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Preliminary Rankings?

Discussion in 'PM&R' started by undercover, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    Anyone feel like discussing their prelim ranks? I know it's early in the game for most, but never hurts to procrastinate from real work. :)

    1. RIC/Mayo/Kessler
    2. Upen
    3. Hopkins
    4. Schwab (sp?)
    5. Baylor/UT Alliance
    6. UTSW


    Still to interview at: UT San Antonio, Baylor Dallas, UW

    I think Kessler has the best education, but really liked RIC and Mayo too.

    I know it's a copout with three places for the top spot, but that's why it's a prelim rank. :) But any and all advice regarding rankings is welcome. Also, how many places should one rank?
     
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  3. axm397

    axm397 SDN Moderator
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    I'm just curious - what kind of criteria did you use to get to this ranking? What are you looking for in a residency program? I was a bit surprised by your ranking order.
     
  4. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    Which ones were you surprised by? I realize ranking Baylor/UT that low is probably the biggest surprise, but that was more location based. Also, I just got a weird feeling from the PD there. Things just seemed amiss. Also, most of the residents I spoke with (and total count of about 10, so not all residents by any means) said they ranked RIC #1. Baylor/UT seems to give a great experience on the inpatient side, but seems to have a difficult time with outpatient aspects and injections. What are your thoughts?
     
  5. LurkerX

    LurkerX New Member

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    I was a bit of confused of who are the UT residents vs Baylor residents. When I asked that question, I sorta got the impression of 'what is the difference?' The residents told me that it didn't matter because they all work in the same facility. How about when they graduate from the program? Do they all receive the same certificate? I was too intimidated to carry on that question.

    I agree with Undercover about its lacking outpatient aspects and injections. I mainly would like to focus in MSK trained field and I was hoping to get more outpt experiences. The residents are nice, but it's a large program and I get the impression that residents are not as close compare to other smaller program. But again, it's just my personal preference, no offense to the program. I wish I could obtain more insight of the program. It's a well-known and prestigeous hospital and it's located mainly in a medical 'world'. What do you guys think?
     
  6. axm397

    axm397 SDN Moderator
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    If you don't get a response on the forum, try PM-ing some of the baylor SDNers.
     
  7. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    There is no difference in terms of educational experience, rotations, or opportunities (fellowship/practice) after residency. The only difference is that the employer (hence the person signing your paychecks) is different. However, UT and Baylor pay slightly differently and have slightly different benefit packages. There is no difference otherwise. I say this after having interviewed there and asking about them.

    As far as the program goes, I apologize if my previous remarks seem negative. Baylor/UT is a great program, has a great reputation, fellowship placement is equal to other top programs. I ranked it lower based on my own preference in geography. The MSK component is weaker than most, but it is improving. Sorry if my earlier comments seemed negative. I really liked the program at Baylor/UT, just not the city.
     
  8. whorubigman

    whorubigman Member
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  9. Gauss

    Gauss Damnit Jim!
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    stanford over UCLA
    interesting.....
     
  10. njdevil

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    I concur with the moderator...suprised.
     
  11. Finally M3

    Finally M3 Senior Member
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    Not if you're interested in pain/spine. Stanford's program is supposedly excellent. That and I would rather live in NoCal than SoCal....if I could afford either place. :laugh:
     
  12. veenut

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    quick question...is kessler affilliated with umdnj, or is it separate?
     
  13. MM9

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    The program always referred to as "Kessler" is actually the UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School program. A good portion of your time is spent at the various Kessler hospitals but you also rotate through 2 VA hospitals, University Hospital in Newark, and a children's rehab hospital.

    UMDNJ (University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey) is an umbrella institution that includes 3 medical schools. New Jersey Medical school in Newark, Robert Wood Johnson in New Brunswick are the 2 allopathic schools and UMDNJ-SOM is the osteopathic school in Stratford. From a student/resident perspective these schools are completely separate entities.

    I see you are a pre-med. If you have any questions about the UMDNJ schools, in general or from a PM&R perspective, feel free to PM me.
     
  14. windycitygeezer

    windycitygeezer New Member

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    I did a month elective at Stanford as a resident and their MSK/injection experience is pretty solid. Friends of friends have told me that UCLA lacks guidance
     
  15. whorubigman

    whorubigman Member
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  16. tempperson

    tempperson Member
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    From my interviews, I don't think that's true. I thought UCLA had great outpatient msk exposure. Most residents didn't even want the UCLA pain fellowship, and founds jobs straight out of residency in MSK type work. You get to rotate through the pain clinic, and residents can push 20-40 epidurals at that time. However, elective time is short at UCLA (1 month only).
     
  17. DigableCat

    DigableCat Senior Member
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    The pain clinic is a rotational experience, and usually entails being in the VA pain clinic, no fluoro injection experience. All residents get this experience, multiple times throughout the 3 years. Most residents get their fluoro time when they rotate with one of the physiatrists(David Fish) who is part of UCLA Ortho Dept. And that experience, from my understanding, you get when you use your elective time.
     
  18. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    How about we get back to the original question in the post? :)


    I'm having a hard time with ranking.

    Here's an updated thought process:

    Mayo/UW
    RIC
    Baylor/UT Alliance
    UPenn

    Any thoughts?
     
  19. whorubigman

    whorubigman Member
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  20. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    The city aspect of Mayo is the downside. Is it a place a lot of people try to go? Is the city the only reason people don't like it? Is it as competitive a place as the other big four (UW, RIC, Kessler, Baylor)? Thanks!
     
  21. tempperson

    tempperson Member
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    Honestly, Mayo's program seemed awesome during interview but the location leaves a bit to be desired. The PD herself said that they usually go to 25 or so on their rank list for a class of 8. I think that makes it less competitive than other big 4, although the training there is outstanding. Kessler may be another exception, because the atmosphere of the program seemed stifling not just to me but to many others I spoke with on the interview trail.

    FYI, Rochester is a city of 80,000 people with only 1 dance club and a hand full of bars. Most of the residents did not seem to enjoy very active social lives and you cannot get the big city life there. Some said you can go to the twin cities, but its 1.5 hours away and you'd have to rent a hotel room. Who wants to rent a hotel room just to have a night out? The location is best suited to those who are married/committed or enjoy doing things other than clubs/bars/performing arts for fun.
     
  22. rehab_sports_dr

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    > Kessler may be another exception, because the atmosphere of the program seemed stifling not just to me but to many others I spoke with on the interview trail.

    I'm at Kessler, and I am surprised to hear this feedback. What do people perceive as stifling?

    I've had 3 great years and have made many friends who I anticipate will be lifelong. I think my colleagues and I have been very happy with our experiences, and I was under the impression that the many medical students who rotate with us have enjoyed the experience.

    Empirically, the atmosphere does not create any difficulty with our match list- it is very rare for us to go far into our rank list, and I don't think we've ever gone more than 20 deep to fill a class of 8-10 residents.

    The area is fun. Traffic can be tedious, but there is lots to do for both single people and people with families.

    I can't neccesarilly advocate our program over any of the other great programs (because places like RIC, Mayo, UW, etc, are all great places as well), but I feel comfortable that the strong reputation of our program is well-warranted.
     
  23. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    What?? I thought that I told all the applicants that I ranked Mayo for the #1 for the weather and nightlife.
     
  24. ben roeth

    ben roeth Junior Member

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    UPMC
    UW (despite being home of the Seahawks)
    RIC
    JFK
    TJU
    Michigan

    Go Steelers!
     
  25. arik79

    arik79 Junior Member
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    this is a reply to the previous post. how can you think kessler is not in the top 6? The hospital is consistently ranked in the top 3 in the nation. they have Delisa and Kirshblum(huge in their fields) and they have amazing fellowship opportunities.
     
  26. ben roeth

    ben roeth Junior Member

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    is own personal top 6 for my list based on own criteria not an overall top 6. no baylor or mayo there either.

    kessler is v. good, but it's more about fit. not "stifling" per se as mentioned, but a bit pretentious was impression. didn't feel any positive interpersonal interactions with delisa that i felt with sliwa and masagli/robinson. felt less pretentiousness at ric+uwl.
    generally like smaller programs.
    don't wanno do fellowhsip, just wanna work.
    electives/selectives are a plus.
    like uni towns, but put jfk there b/c cucurulo (correct spelling?) is amazing.
    hope thatz enlightening.

    am gonna use the superbowl to decide my final rankorder.

    go steelers!
     
  27. Bronte

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    I felt the exact same way.. I'll probably be ranking Kessler #4 or #5. I hated my interview with delisa- I too thought it was a bit pretentious. Not once did he look at me and just asked my questions about numbers, ppl from my school applying, where I was a pplying, where in the interview trail was I, etc. It just didn't leave me with a good feeling. I am still interviewing but in the end Ithink I will be going with my gut feelings- not sure whether thats right or wrong.


     
  28. rehab_sports_dr

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    > I felt the exact same way.. I'll probably be ranking Kessler #4 or #5. I hated my interview with delisa- I too thought it was a bit pretentious. Not once did he look at me and just asked my questions about numbers, ppl from my school applying, where I was a pplying, where in the interview trail was I, etc. It just didn't leave me with a good feeling. I am still interviewing but in the end Ithink I will be going with my gut feelings- not sure whether thats right or wrong.


    I'm at Kessler, so I am biased, but I think that your interview with Delisa does not reflect the atmosphere of the program.

    For what it's worth, when I interviewed with Kessler as a medical student, I too left the interview with a dim view of the program- I thought it felt overly professional. But when I was working on my rank list, I decided to rank each program on different criteria (e.g., quality of didactics, livability of the area, salary, strength of the different clinical sites, etc). And Kessler was consistently very high on every list, so I decided to go back for a second look.

    I am so glad I did. While the interview day can be very formal (more so than other programs), that does NOT reflect the quality of our life here. I am very happy that I ended up ranking Kessler #1 and coming here.

    A few important points-
    1. You have very little day to day interaction with Delisa. he mostly does administrative work. The key person is Susan Garstang, the program director. She is one of the most accessible people I have ever met- I email her several times every week.
    Even more importantly, she has a unique position as program director. To my knowledge, she is the only program director in the country who receives half of her salary just to be program director, which means that she isn't doing her PD job in her free time on top of her full time clinical and research duties. This is a huge deal, because whenever a conflict of some sort arises, she can address it immediately.

    2. The residents are very happy here. My class is extraordinarilly tight with each other, and hang out all the time, vacation together, etc. I think it would be hard to match the level of camraderie.
    As examples of things we do together- vacations to the wine country and ski areas together, a fundraiser for Children's disabilities in California, racing together in local triathlons and marathons, regular poker games, a regular study group to prepare for the SAEs and boards, work on research projects together, room together at the conferences (and it's awesome going to conferences together), hang out in the city together, trying out different resteraunts, etc.

    3. The quality of training is terrific. We are not unique in this aspect, but the faculty here is excellent and very accessible. The author's of both main textbooks (Braddom and Delisa) are affiliated with our program, and Braddom in particular is very accessible (e.g., he gave me copies of his latest novel for my vacation, and we've been corresponding about it). Many of our faculty- Kirschblum, Gans, Bach, Stitik, Malanga, Mulford, etc. are "go to" people whenever a chapter has to be written about something. The Wedneday lectures are excellent, we have many, many lecturers from across the country come to speak to us regularly (e.g,, Jay Smith, Heidi Prather, Larry Chou, etc), we run what many consider the premier review course in the country.


    I almost made the mistake of down-ranking Kessler when I was a medical student because of what I perceived to be a stuffy interview. I am glad I gave Kessler a second chance- I am sure would have been fine elsewhere, but I don't have any regrets about my experiences here.
     
  29. arik79

    arik79 Junior Member
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    I agree with the previous reply concerning Kessler. You can't judge a program solely based on the interview. I went back for a second look at Kessler and had talks with Dr. Kirshblum and found them to be overly friendly. In my opinion Kessler should be extremely high on most people's lists, not just for the name, but for the atmosphere and clinical education. Finally, everyone I know who has done rotation months there loves it.
     
  30. PM&R gal

    PM&R gal Junior Member
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    Anyone know what the salary is at UCLA? I didn't get any info about salary or benefits there. I know that shouldn't be a huge factor, but So Cal IS expensive!
    Does anyone have any comments on how happy the residents are at Stanford vs UCLA??
     
  31. CasaElGato

    CasaElGato anti- vs. byronic hero
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    For UCLA residency in general

    http://www.medsch.ucla.edu/residencies/benefits/salaries.htm

    Resident Physician I 40,500
    Resident Physician II 41,820
    Resident Physician III 43,504
    Resident Physician IV 45,300
    Resident Physician V 48,300
    Resident Physician VI 49,900
    Resident Physician VII 51,600
    Resident Physician VIII 53,500
    Resident Physician IX 55,100

    SoCal is so expensive! But canned beans are cheap!

    Didn't go to my UCLA or Stanford interviews so no comments on happiness.
    Resident IX must suck.
     
  32. joseppi

    joseppi Member
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    my impression was that the residents who ranked there wanted to stay in california above all other factor (program quality, support, flexibilty etc..) so in that respect they were happy because theey were in california.
     
  33. CasaElGato

    CasaElGato anti- vs. byronic hero
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    Was wondering if anyone out there had their 2 cents on RIC and UW, how happy the residents were, atmosphere, etc. And all this talk of UW malignancy, inpatient heavy, etc. Fact or fiction?
     
  34. CasaElGato

    CasaElGato anti- vs. byronic hero
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    Very true.
    California people just can't bear to stay out of California. Who can say no to sun, surf, ski, and beautiful people. Seattle gets <70 sunny days a year.

    One of the UCI residents I met - she could have gone to any elite eastern or Chicago program but chose UCI. Where else can you surf, ski, hike, mountain bike, and eat real tasty Mexican food in one day?

    California is also very un-saturated with regard to PM&R compared to the East Coast. Just think, there are more programs in NYC than the entire Mountain and Pacific time zones.

    No wonder people are willing to pay more than a million dollars for a bungalow in Palo Alto which they tear down and build a Mc Mansion on a little 80 x 200 lot.

    So whatdaya think is the best California program? I would vote for Sacto.
     
  35. bxg205

    bxg205 New Member

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    From what I could tell, residents at both RIC and UW seemed quite happy, not too overworked, and got along with each other very well. Both are inpatient heavy relatively speaking (compared to Mayo, for example). As far as UW malignancy goes, they tried to say that the atmosphere was much more resident friendly than in the past, especially with some of the older faculty retiring/leaving and the bringing in of new faculty.

    Those are just my thoughts, let me know if you have any more questions.
     
  36. axm397

    axm397 SDN Moderator
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    Can't help with the UW compare and contrast but can tell you RIC is very resident friendly and we get along with each other well. We're happy. Our complaints are relatively minor (dust under the call room bed, lack of variety of free lunches, etc.) We seem in-patient heavy because almost all our inpatient months are concentrated in the PGY2 year (10 out of 12 months are inpatient), but it's nice because you get it out of the way. It's very front loaded. Call PGY2 year is about 8 calls every 6 months and 2 notewriting weekends every 6 months. The frequency goes down every year and there's NO call for PGY4s for the last 6 months. Hours vary from 7:30 - 8:00am (most attendings start rounding btwn 7:30 and 8:00am - no prerounding) to 4:00/4:30pm (if no admissions) to an occasional 7-8pm (if late admissions - I've probably left late twice in the past month). Attendings are all approachable and friendly. Dr. Sliwa is the best PD. Chicago is BEAUTIFUL. (Of course, this winter is the third warmest in Chicago history so I may not be getting the REAL picture...) If you have any questions about RIC, pm me.
     
  37. undercover

    undercover Junior Member
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    What places have the best track records for research?
     
  38. DistantMets

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    No one has really talked much about OSU lately on here. It is a place that has remained high on my list, despite interviewing there way back in early November. I'm considering a second look just because it seems like forever ago that I was there. I'd love to hear what people thought.

    When I was there, they were still debating how to work in the MSK rotation at the gorgeous new center at Riverside. I believe they were trying to decide whether to offer it as an elective or replace an existing slot (Sr. inpatient?). Just wondering if they mentioned anything to the people that interviewed more recently.

    Definitely in my top 3 (so far).
     
  39. glenn michaels

    glenn michaels Junior Member
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    Not a steelers fan but might be at UPMC with you Ben. Loved the program and the city. However I do hope they beat Seattle on Sunday.
     
  40. CasaElGato

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    Maybe Kessler because they have that KMRREC thing that is JDL's brainchild.

    http://www.kmrrec.org/

    But I think UofW has the most NIH funding for PM&R though more money is not = better, necessarily.

    Pitt is very researchy I think too.
     
  41. CasaElGato

    CasaElGato anti- vs. byronic hero
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    One concern I have about Kessler is that let's say you wanna do a pain fellowship in anes. Anes people have no idea about PM&R rankings - they probably just go by big names - like ooh Harvard or Stanford. This was brough up on a previous thread below that I've cut and pasted.

    Was wondering what anyone had to say about this...


    Quoted material below:

    Old 01-15-2006, 09:50 AM #19
    chauffeur
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    Default
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ligament
    You are absolutely correct sir!

    The anesthesia programs have NO CLUE about the "rankings" of the PM&R residency programs. The programs that invited me for an interview were impressed by my institution (University of Michigan) but really knew nothing about the residency itself.

    Fine with me! After all, this information is very esoteric even to those people going into PM&R residencies (hence the multiple residency "rank" threads on SDN).



    I heard this before and it makes complete sense. If you go to a nationally recognized hospital and are applying for non-PMnR based pain or sports med fellowships this should help.

    One can argue that when applying for an anesthesia pain fellowship as a Penn graduate, you would have a better chance then a UMDNJ candidate (in the non-PMnR field) - given that you both have published equally and are equal candidates.
     
  42. arik79

    arik79 Junior Member
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    in response to the previous reply. kessler has really strong fellowship opportunities that are in house. As for the pain fellowship in pmr or anesthesia i would choose kessler over upenn or nyu etc... Just b/c you are at a big name doesn't mean in house anesthesia will look at you better. Second, the backing of the kessler people will be strong even in anesthesia fields. third, the training at kessler, in my opinion, is stronger than most big university programs. therefore, pain fellowships, or for that matter any fellowships coming out of kessler should not be a problem. ironically a great pain fellowship program at upenn is going to a kessler graduate this year, not a upenn graduate(who never get that fellowship).


     
  43. axm397

    axm397 SDN Moderator
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    Also need to keep in mind when you are applying for jobs, you are still a Physiatrist. Even if you train at an Anesthesia based pain fellowship, you will not be able to compete with Anesthesiologists for jobs involving covering the OR, etc. So most likely, you will be applying for jobs with other Physiatrists which means your residency will be critically appraised by Physiatrists at that time. AND many of your job opportunities will come from alums from your residency program - meaning the better the residency, the better the job potential...
     
  44. CasaElGato

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    OK, maybe Penn wasn't the best example though I would def say the program is improving by leaps and bounds, but was thinking more along the lines of Washington, Michigan, Emory, Virginia or Northwestern as examples which are all university center based programs which I think are really good programs and well known in other fields besides physiatry and whose grads as far as I know have done well in fellowship quests and jobs.

    Not that I know much (I don't). But it seems like (from my trail experiences) quite a few folks had some funny feelings about special K.

    Anyway you wanna go to K, so why are you trying to convince others to put it up high there? Not that any of us are bad people or anything but that's not in one's own self interest.

    Now it's time to listen to special W's take on the world.
     
  45. PM&R gal

    PM&R gal Junior Member
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    So for somoene not from Cali looking at those programs, is the location worth it to give up other things? Can the residents there really get by comfortably on their salaries, which are not any higher than those in the rest of the country?
    Also, are all the programs there super competitive just because of location?
     
  46. CasaElGato

    CasaElGato anti- vs. byronic hero
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    Well that depends. How much is a clear, sunny day with temps in the 70s worth in January? For some it's priceless.

    I think it's tough being a resident in California because it's so expensive. But cost is not uniform everywhere. Sacramento is cheaper than Los Angeles, for example.

    Yes, the programs are super competitive because of the location. I would even go out on a limb and say UCLA or Stanford may be more competitive than Kessler or Mayo. California medical schools (UCLA UCSF etc) are among the best in the country and many of their students won't leave the Golden State. They get first dibs on residency spots in CA. Others left and want to come back. This all puts intense pressure on a state that has few residency programs relative to its population. And that's why they can pay residents peanuts and get away with it.

    Hope that helps.
     
  47. Finally M3

    Finally M3 Senior Member
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    So are Ramen noodles. However, think of all that Vitamin D you are getting from the sunshine? I think we've had 5 sunny days this winter! :laugh:

    The schools on the Coasts (east side! west side!) are much more competitive than us folk in the Midwest (excluding RIC, of course). No doubt about it. I would hazard to guess that Umich and Mayo are better PMR programs than all the West Coast programs besides UW, but both of us had an unmatched spot last year. Our post-interview surveys showed the #1 problem applicants had with our program was the location.
     
  48. rehab_sports_dr

    7+ Year Member

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    >One concern I have about Kessler is that let's say you wanna do a pain fellowship ...

    For what it is worth, here is the track record with pain/spine/sports fellowships from Kessler:

    The current senior class: of the 10 residents, 6 wanted some sort of pain/spine/sports fellowship. we all matched extremely well- 2 are going to RIC, 1 is going to Fuhrman, 1 is staying in-house with Stitik/Foye at UMDNJ, 1 is going to Cano in Pottstown, 1 is going to California. 2 others are doing Kessler SCI and TBI fellowships.

    This is typical for us- we always match at very good fellowships- last year people went to Slipman, Beth Israel, etc. We've never had difficulty matching at the very best fellowship programs.
     
  49. mehul_25

    mehul_25 Dude!!!
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    There is no doubt that Kessler grads receive exceptional training. They also do very well with fellowship placement, consistently "matching" into top-notch positions. During my fellowship interviews this year many people commented on the excellence of Kessler grads. One caveat remains and that is Kessler does well with Physiatry-based fellowships, whether they are "pain", interventional, TBI, SCI or MSK. If you want a anesthesiology pain fellowship name recognition can be an issue. Nationally, it is likely that even Penn or other big name medicine (but not necessarily PM&R) programs get more recognition. Especially if your institution has a powerhouse anethesia program you tend to somewhat get lumped into that group. As great as Kessler is, not many people outside of rehab know what it is, even with UMDNJ in front of it.

    This is consistent with my experience as well as that of some of the other interviewees this year. Of course being at Kessler does not preclude one from getting into a anesthesia pain fellowship. Maybe the previous poster can comment on Kessler grads who have gone into anesthesia fellowships.
     
  50. mehul_25

    mehul_25 Dude!!!
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    There is no doubt that Kessler grads receive exceptional training. They also do very well with fellowship placement, consistently "matching" into top-notch positions. During my fellowship interviews this year many people commented on the excellence of Kessler grads. One caveat remains and that is Kessler does well with Physiatry-based fellowships, whether they are "pain", interventional, TBI, SCI or MSK. If you want a anesthesiology pain fellowship name recognition can be an issue. Nationally, it is likely that even Penn or other big name medicine (but not necessarily PM&R) programs get more recognition. Especially if your institution has a powerhouse anethesia program you tend to somewhat get lumped into that group. As great as Kessler is, not many people outside of rehab know what it is, even with UMDNJ in front of it.

    This is consistent with my experience as well as that of some of the other interviewees this year. Of course being at Kessler does not preclude one from getting into a anesthesia pain fellowship. Maybe the previous poster can comment on Kessler grads who have gone into anesthesia fellowships.
     
  51. arik79

    arik79 Junior Member
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    Just wanted to respond to the previous reply. i should have stated before, I am a PGY1 currently and I am going to Kessler next year. So it is in my best interest that I defend the place that i am going to. Furthermore, I don't have a problem with anyone on these posts being accepted to Kessler, I am sure everyone is well qualified.
     

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