Precepting
- Thread starter nafcillin
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This. I had the most wonderful, engaging student last week. Patients loved him, my attending loved him. I wanted to keep him. They aren't all like that.
this, and a bad student will ruin your day just as quickly.
Find out about the schools and ask other local preceptors, you'll get an idea which type of student you'll see more of.
this, and a bad student will ruin your day just as quickly.
Find out about the schools and ask other local preceptors, you'll get an idea which type of student you'll see more of.
It's hit or miss. We have two schools in this state. Have had good students fom both, and stinkers fom both. It's the lazy/entitled students that I dislike the most.
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False. Every established school has 99% great students and new schools have 99% stinkers. Fact.
Ok. You're right.
I do have one student who is consistently awesome. I guess you could say he is my favorite...
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Right now? I hate it and wish I could get rid of it.
But maybe I'll like it again with the next one.
But maybe I'll like it again with the next one.
I have had some this year that made me feel that way.
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I have never felt more sure of myself as I enter p4 year after reading this comment lol
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I'm rather impressed the student hasn't cried.
I'm what you might call frustrated.
tough or oblivious. the jury is out on which one it is.
I'm what you might call frustrated.
tough or oblivious. the jury is out on which one it is.
My advice to students. Don't be lazy, don't be late, and don't be asking to leave early every day.
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I hate it when I'm on rotations with another student and they ask the preceptor if they can leave early. It's like, the preceptor might have been considering letting us leave early before they mentioned it, and after they ask its definitely a "hell no".
Usually, if I sit around looking bored, they usually either give me something interesting to do or they let me go home, lol.
The worst I've ever had was at one site where there was absolutely nothing to do, all they wanted us to do count pills when they got a prescription. Didn't want us entering orders or taking doctor calls. One time I pulled out my laptop to read notes and my preceptor flipped out. A few days later, same thing happening with nothing to do, so I pull out a newspaper, again my preceptor flips out. I asked "so you want us to just stand until you get a prescription to fill?:, and he just said "..yes". 🙄
Oh, Sparda. It's too early for me to be drinking like this.
But you don't want to know what would happen if you stood around looking bored while on rotation with me.
A newspaper? Seriously?
But you don't want to know what would happen if you stood around looking bored while on rotation with me.
A newspaper? Seriously?
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Sparda you're a strange one.
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Oh, Sparda. It's too early for me to be drinking like this.
But you don't want to know what would happen if you stood around looking bored while on rotation with me.
A newspaper? Seriously?
What's wrong with reading the newspaper in between filling prescriptions?
The fact that you have to ask that says it all, Sparda.
I do like precepting but it's a ton of work. I must like it because I keep doing it 😕
I do like precepting but it's a ton of work. I must like it because I keep doing it 😕
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At least read a journal or something...geez. There is always something to do in a pharmacy!
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Do tell, just in case I end up bored.But you don't want to know what would happen if you stood around looking bored while on rotation with me.
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Maybe if you're getting paid. Not sure if an IPPE student should be sweeping the floors, dusting the cabinets, etc.
D
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I have to agree with Sparda here. We are not paying $43 grand to sweep floors or organize shelves. I don't see a big deal with going online or reading if the store isn't busy, as long as you are ready to perform a task when it needs to be done. I also have issues with preceptors not liking the students sitting down during a retail rotation.
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I had 2 retail rotations. My IPPE was at a independent. Guy didn't let me do anything other than filling and had issues with me keeping myself occupied with a newspaper or my laptop.
My APPE was at CVS. Guy set me up at a computer station with a sweet leather chair, had my laptop out, and just made doctor calls all day as well as the occasional patient counsel/BP check.
Some of my classmates got a chance to do a retail management rotation at CVS. They worked in the Manhattan district and were pretty much the right hand man/woman of the DM. They said that they were sometimes sent into stores where they were told to call the pharmacy from their cell phone and count how long it took for the staff to pick up the phone and if they were busy at the time. Other times they were told to ask the pharmacists questions about OTCS. One time they found that the pharmacist made a seriously bad recommendation about St. John's Wort.
I don't disagree that students should not be spending much time doing tech work or busy work. That's an abuse of the system. But you need to take that up with the experiential coordinator. The only way these sites might ever get their crap together is to let the school know. But with all the students to have to place now, they might not care either, especially if the sites are not getting paid.
The real answer is that I'm going to assign projects. Drug info questions, extra presentations, Journal Clubs, SOAP notes, patient cases, etc. I have one clinic where downtime can be an issue. All we ask is that students stay busy (study for NAPLEX, work on projects, work on your CV, etc) and don't be obvious about it (stay off Facebook, don't complain, don't pull out a People magazine or play Words with Friends, etc).
Not our current group of students but the one before that was really, really bad about wanting to leave if it was slow. Even if there were patients scheduled later in the day. They didn't want to stick around. And they were super vocal about it. I noticed it, and the primary preceptor noticed it. So they all got extra topic discussions and had to participate in a Journal Club with the College's toughest faculty member. That helped a bit, but there was one student who was still an issue. He got a bunch of drug info questions, and never again complained about not having enough to do.
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I don't think we should be doing those mundane tasks either and we shouldn't just provide free tech labor. But, I wouldn't be pulling out a newspaper! I'd try to find something to do, even if it's things like A4D mentioned. The truth is, if it's slow, I like to talk to preceptors and learn things from them if they aren't too busy. On the slow days at my IPPE site, my preceptor taught my about anticoagulation and diabetes or gave me patient cases on home infusion. If preceptors have nothing for you to do than sweep, I'd say that's something to bring up to the coordinator as mentioned above.
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I would much rather have that happen. Being a preceptor means teaching your student something, and they're certainly not learning anything watching paint dry. Give me a topic to research, and then I've learned something.
And we wonder why we didn't get any residency interviews?
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Why don't you be proactive and look up patients or articles on your own?
I don't disagree that there should be significant teaching taking place... however...
This. Preceptors have responsibilities OTHER than dealing with the students. I can't teach 8 hours/day. Students should be able to find appropriate ways to occupy themselves. I prefer they do this by working independently on activities that contribute to patient care, augment the learning experience or at least, are relevant to their education.
Seriously. Again, I don't want to say that it's ok to use a student as free labor, but if you can't figure out something to do, that's your problem. Most preceptors get paid very little if anything and still are expected to do their regular work on top of precepting. Did you hear an interesting patient question about RX or OTCs? See a drug or combo go out that is new to you? LOOK IT UP. Learn something.
If you expect to be babysat every minute of the day on a rotation, residency is NOT for you.
If you expect to be babysat every minute of the day on a rotation, residency is NOT for you.
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The guy didn't want me touching the computer, and he certainly didn't want me on my laptop (where I could look up articles).
Now on rotations where I was given full computer access, and I had nothing to do at the time, I went on the computer and browsed articles and whatnot on there until there was something that needed to be done.
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Having a preceptor tell you something valuable to research is completely different than browsing Dipiro. Is it something that has impact on practice, or am I just burning up the clock with this reading? There are lots of things that I "don't know", and could "learn" but I'm not going to read all about third line therapy for abdominal migraines just because I opened a book to that page.
I'm not asking for a babysitter, but some guidance about how to spend my time would help. Ask a few questions at the beginning of the day, if it's something the student doesn't seem to have a good grasp of, have them work on that. If there is currently an interesting patient, or if you had one last month, have them spend the day reading about the disease or writing them up as a soap. Especially if this is not just a "general" rotation, but something focused (endocrine, anti coag, transplant) there have to be some caveats that general pharmacy school knowledge wouldn't cover.
The best students are those that are self directed learners. They hear about something on rounds, look it up, report to me what they find, and ask questions/discuss without having to prompt them....
If you have a patient with CAP...go read the guidelines, if you see a non FDA approved indication for a drug...go investigate the literature to support it, if you are on a retail rotation...go out to the OTC aisle and talk to patients or familiarize yourself with the ingredients of the branded products, if you are on an inpatient medicine rotation...go counsel patients on warfarin or other meds they may be discharged on....
There is plenty to do...most of them seem pretty obvious to me. If you need help, ask, but if you don't talk to me, I will assume you are busy working on projects...not just staring at the clock. I always appreciate the students who take initiative..."Oh I see Mr. Jones is being discharge on levaquin...can I go talk to him about it?"
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Is there any prescribed structure to how and what you guys choose to teach students or is it pretty much entirely up to the preceptor?
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In all of the cases you mentioned, there is still an initial stimulus to get the research going. I don't think you could be bored with an inpatient rotation, seems to be lots of stuff going on, even if your particular floor isn't busy, guaranteed another unit is. Could even go pull charts to review if I was bored there. I was more concerned with an Am Care rotation when there are no patients, retail when there is nothing in the queue, things like that, no spark to get you going.
Pretty much up to the preceptor. What you teach depends on what kinds of patients you have at the time. Schools do have grading rubrics but that is more about what sorts of things students should be doing (literature review, patient counseling, presentations, etc) not the content.