading up on the general requirements at most dental schools, I've made a mock plan of how the next few semesters will look. I have absoultely NO science background, just a bachelors in business and 2.5 years of finance work experience.

My plan looks like this:

Spring 2010: Biology I w/ lab, Chemistry I, Physics I w/ lab
Spring Mini Mester: Chemistry II
Summer 2010: Biology II w/ lab, Chemistry II lab, Microbiology
Fall 2010: Organic Chemistry I, Physics II w/ lab, Genetics
Spring 2011: Organic Chemistry II w/ lab, Biochemistry, Physiology

1-month period after spring 2011 (may-june): study for and take DAT
July 2011: begin application process

Additional info:
-Chemistry labs are offered as 1 2-hr course that are taken with/after the second sequence.
-I have already secured a part-time paid position as a dental assistant, but intend on shadowing w/ different specialties during breaks in between semesters.


I am wondering if:
-My plan is feasible - the combination of the coursework and rigor of the course load won't be unrealistic.
-It's realistic to study for and take the DAT during a 1-month span. Granted, I will just have finished all of my coursework so hopefully the material will be fresh and studying will be more like a "review".
-I have to take Physics I in Spring 2010 at a community college. This will be the only course taken at a CC. It's not offered at my college this semester for some reason and I can't afford to push it back. Will this be a problem?
-Will starting the app process in July 2011 be pushing it? Too late?
-I wanted to add a few 'extra' classes that might make me a more desirable candidate and also help during the first year of dental school (genetics/physiology). Keep those or remove from the load? Add any extras (cell bio, hist, anatomy)?

I try to gain as much insight from these boards as possible and so far they've been very helpful. Just wanted someone to look at the holistic plan for me to make sure I'm on the right path.
Thanks in advance.

 

[dmoney2010]

Everything on that should work except for physics I. Im not 100% sure about this but I dont think most schools allow any pre reqs to be completed at cc's. sorry. besides that the course load would be pretty intense but im sure you could do it. 1 month for the DAT should be fine, especially because you would have just completed all the classes needed for it, they would be fresh in your mind.

 

[floopy]

"Spring 2011: Organic Chemistry II w/ lab, Biochemistry, Physiology"


I highly recommend taking organic chemistry II *prior* to biochemistry and not concurrently.

Basic information on ketones, aldehydes, and amines is often not covered until the second term of organic chemistry, and you definitely need to know this stuff for biochemistry. Also, towards the end of organic chemistry II you'll likely learn about the chemistry of carbohydrates, nucleic acids, amino acids, and proteins. This will help you in biochem.

 

[davidius]

I did this myself with a degree in Economics and I also worked in the finance field for two years. Things that you may consider when heading back to school with the intention of doing everything at a 4 year:

-Financial aid is extremely limited for those that already have a degree. You will be requiring private loans if you do not have enough savings for 4 years. I found loans tough to get at a 4 (and a 2 year) because of the credit crunch and not having a program I was enrolled in. You will need to tell them you are going for a degree of some sort. As a side note, I always thought that you had to enroll as post-baccalaureate for a 2nd BA/BS but I never looked beyond that except for applying for post-bac.

-I did all of my pre-reqs at a community college and I got into NYU, just got an interview at UW and turned down interviews for Midwestern and Western. I was rejected at ASDOH, UNLV and Colorado almost immediately so some schools care and some do not.

Hope this helps.

 

[davidius]

Oh one other thing, 1 month might be pushing it on the DAT. I gave myself 2 throughout the summer and took a Kaplan course at the beginning. Granted this caused my DAT scores to post later than anticipated and my app completed late September which means, shoot for June but if you're late, you still have a shot.

Good luck.

 

[AASDDS1]

"Spring 2011: Organic Chemistry II w/ lab, Biochemistry, Physiology"


I highly recommend taking organic chemistry II *prior* to biochemistry and not concurrently.

Basic information on ketones, aldehydes, and amines is often not covered until the second term of organic chemistry, and you definitely need to know this stuff for biochemistry. Also, towards the end of organic chemistry II you'll likely learn about the chemistry of carbohydrates, nucleic acids, amino acids, and proteins. This will help you in biochem.

Okay - if I take biochem later, it would have to be during the summer in which I also begin my dental school applications.
-Will it be difficult to manage both applications and Biochemistry?
-Will it be OK to start applying without a grade in Biochem (even though the class will still be in progress)?

 

[AASDDS1]

I did this myself with a degree in Economics and I also worked in the finance field for two years. Things that you may consider when heading back to school with the intention of doing everything at a 4 year:

-Financial aid is extremely limited for those that already have a degree. You will be requiring private loans if you do not have enough savings for 4 years. I found loans tough to get at a 4 (and a 2 year) because of the credit crunch and not having a program I was enrolled in. You will need to tell them you are going for a degree of some sort. As a side note, I always thought that you had to enroll as post-baccalaureate for a 2nd BA/BS but I never looked beyond that except for applying for post-bac.

-I did all of my pre-reqs at a community college and I got into NYU, just got an interview at UW and turned down interviews for Midwestern and Western. I was rejected at ASDOH, UNLV and Colorado almost immediately so some schools care and some do not.

Hope this helps.

Are you talking about Financial aid for dental school or the pre-reqs? For the pre-reqs, I am luckily getting tuition reimbursement from the company I just left (got laid off). They're reimbursing me 100% for up to 2 years, so no problem there. I have not even started thinking about how I am going to pay for dental school, but I do have a few things in my advantage:
-Both a TX and Louisiana resident - some of the cheapest schools in the nation.
-Decent nest egg from savings during first few years at work.
-Family financial support.

 

[AASDDS1]

Oh one other thing, 1 month might be pushing it on the DAT. I gave myself 2 throughout the summer and took a Kaplan course at the beginning. Granted this caused my DAT scores to post later than anticipated and my app completed late September which means, shoot for June but if you're late, you still have a shot.

Good luck.

Okay - if I give myself 2 months, I would have DAT scores in by mid-July. That would push applications back to August at the earliest. That seems a bit late. Would it be too ambitious to start a DAT prep course DURING my spring semester, more likely towards the end (March-April). The courseload would most likely be: Organic Chemistry II w/ lab and Physiology. I am now thinking about moving the Biochemistry to the summer session.

 

[golf05]

I did a similar fast-track and only allowed myself 1.5 months to study. I took the DAT at the end of June and had my application complete on July 10th. It was sent out by AADSAS on the 24th of July. This is a fine timeline. You can even push it a month after and probably still be fine.

You seem to have a pretty heavy summer semester load. If those are the one month classes, I would suggest taking a maximum of 4 credits per month. Did you check out other institutions around your state that may offer Physics in the summer? Physics is not necessary for the DAT.

You may want to leave Micro, Physiology and/or Genetics for Fall 2011 or Spring 2012 while you are in your gap year. I agree with floopy in that biochem is much more understandable after OChem II. I would say even after a semester of Anat/Phys.

 

[doc toothache]

As with organic chem II and biochemistry, some if not all schools require finishing bio II before enrolling in micro or genetics.

 

[AASDDS1]

I did a similar fast-track and only allowed myself 1.5 months to study. I took the DAT at the end of June and had my application complete on July 10th. It was sent out by AADSAS on the 24th of July. This is a fine timeline. You can even push it a month after and probably still be fine.

You seem to have a pretty heavy summer semester load. If those are the one month classes, I would suggest taking a maximum of 4 credits per month. Did you check out other institutions around your state that may offer Physics in the summer? Physics is not necessary for the DAT.

You may want to leave Micro, Physiology and/or Genetics for Fall 2011 or Spring 2012 while you are in your gap year. I agree with floopy in that biochem is much more understandable after OChem II. I would say even after a semester of Anat/Phys.

This is something I considered - after I apply to schools in the summer 2011, I will have almost 9 months where I'll be doing nothing except potential interviews, but mostly waiting around after/during any decisions.
If i decide to take these classes - microbiology, physiology, and genetics - during this Fall 2011 or Spring 2012, can I list that on my dental school application in Summer 2011? Will this affect my chances of getting in or are these classes more for my benefit, since the material will be taught again in dental school.

 

[Marker008]

Dont worry about taking Biochem with Ochem II. I was a non-science background too, and came back to take science prerecs all at once like you are doing. I took Biochem and Organic II in the same semester and feel I did better in both because of the overlap of material. When we studied carbohydrates in O chem, we were studying them in Biochem too, and I found a similar trend during the whole semester. Worked really well for me.

Rather than "oh no, I remember this stuff sort of, but it is vague?" I was saying "oh yeah, we just went over this an hour ago in my last lecture"

 

[uncbestyet]

Are you sure you will be able to get in (sign-up for) all of those classes each semester?

When I took the pre-reqs through continuing studies at my state school, I was in the last group to signup for classes (even after freshmen). I was able to get all of them, but some semesters were harder than others to get into certain classes. (had to choose MWF classes instead of T,TH)

I studied for the DAT from the middle of May till middle of June (16th) and felt prepared, since I had just taken the pre-reqs... so that is doable.

 

[AASDDS1]

Everything on that should work except for physics I. Im not 100% sure about this but I dont think most schools allow any pre reqs to be completed at cc's. sorry. besides that the course load would be pretty intense but im sure you could do it. 1 month for the DAT should be fine, especially because you would have just completed all the classes needed for it, they would be fresh in your mind.

okay, i got worried about this so i called my top 4 school choices to see what their policies were. Out of the 48 required hours, 30 should be taken at a 4-year institution, so one class + lab (4 hrs) at a CC should not be an issue. One lady actually went as far as to say that physics was not that "important".

 

[Lethstang]

props to another non traditional student.

im also coming from the financial field with an MBA from a top school.

Im doing a heavy courseload starting in january, and Im actually applying this cycle. This is with zero science background.

From what Ive read around here, the study materials are so good that you can ace the dat just by studying in the midst of taking pre reqs.

please feel free to look up my posts (advanced search by poster) , ive prolly asked the questions you are about to in the coming weeks. PM me if you have any questions.

oh, heres my schedule

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=682021

 

[AASDDS1]

props to another non traditional student.

im also coming from the financial field with an MBA from a top school.

Im doing a heavy courseload starting in january, and Im actually applying this cycle. This is with zero science background.

From what Ive read around here, the study materials are so good that you can ace the dat just by studying in the midst of taking pre reqs.

please feel free to look up my posts (advanced search by poster) , ive prolly asked the questions you are about to in the coming weeks. PM me if you have any questions.

oh, heres my schedule

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=682021

wow, Lethstang, while my courseload will be tough, yours looks dangerously intense. i could not even fathom taking 4 science classes in one semester, much less both sequences of the same course at the sime time (i.e. chem 1 and 2). you sound ready and willing to face the challenge, though; and i commend you. good luck!

 

[AASDDS1]

okay guys, now i need some honest advice with this question:

should i save the optional (but beneficial) bio classes (genetics, micro, A/P) for my gap year? i filled them into my current schedule above for a few reasons:

- i would only be taking 2 courses otherwise, albeit tough ones. i will be fully committed to school (no real full-time job) so i'm actually afraid of TOO much free time. three courses seem like they will keep me on my toes, but not be overbearing. i'm used to working a 8-5 job and having almost all of those hours filled with real, material work - seem to get bored without this.

-extra hours to factor into my GPA before i submit my application

-better understanding for the mandatory courses- biochem and orgoII, and maybe the DAT.

please let me know if my thinking is correct or not here-- want to have some accurate foresight into how the next few semesters will look. thanks in advance.

 

[Lethstang]

wow, Lethstang, while my courseload will be tough, yours looks dangerously intense.

doing this for a few reasons

1) i have a low gpa ug and masters (3.1). For me to be competitive this cycle, I need to hit the science hard and get a 4.0 with a heavy schedule. I need to get the adcoms attention.

2) I have one science class during undergrad. I need as many science courses done before I apply so the dental school has something to judge.

3) without a science background, I need as much as possible before the DAT in august.

besides, i remember undergrad it was a joke, even with a full course load. its amazing how much you will accomplish in school if you treat it like your job, and not your extracurricular activity.

 

[AASDDS1]

doing this for a few reasons

1) i have a low gpa ug and masters (3.1). For me to be competitive this cycle, I need to hit the science hard and get a 4.0 with a heavy schedule. I need to get the adcoms attention.

2) I have one science class during undergrad. I need as many science courses done before I apply so the dental school has something to judge.

3) without a science background, I need as much as possible before the DAT in august.

besides, i remember undergrad it was a joke, even with a full course load. its amazing how much you will accomplish in school if you treat it like your job, and not your extracurricular activity.

actually, i am the exact same position you're in on all of the points you've listed above (except i never got a masters). my UG gpa is around a 3.1, but that's with NO science background/classes.

i will be taking 41 hours over 3 full semesters (spring 2010, fall 2010, spring 2011) and one summer (summer 2010).

this kind of worries me now--do you think my schedule looks rigorous enough to catch ADCOM's attention? of course, i don't want to go too fast and put my grades at jeopardy.

and i agree 100% about treating school like a job and not an EC.

 

[jmac44]

I don't know if this helps or not but this is what worked for me...

Fall 2004 - Gen Chem II, Bio I, English
Spring 2005 - O Chem I, Bio II, Physics II
Summer 2005 - O Chem II, Human Anatomy I, Kaplan Prep
DAT in August
Fall 2005 - Microbio, Genetics, BioChem I
Spring 2006 - BioChem II (dropped after my acceptance), Psych I
40-50 hours of shadowing mixed in here and there.
I took all the courses as a non-degree seeking student.

I applied to 8 schools, got 5 interviews, went to 3, turned down the other 2 after being accepted to my first choice.

I was previously a Mech Engineer so I did have prior scientific background. My previous GPA was 3.0 so I needed 4.0 in my prereq's. I studied for DAT while taking summer courses but I also took the Kaplan course. (22/22/22)

If I could do it over again I would have gotten my application together earlier. I didn't submit till the end of Sept. so no interviews till after Dec. 1. Otherwise I think it went pretty well. Except I should have finished biochem II. I dropped it before the deadline so I saved on tuition but in hindsight taking the course would have been beneficial.

Now I'm in my last semester and I graduate in May.

Good Luck with your process and like one of the previous posters said, if you treat going back like a job you will do fine....actually better than fine.

 

[AASDDS1]

I don't know if this helps or not but this is what worked for me...

Fall 2004 - Gen Chem II, Bio I, English
Spring 2005 - O Chem I, Bio II, Physics II
Summer 2005 - O Chem II, Human Anatomy I, Kaplan Prep
DAT in August
Fall 2005 - Microbio, Genetics, BioChem I
Spring 2006 - BioChem II (dropped after my acceptance), Psych I
40-50 hours of shadowing mixed in here and there.
I took all the courses as a non-degree seeking student.

I applied to 8 schools, got 5 interviews, went to 3, turned down the other 2 after being accepted to my first choice.

I was previously a Mech Engineer so I did have prior scientific background. My previous GPA was 3.0 so I needed 4.0 in my prereq's. I studied for DAT while taking summer courses but I also took the Kaplan course. (22/22/22)

If I could do it over again I would have gotten my application together earlier. I didn't submit till the end of Sept. so no interviews till after Dec. 1. Otherwise I think it went pretty well. Except I should have finished biochem II. I dropped it before the deadline so I saved on tuition but in hindsight taking the course would have been beneficial.

Now I'm in my last semester and I graduate in May.

Good Luck with your process and like one of the previous posters said, if you treat going back like a job you will do fine....actually better than fine.

sounds good - your schedule looks similar to mine except for that i won't need english and won't be starting with the second sequence of Chem right away. also not taking biochem II. the labs also take up a sizable portion of my hours/time during the summer session (1 3 hour class 4 days a week for 6 weeks). because of this, the only courses i'll take during the summer are: BioII, BioII lab (1hr), and Chem II lab(2hrs).

what schools did you get into/interview?
where do you go now?

 

[jmac44]

I didn't denote labs but all of the sciences I took included labs to give you an idea of how I did it.

I applied to Temple, Pitt, Penn, Harvard, OSU, UF, Maryland, and Nova
I got interviews to Maryland, UF, Nova, Pitt, and Temple
I got waitlisted at UF
I got accepted to Maryland and Nova.
I turned down interviews to Pitt and Temple as I had already been accepted to my top two choices.
I'm in my last year at Nova.

Good luck. It seems like a long road at first, but now it seems like the time has flown by.

 

[coralteeth]

I am wondering if:
-My plan is feasible - the combination of the coursework and rigor of the course load won't be unrealistic.
-It's realistic to study for and take the DAT during a 1-month span. Granted, I will just have finished all of my coursework so hopefully the material will be fresh and studying will be more like a "review".
-I have to take Physics I in Spring 2010 at a community college. This will be the only course taken at a CC. It's not offered at my college this semester for some reason and I can't afford to push it back. Will this be a problem?
-Will starting the app process in July 2011 be pushing it? Too late?
-I wanted to add a few 'extra' classes that might make me a more desirable candidate and also help during the first year of dental school (genetics/physiology). Keep those or remove from the load? Add any extras (cell bio, hist, anatomy)?

OP, we have the same background. i graduated with my BBA a few years ago from Texas and decided i wanted to be a dentist instead. so i took all of my science pre-reqs as a post-bacc, degree-seeking student at my local university and just finished my first semester of D1. b/c i was a degree-seeking student, i was considered a super senior and was able to register early for my classes. i totally recommend you do that even if you aren't really going to get that 2nd degree. like you, i didn't have a science background, so i started slow and then started to pack my schedule with heavy bio classes once i got the hang of it. business classes are nothing like science classes. you just gotta prepare yourself.

if i had to do it all over again, this is how i'd do it:

spring 10: bio1/lab + chem1/lab
summer 10: physics 1 and 2 + both labs at CC cuz physics isn't as impt for ds
fall 10: bio 2/lab, chem2/lab
spring 11: orgo 1/lab + biochem 1, start DAT prep, think about getting LORs from 2 science profs and ask them before semester is over so that they aren't swamped from other premeds and predents' LORs
summer 11: orgo 2/lab, apply in may and then take DAT in early august (submit your TMDSAS before you take the DAT)
fall 11: 3 upper level bios w/o labs
spring 12: 3 upper level bios w/o labs

even though the pre-reqs only ask you to take 2 UL bios, that doesn't mean you should only take 2. texas schools, esp baylor, likes as many UL bios as possible. and since your gpa is 3.1, which imho, isn't competitive, you have to take as many science classes as possible and make A's in them to be a competitive applicant. with a 3.1 x 120 hours, you'll need about 135 hours of A's to get that cgpa to 3.5, which is still below the average of Texas ds matriculants.

so far, i'd recommend taking these UL bios for D1 year and also DAT prep(from most advantgeous to still helpful): physiology, biochem 1 and 2, genetics, cell, histo, immuno, micro. take as many as you can handle. with that gpa, you've got to prove to the adcoms you can handle a heavy bio courseload. good luck!!

 

[AASDDS1]

OP, we have the same background. i graduated with my BBA a few years ago from Texas and decided i wanted to be a dentist instead. so i took all of my science pre-reqs as a post-bacc, degree-seeking student at my local university and just finished my first semester of D1. b/c i was a degree-seeking student, i was considered a super senior and was able to register early for my classes. i totally recommend you do that even if you aren't really going to get that 2nd degree. like you, i didn't have a science background, so i started slow and then started to pack my schedule with heavy bio classes once i got the hang of it. business classes are nothing like science classes. you just gotta prepare yourself.

if i had to do it all over again, this is how i'd do it:

spring 10: bio1/lab + chem1/lab
summer 10: physics 1 and 2 + both labs at CC cuz physics isn't as impt for ds
fall 10: bio 2/lab, chem2/lab
spring 11: orgo 1/lab + biochem 1, start DAT prep, think about getting LORs from 2 science profs and ask them before semester is over so that they aren't swamped from other premeds and predents' LORs
summer 11: orgo 2/lab, apply in may and then take DAT in early august (submit your TMDSAS before you take the DAT)
fall 11: 3 upper level bios w/o labs
spring 12: 3 upper level bios w/o labs

even though the pre-reqs only ask you to take 2 UL bios, that doesn't mean you should only take 2. texas schools, esp baylor, likes as many UL bios as possible. and since your gpa is 3.1, which imho, isn't competitive, you have to take as many science classes as possible and make A's in them to be a competitive applicant. with a 3.1 x 120 hours, you'll need about 135 hours of A's to get that cgpa to 3.5, which is still below the average of Texas ds matriculants.

so far, i'd recommend taking these UL bios for D1 year and also DAT prep(from most advantgeous to still helpful): physiology, biochem 1 and 2, genetics, cell, histo, immuno, micro. take as many as you can handle. with that gpa, you've got to prove to the adcoms you can handle a heavy bio courseload. good luck!!

Coralteeth-thanks so much for the helpful response. what school did you go to in texas?

About taking more UL bio's (cell,biochem2, hist, etc) - if i take these in the fall 2011/spring 2012 after app is submitted, will they factor into my GPA/effect adcom's decision at all? it seems as though if one applies as early as possible (in may), interview invites start rolling in by the end of the fall, and after an interview the decision is pretty much made.

 

[golf05]

What about starting your first semester with only 2 classes, then adding a third class to your second semester schedule once you get in the groove. Those 100 level Chem and Phys classes are really challenging if you don't stay on top of understanding the material as you go.

 

[Lethstang]

OP,

while its great to be raising your gpa, just remember (and this is my opinion after getting into a top business school with a 3.1 gpa, and from readin these forums, so take with a large grain of salt) to kill. the. dat. I raped the business school test and could have went anywhere with a 3.1 gpa. A poster above said 3.1 is not competitive and thats true, but if you check predents.com and sort the schools by average gpa, youll see that the bottom chunk of schools have a 3.3 or lower gpa, and this is combined with a sub 20 DAT. if you then look at the science gpas it tells more of the story. usually its equal to or lower than normal gpa. so get that 4.0 in your post bacc sciences and stand out that way. also, unrelated to this post but i see so many students on their predents applying to 3-4 schools.

dont be a *******.

youre already going in there with a weak gpa, apply to a ****load of schools. ive seen profiles where kids applied to 18 schools and got into one. imagine if they only applied to 17? so what if its what, 100 bucks an application. Hello creditcards. if you get in, every penny spent was worth it. is 4k in cc debt worth the price of dental school admission? Rhetorical question. and remember , schools like to see you do more than just school. volunteer, shadow, play an instrument, become captain of your softball team. harp on you being older, more mature, more driven. ask questions in class, go to profs office hours so their letters of rec are really written with gusto and enthusiasm.

again, this is all coming from a predent who is just now starting prereq classes and shadowing. 28 years old ivy league mba.

you only get one life. if you want to try something, just do it. later on youll regret the **** you didnt try. i would much rather try and fail than to say ten years from now "damn what if i would have done xyz".

if the process bankrupts you, youll live.

i speak with such gusto because we are in the same boat. everytime an untraditional applicant gets in, a kitten is born in pakistan.

Steve

 

[golf05]

OP,

i speak with such gusto because we are in the same boat. everytime an untraditional applicant gets in, a kitten is born in pakistan.

Steve

Meow. Creighton.