Premed --> Med Student

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I will start as an MS1 this year, so I want to start off running to prepare for residency. That being said, I have a few questions regarding residency placement.

1) Can you please give the relative importance of certain factors for residency placement (grades, step 1 scores, LOR, research, etc)? It would be helpful if percentages were used. For example, for premed, I would say it's 25% GPA, 25% MCAT, 20% volunteering, 15% research, 5% school, 10% everything else. Can you please give a similar distribution for what is important for residency placement, and how important it is? I know for applying to medical school, volunteering is pretty important if not vital, however, I don't see too many medical students talking about the importance of volunteering --> residency placement, can it be really helpful for an app? Lets assume I am aiming for the toughest speciality (let's say derm?) so that I am fully prepared. More realistically, I'm pretty interested in
a) EM
b) Gen Surg
c) Trauma Surg
d) CT Surg
e) Ortho Surg
Also not sure if this matters, but I am willing to study anywhere in the US for my specialty of choice.

2) Talking about studying anywhere in the US, does each residency program have their own secondary, similar to applying to medical school, or is it just one primary application that you send off to all the residency programs you are interested in? If each school has their own separate app/essay questions, do they tend to be very time consuming each?

3) Would doing 4 years of research balance out not having any pubs? Also, are poster presentations even useful for residency app? Almost all med schools I see have a program where you spend MS1 doing research and presenting it at some conference.

4) For specialized surgery residency, I know there are some advanced placement programs that reduce the total #yrs by 1-2, but in general, does every surgery specialty require gen surg first, then fellowship afterwards? If so, could i do a gen surg --> orth surg fellow, or is ortho surg it's own resid?

5) I'm vaguely familiar with prelim surg, but could someone explain that to me in more detail? If i am correct, is that when you do the first few years of a gen surg residency at one university, then apply again for the corresponding year at another university? I feel like Im missing something because that just seems like a transfer to me?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
pchemdestr8 said:
I will start as an MS1 this year, so I want to start off running to prepare for residency. That being said, I have a few questions regarding residency placement.

1) Can you please give the relative importance of certain factors for residency placement (grades, step 1 scores, LOR, research, etc)? It would be helpful if percentages were used. For example, for premed, I would say it's 25% GPA, 25% MCAT, 20% volunteering, 15% research, 5% school, 10% everything else. Can you please give a similar distribution for what is important for residency placement, and how important it is? I know for applying to medical school, volunteering is pretty important if not vital, however, I don't see too many medical students talking about the importance of volunteering --> residency placement, can it be really helpful for an app? Lets assume I am aiming for the toughest speciality (let's say derm?) so that I am fully prepared. More realistically, I'm pretty interested in
a) EM
b) Gen Surg
c) Trauma Surg
d) CT Surg
e) Ortho Surg
Also not sure if this matters, but I am willing to study anywhere in the US for my specialty of choice.

2) Talking about studying anywhere in the US, does each residency program have their own secondary, similar to applying to medical school, or is it just one primary application that you send off to all the residency programs you are interested in? If each school has their own separate app/essay questions, do they tend to be very time consuming each?

3) Would doing 4 years of research balance out not having any pubs? Also, are poster presentations even useful for residency app? Almost all med schools I see have a program where you spend MS1 doing research and presenting it at some conference.

4) For specialized surgery residency, I know there are some advanced placement programs that reduce the total #yrs by 1-2, but in general, does every surgery specialty require gen surg first, then fellowship afterwards? If so, could i do a gen surg --> orth surg fellow, or is ortho surg it's own resid?

5) I'm vaguely familiar with prelim surg, but could someone explain that to me in more detail? If i am correct, is that when you do the first few years of a gen surg residency at one university, then apply again for the corresponding year at another university? I feel like Im missing something because that just seems like a transfer to me?
Click to expand...

One step at a time buddy. The only way to prepare for residency is to go to medical school, then everything will fall into place. You will learn all these details as you go.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
One step at a time buddy. The only way to prepare for residency is to go to medical school, then everything will fall into place. You will learn all these details as you go.
Click to expand...
Let me reiterate again: I was accepted into a US MD school and will be starting this fall.

I think it's good to have a plan which is why I asked the question.
 
theonlytycrane said:
OP, please don't become THAT guy/gal in your class...
Click to expand...
?????? I'm literally trying to figure out how to make myself as successful as possible to achieve my dream profession.... Its not any different from a highschooler asking a college student for advice...
 
pchemdestr8 said:
Let me reiterate again: I was accepted into a US MD school and will be starting this fall.

I think it's good to have a plan which is why I asked the question.
Click to expand...
Trust your school. They will get you where you want to be. No point in worrying about these now. Literally nothing we can tell you now will prepare you for residency.
 
Despite what Grey’s Anatomy tells you, there is no such thing as an ortho fellowship.

There are a few thoracic surgery residencies, but the more traditional route is gen surg then a fellowship. Trauma is also a fellowship.
 
ciestar said:
Despite what Grey’s Anatomy tells you, there is no such thing as an ortho fellowship.

There are a few thoracic surgery residencies, but the more traditional route is gen surg then a fellowship. Trauma is also a fellowship.
Click to expand...
I didn't get that from GA, I just literally have no clue and how these things work and am genuinely curious about it. So what you are saying is that ortho surg is a residency you apply for straight out of med school correct?

Also, in terms of getting into these specialties, how competitive is it? And how can you distinguish yourself when applying for these fellowships (at this point your done with USMLE right?)?
 
pchemdestr8 said:
I didn't get that from GA, I just literally have no clue and how these things work and am genuinely curious about it. So what you are saying is that ortho surg is a residency you apply for straight out of med school correct?

Also, in terms of getting into these specialties, how competitive is it? And how can you distinguish yourself when applying for these fellowships (at this point your done with USMLE right?)?
Click to expand...
Well, If you insist, you can start with these two documents:


 
pchemdestr8 said:
I didn't get that from GA, I just literally have no clue and how these things work and am genuinely curious about it. So what you are saying is that ortho surg is a residency you apply for straight out of med school correct?

Also, in terms of getting into these specialties, how competitive is it? And how can you distinguish yourself when applying for these fellowships (at this point your done with USMLE right?)?
Click to expand...

Yes, ortho is an actual residency. Five years.

The surgical residencies are competitive. Very.

Fellowships... ya, you’re long done with USMLE, including step 3. You apply for those toward the end of your residency.
 
pchemdestr8 said:
Just read it all, didn't really give too much info but thanks for the light read b4 bed
Click to expand...
Seriously though, everything you need to know about how to be competitive for residency programs, what factors are important for PDs, what score you need on your steps, and what specialties are more, moderate and less competitive are all in there. You're gonna revisit a version of those documents sometime before you apply to residency anyway. You might as well start now.
 
One thing you're gonna realize in those documents though is that it is not so black and write. There's a lot that comes into play when it comes to residency applications, and there's no way we can expand on everything here which is why I told you to trust your school. We can tell you to avoid red flags like failing your classes, failing boards, failing rotations, and we can tell you to add some research experiences to your resume (+/- presentations/pubs), and to do audition rotations if you want something competitive ect.... But these things are all things you should have known already coming in or will know through your med school advisers and/or upperclassmen as you go. Plus, each of those subjects can be expanded into their own SDN threads too. Medical education is not a one size fits all either what works for someone may not work for you and vice versa.
 
ciestar said:
Yes, ortho is an actual residency. Five years.

The surgical residencies are competitive. Very.

Fellowships... ya, you’re long done with USMLE, including step 3. You apply for those toward the end of your residency.
Click to expand...
Yikes, I can see why ortho is so competitive, much less time than other sugical residency where you do gen surg --> specialty

However, I thought gen surg in general is relatively not THAT competitive. Isnt it also DO friendly?

And as for fellowships, are they really that competitive? I would imagine most people do not want to spend extra time in school and instead want to practice. Is that not the case?
 
DrStephenStrange said:
Trust your school. They will get you where you want to be.
Click to expand...

I have to jump in here. Do not trust your school. They often times have no idea what they're doing when it comes to optimizing your education (specifically preclinical) and maximizing your chances in the match. Remain skeptical of things they say like "don't study from boards resources" or "don't start studying early for step 1". They're lying, lol. They aren't lying, but they can be extremely out of touch and dogmatic.

Don't let medical school get in the way of your education.

DrStephenStrange said:
No point in worrying about these now. Literally nothing we can tell you now will prepare you for residency.
Click to expand...

I also completely disagree with this. Knowing as much information as you can will put you in the best position to be able to gun from day 1. I don't think he's trying to be prepared for residency. I'm pretty sure he's just trying to figure out how to put himself in the best position when it comes to the match.
 
pchemdestr8 said:
Yikes, I can see why ortho is so competitive, much less time than other sugical residency where you do gen surg --> specialty
Click to expand...

That's not why ortho is competitive.

1. Number of spots (~1100 applying for ~750 spots)
2. Good outcomes
3. Sick tools (hammers, saws, etc)
4. Money

These are the major reasons for it's competitiveness.

pchemdestr8 said:
However, I thought gen surg in general is relatively not THAT competitive. Isnt it also DO friendly?
Click to expand...

You're right. I would say GS is one of the least discriminatory towards DOs. The surgical subspecialties (plastics, ortho, neurosurg, ENT, etc) all maintain a strong anti-DO bias. Former AOA (DO residencies) don't have this bias.

pchemdestr8 said:
And as for fellowships, are they really that competitive? I would imagine most people do not want to spend extra time in school and instead want to practice. Is that not the case?
Click to expand...

It depends on the fellowship. Again, the basis of competitiveness is the number of applicants relative to spots. For something like pediatric surgery, it's got about 24 spots for 100+ applicants, or something outrageous like that. There are plenty of people willing to spend an extended amount of time in order to train in the field that they desire.
 
slowthai said:
I have to jump in here. Do not trust your school. They often times have no idea what they're doing when it comes to optimizing your education (specifically preclinical) and maximizing your chances in the match. Remain skeptical of things they say like "don't study from boards resources" or "don't start studying early for step 1". They're lying, lol. They aren't lying, but they can be extremely out of touch and dogmatic.
Click to expand...

That sucks that your school does that, but it’s certainly not all schools.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
That sucks that your school does that, but it’s certainly not all schools.
Click to expand...

Of course. But it's also not an uncommon sentiment that's been expressed by students at other schools.
I'm just saying that one should be wary, and do the footwork on your end when it comes to your future. It's not the school or administration that has dreams of matching ENT, or emergency medicine in a competitive location. It's the individual, so the onus is on him or her to do everything possible to ensure success.
 
slowthai said:
Of course. But it's also not an uncommon sentiment that's been expressed at other schools.
I'm just saying that one should be wary, and do the footwork on your end when it comes to your future. It's not the school or administration that has dreams of matching ENT, or emergency medicine in a competitive location. It's the individual, so the onus is on him or her to do everything possible to ensure success.
Click to expand...

Yeah obviously you should do as much as you can to ensure your success because no one else cares as much as you do.
 
I think it's good to start thinking about these things early, BUT... the big thing you need to work on, starting now, is your attitude.
pchemdestr8 said:
?????? I'm literally trying to figure out how to make myself as successful as possible to achieve my dream profession.... Its not any different from a highschooler asking a college student for advice...
Click to expand...
pchemdestr8 said:
However, I thought gen surg in general is relatively not THAT competitive. Isnt it also DO friendly?
Click to expand...

If you're this defensive about a sarcastic comment and snobby about specialties, I can pretty much guarantee that you will either not match into these specialties or you will be fired. Maybe you're posturing here because this is an anonymous forum but if you're anything like this in real life you're in for a very rude awakening come time for clinical rotations.
 
pchemdestr8 said:
I will start as an MS1 this year, so I want to start off running to prepare for residency. That being said, I have a few questions regarding residency placement.

1) Can you please give the relative importance of certain factors for residency placement (grades, step 1 scores, LOR, research, etc)? It would be helpful if percentages were used. For example, for premed, I would say it's 25% GPA, 25% MCAT, 20% volunteering, 15% research, 5% school, 10% everything else. Can you please give a similar distribution for what is important for residency placement, and how important it is? I know for applying to medical school, volunteering is pretty important if not vital, however, I don't see too many medical students talking about the importance of volunteering --> residency placement, can it be really helpful for an app? Lets assume I am aiming for the toughest speciality (let's say derm?) so that I am fully prepared. More realistically, I'm pretty interested in
a) EM
b) Gen Surg
c) Trauma Surg
d) CT Surg
e) Ortho Surg
Also not sure if this matters, but I am willing to study anywhere in the US for my specialty of choice.

2) Talking about studying anywhere in the US, does each residency program have their own secondary, similar to applying to medical school, or is it just one primary application that you send off to all the residency programs you are interested in? If each school has their own separate app/essay questions, do they tend to be very time consuming each?

3) Would doing 4 years of research balance out not having any pubs? Also, are poster presentations even useful for residency app? Almost all med schools I see have a program where you spend MS1 doing research and presenting it at some conference.

4) For specialized surgery residency, I know there are some advanced placement programs that reduce the total #yrs by 1-2, but in general, does every surgery specialty require gen surg first, then fellowship afterwards? If so, could i do a gen surg --> orth surg fellow, or is ortho surg it's own resid?

5) I'm vaguely familiar with prelim surg, but could someone explain that to me in more detail? If i am correct, is that when you do the first few years of a gen surg residency at one university, then apply again for the corresponding year at another university? I feel like Im missing something because that just seems like a transfer to me?
Click to expand...
Briefly:

1) Step 1 score is the most important thing, period. So is honoring your surgical rotations and getting good letters. For some of those specialties, research matters a lot too. Everything else "matters," but really nobody cares whether you were volunteering in your free time vs. doing some sort of student interest group as long as you have *something* to talk about in the interview that isn't your academic performance. Ie, no amount of fluff is going to overcome a step 1 score that isn't competitive for your specialty.

2) No

3) No, doing 4 years of "research" without publication would be silly. Some of those residencies, particularly ortho and some of the competitive gen surg fellowships, care strongly about the number of publications and presentations. You took it very sarcastically when someone suggested that you look at Charting Outcomes when it comes to the number of publications for each specialty, but it's really all there. Don't ask us to do your work for you.

4) See above. Charting outcomes can tell you which surgical specialties are their own residency. EDIT: I suppose urology and ophthalmology actually have their own matching systems and aren't in charting outcomes.

5) You generally want to get a categorical surgical residency, which is 5 years for general surgery. Prelim surgery is generally for residencies which require a "preliminary year" of general surgery before you do something more specialized, like anesthesia. But if your endgame is gen surg you would never start with a prelim program unless you failed to match at a categorical program.

SDN has been around a long time, and you can probably answer a lot of your questions by using the search function. That sounds snarky, but finding answers to questions on your own is actually a skill you should acquire. There's no better way to annoy the hell out of the residents on your team than asking simple questions that show you made no effort to answer them on your own.
 
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FutureSurgical said:
Dude just get through passing your pre-clinical years. That's all you can do when you start. That, and shadowing. Join a club. Work with underserved populations.

Here's a report of ranking what's important for PD's in a medical students application. Albeit, it's from 2014, but I'd imagine much hasn't changed. At least, until the merger happens this year.

Click to expand...

Here's an updated one: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

It includes minimal info about the merger.
 
slowthai said:
I have to jump in here. Do not trust your school. They often times have no idea what they're doing when it comes to optimizing your education (specifically preclinical) and maximizing your chances in the match. Remain skeptical of things they say like "don't study from boards resources" or "don't start studying early for step 1". They're lying, lol. They aren't lying, but they can be extremely out of touch and dogmatic.

Don't let medical school get in the way of your education.



I also completely disagree with this. Knowing as much information as you can will put you in the best position to be able to gun from day 1. I don't think he's trying to be prepared for residency. I'm pretty sure he's just trying to figure out how to put himself in the best position when it comes to the match.
Click to expand...
OP said he got into a US MD school, and in my experience most MD schools have their **** together and don't blindly push their students into primary care. So this is why I told OP to trust the process.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
 
curbsideconsult said:
I think it's good to start thinking about these things early, BUT... the big thing you need to work on, starting now, is your attitude.



If you're this defensive about a sarcastic comment and snobby about specialties, I can pretty much guarantee that you will either not match into these specialties or you will be fired. Maybe you're posturing here because this is an anonymous forum but if you're anything like this in real life you're in for a very rude awakening come time for clinical rotations.
Click to expand...
Really? Just like how others guaranteed that I wouldn't get into a medical school with that same line of logic? This is an anonymous forum where social norms do not play as big of a role as they do in real like, hence why people who have built up feelings throughout the day tend to release them on anonymous forums. To think that how a person acts in person = how they act in online forums just doesn't make sense to me. Not that I care how you view me, but I can assure you, I do not have a problem with my attitude and interacting with collegues/coworkers/higher ups. But I appreciate your concern
 
Last edited by a moderator:
GoSpursGo said:
Briefly:

1) Step 1 score is the most important thing, period. So is honoring your surgical rotations and getting good letters. For some of those specialties, research matters a lot too. Everything else "matters," but really nobody cares whether you were volunteering in your free time vs. doing some sort of student interest group as long as you have *something* to talk about in the interview that isn't your academic performance. Ie, no amount of fluff is going to overcome a step 1 score that isn't competitive for your specialty.

2) No

3) No, doing 4 years of "research" without publication would be silly. Some of those residencies, particularly ortho and some of the competitive gen surg fellowships, care strongly about the number of publications and presentations. You took it very sarcastically when someone suggested that you look at Charting Outcomes when it comes to the number of publications for each specialty, but it's really all there. Don't ask us to do your work for you.

4) See above. Charting outcomes can tell you which surgical specialties are their own residency. EDIT: I suppose urology and ophthalmology actually have their own matching systems and aren't in charting outcomes.

5) You generally want to get a categorical surgical residency, which is 5 years for general surgery. Prelim surgery is generally for residencies which require a "preliminary year" of general surgery before you do something more specialized, like anesthesia. But if your endgame is gen surg you would never start with a prelim program unless you failed to match at a categorical program.

SDN has been around a long time, and you can probably answer a lot of your questions by using the search function. That sounds snarky, but finding answers to questions on your own is actually a skill you should acquire. There's no better way to annoy the hell out of the residents on your team than asking simple questions that show you made no effort to answer them on your own.
Click to expand...
Answers all my questions. Thank you. Closing thread as some people seem more concerned about my personality vs answering the question.
 
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