Preliminary vs. Joint advanced ranking question

[enofone]

I'm applying to neurology where many programs have what they call ''joint advanced matching'' or something to that effect. It's like a categorical option, where if you match into the advanced neuro program you are guaranteed a spot as a prelim depending on how you rank.

Some programs have something different where 1/2 the spots are combined and 1/2 are advanced. They do not guarantee you'll get a preliminary spot, though. It's different than a program being categorical because I think you have to rank it differently based on the fact that there are multiple NRMP numbers.

So, let's say I'm applying to California neurology program X and New York preliminary medicine program Y among others. We'll say that the California program has 1/2 advanced and 1/2 with all 4 years wrapped together.

Would I be able to rank it like this?
1) Cali - NY
2) Cali - Cali <--effectively the categorical option.
3) Cali - Prelim Program
4) Cali - Prelim Program

I ask this because I'm under the impression that you cannot do that, perhaps because number 2 might have NRMP numbers that are different and from 1 and you can only list an NRMP number one time.

Hopefully, this makes sense to someone.
Thanks!

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[NotAProgDirector]

For neuro matches, there are two types of programs:
Categorical program -- includes prelim year, single match (They have a "C" as the last letter of the NRMP code)
Advanced program -- doesn't include prelim, starts PGY-2, separate prelim match. (They have an "A" as the last letter of the NRMP code)

Some advanced programs may have some "linked" prelim spots, those would be more available to neuro candidates but still not "guaranteed" (unless there happened to be exactly as many linked neuro prelim spots as advanced spots, which would be a crazy thing to do -- they might as well make them categorical spots)

What you'll do is not clear, it depends on what you want.

First, you'll create a Main Rank List, and then you'll create supplemental lists for your prelim programs.

One option is this:
1. California Advanced
2. California Categorical
3. NY Prelim program.

And then, for match option #1, you'd have the following supplemental list:
1. NY prelim
2. Other prelim
3. Other prelim

This tries to put you in the advanced spot first. If that fails, then it tries to put you in the categorical spot. If that fails, then it tries to simply get you a prelim (note that if you'd rather have no match at all then just a plain prelim, you would not list the prelims at the bottom of your main match list).

If you match into the advanced spot, then it tries to put you in the NY prelim, and then the others. There is no supplemental list with the categorical match (since no prelim is needed).

Note that this rank list has a "problem" with it. If you match into the advanced spot and then don't get a prelim, it will NOT move down your main list to the categorical match. You will get the advanced match, and go into the scramble for a prelim.

Hence, the chance of a complete match is highest if you rank your categorical programs first, then the advanced with the prelims.

If it's not truly a categorical spot in Cali but instead are some linked prelims, then you simply rank the advanced spots on your main list and your prelim options on your supplemental lists.

Your main list would be:
1. Cali Advanced
2. Put prelims here if you'd rather have a prelim than nothing.

Supplemental list:
1. NY prelim
2. Cali Prelim
3. Other prelim

 

[pmpp]

For neuro matches, there are two types of programs:
Categorical program -- includes prelim year, single match (They have a "C" as the last letter of the NRMP code)
Advanced program -- doesn't include prelim, starts PGY-2, separate prelim match. (They have an "A" as the last letter of the NRMP code)

Some advanced programs may have some "linked" prelim spots, those would be more available to neuro candidates but still not "guaranteed" (unless there happened to be exactly as many linked neuro prelim spots as advanced spots, which would be a crazy thing to do -- they might as well make them categorical spots)

What you'll do is not clear, it depends on what you want.

First, you'll create a Main Rank List, and then you'll create supplemental lists for your prelim programs.

One option is this:
1. California Advanced
2. California Categorical
3. NY Prelim program.

And then, for match option #1, you'd have the following supplemental list:
1. NY prelim
2. Other prelim
3. Other prelim

This tries to put you in the advanced spot first. If that fails, then it tries to put you in the categorical spot. If that fails, then it tries to simply get you a prelim (note that if you'd rather have no match at all then just a plain prelim, you would not list the prelims at the bottom of your main match list).

If you match into the advanced spot, then it tries to put you in the NY prelim, and then the others. There is no supplemental list with the categorical match (since no prelim is needed).

Note that this rank list has a "problem" with it. If you match into the advanced spot and then don't get a prelim, it will NOT move down your main list to the categorical match. You will get the advanced match, and go into the scramble for a prelim.

Hence, the chance of a complete match is highest if you rank your categorical programs first, then the advanced with the prelims.

If it's not truly a categorical spot in Cali but instead are some linked prelims, then you simply rank the advanced spots on your main list and your prelim options on your supplemental lists.

Your main list would be:
1. Cali Advanced
2. Put prelims here if you'd rather have a prelim than nothing.

Supplemental list:
1. NY prelim
2. Cali Prelim
3. Other prelim

Hi aPD! An additional question....the NRMP website states that for joint A/P programs, applicants can "only" rank the joint prelim program on their supplemental list...does that mean NRMP would not allow me to rank other "safety" prelim spots under my #1 joint prelim spot on that supplemental list (effectively forcing me to SOAP for a prelim if i don't match the joint spot) ? example:

Main list:
1. X Joint Advanced program

Supplemental list for program X:
1. X joint prelim
2. Y safety prelim
3. Z safety prelim

Would NRMP not allow me to list Y and Z? (Aka the supplemental list will have only one spot that i'm allowed to fill)

 

[NotAProgDirector]

No, you're reading it backwards. You will only be able to rank the X prelim program on the supplemental list you assign to the X main list. On all other supplemental lists, prelim X won't be an option. You aren't forced to match at prelim X if you match in advanced X -- you could rank Prelim Y or Z above it, if you wanted to. If a program wants to force you to have a prelim if you match advanced, then they just make it a Categorical match.

So, you'll be able to rank just as you did above.

 

[pmpp]

Hi again @aProgDirector ! Another question about rank list that maybe you can answer.

I'm applying to two specialties, Neurology and Radiology, that have advanced programs. Prelims for Neurology can be IM, but prelims for Radiology can be IM or surgery. My question concerns the following scenario:
On match day, I find out I matched to a PGY-2 advanced position, but not to a preliminary position, forcing me to SOAP for a PGY-1 spot. My concern is that since I am applying for two different kinds of advanced specialties, how will I know what prelim is safe to SOAP for - IM will work for both neuro and rads, but surgery will only be accepted by rads. Will NRMP allow me only to SOAP for the kinds of programs that were on that specific supplemental list linked to the advanced program I matched into? To try to put it another way, if I match to an advanced neuro position, will I only be allowed to SOAP for IM positions and not surgery, because only IM programs were listed on that neuro supplemental list? And if I match to an advanced radiology position, only then will I be allowed to SOAP for both IM and surgery, since both kinds were on that advanced program's supplemental list? Basically, I am afraid that when SOAPing for prelim, I will SOAP into a surgery position, only to later find out that the advanced program I matched to was Neurology, and thus surgery will not even be accepted as my prelim year. Does NRMP allow you to SOAP for any kind of program listed anywhere on your rank list, be it the main list or supplemental, or is NRMP smarter and will ensure that my SOAP options are specific for that supplementary list linked to the program that I match to?

Hopefully this mess makes sense. Thanks in advance!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

It's a good question. I don't know. I expect the NRMP would consider telling you what field you've matched into, but I'm not certain.