Prescription amphetamines or similar

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TooMuchResearch

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So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient.

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How is your sleep? Have you considered addressing that, and getting evaluated for depression? I know you don't want medical advice, but why not find out the actual issue before deciding on a med? All I'm saying is...there may be a better med for you, or an underlying health issue (depression, thyroid, sleep apnea).
 
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Lately I've been feeling more and more like my get up and go has gotten up and gone, and I'm not sure it's coming back. It's some combination of schedule, sleep, and whatever else.

So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient.

Also I'm obviously not looking for medical advice. More of a doctor to doctor, internet buddy to internet buddy level conversation.
There is probably some increased risk of heart complications (cardiomyopathy, arrhythmias) and stroke (maybe from some paroxysmal Afib, maybe some ICH).
 
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How is your sleep? Have you considered addressing that, and getting evaluated for depression? I know you don't want medical advice, but why not find out the actual issue before deciding on a med? All I'm saying is...there may be a better med for you, or an underlying health issue (depression, thyroid, sleep apnea).
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I mean, literally 6 minutes before this post, @TooMuchResearch posted this.

So I think we've identified a cause. And I'm pretty sure Adderall isn't indicated for "I have kids". That's what benzos are for.
 
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How is your sleep? Have you considered addressing that, and getting evaluated for depression? I know you don't want medical advice, but why not find out the actual issue before deciding on a med? All I'm saying is...there may be a better med for you, or an underlying health issue (depression, thyroid, sleep apnea).
I'm an emergency physician, so sleep is ****. I don't have any issues falling or staying asleep. My thyroid is frickin' amazing. What is there to depression evaluation other than a phq 9? Because I can tell you that when I'm tired and stressed, the number is high. And when I'm not, it's not. I want to be more alert and energized, but maybe I could kill all the birds with Straterra? I just want to inject some pep into my step. That's the primary thing bothering me. I've already looked into and done my best to optimize those other items.
 
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I mean, literally 6 minutes before this post, @TooMuchResearch posted this.

So I think we've identified a cause. And I'm pretty sure Adderall isn't indicated for "I have kids". That's what benzos are for.
More alert, not less. I only drink about 2 alcoholic drinks per month at this point because it trashes my sleep. I don't think benzos will help.
 
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There is probably some increased risk of heart complications (cardiomyopathy, arrhythmias) and stroke (maybe from some paroxysmal Afib, maybe some ICH).
Why do we think this though? Is it just because of increased HR and BP (which can be fixed through the marvels of polypharmacy)? Or something else?
 
I bring a Monster/Rockstar to every shift and probably consume 2 a month, possibly 4. They’re great. I have one off shift and don’t notice much, but it really helps me at work. I know there’s those who’ll celebrate my afib, but I’ve no other vices.
 
Lately I've been feeling more and more like my get up and go has gotten up and gone, and I'm not sure it's coming back. It's some combination of schedule, sleep, and whatever else.

So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient.

Also I'm obviously not looking for medical advice. More of a doctor to doctor, internet buddy to internet buddy level conversation.
Bro/sis do you even lift?!?

Kidding. I’m right there with you. If you do start something and it works for you please update this post.
 
I'm an emergency physician, so sleep is ****. I don't have any issues falling or staying asleep. My thyroid is frickin' amazing. What is there to depression evaluation other than a phq 9? Because I can tell you that when I'm tired and stressed, the number is high. And when I'm not, it's not. I want to be more alert and energized, but maybe I could kill all the birds with Straterra? I just want to inject some pep into my step. That's the primary thing bothering me. I've already looked into and done my best to optimize those other items.
Very generally speaking, many fields in medicine are prone to sleep issues due to the nature of shift work. There are medications approved to treat that. I have several nurses that I prescribe Provigil/Nuvigil to for when they work night shifts. Works pretty well.
 
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Why do we think this though? Is it just because of increased HR and BP (which can be fixed through the marvels of polypharmacy)? Or something else?
Extrapolating from methamphetamine, which is believed to be directly cardio toxic (in addition to secondary effects as you described). Not a lot of great data, but you did ask to speculate.

Also, anecdotally, it's not uncommon for young people to come in with ischemic and hemorragic strokes, who admit to methamphetamine use, but are not particularly tachycardic or hypertensive at the time. Presumable there is some drug induced paroxysmal afib going on. Not sure how you would mitigate that (other than obviously not using the drug).
 
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Lately I've been feeling more and more like my get up and go has gotten up and gone, and I'm not sure it's coming back. It's some combination of schedule, sleep, and whatever else.

So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient.

Also I'm obviously not looking for medical advice. More of a doctor to doctor, internet buddy to internet buddy level conversation.

If you want to see how you'd respond to provigil, you could try adrafinil which is a modafinil precursor and is sold by most nootropic online stores and is non prescription. I've never had a prescription to any of those types of meds so I can't comment otherwise. I do have tons of herbs, supplements and nootropics though but it's kind of a hobby. I think I'd get a fatigue work up first though. Get your hormones checked, etc..
 
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Fascinating question. Most of the evidence for stimulants that I am aware of have been tied to studies in specific populations with cancer-related fatigue, HIV/AIDS, neuro d/o's (i.e. stuff relevant to my practice)... their use tends to be driven by the advanced nature of their disease process and therefore the longterm data of potential effects 40 years later is limited/nil as they have all died long before.

Modafinil has some use in shift work sleep disorder... which is likely contributing given the chosen wording in your opening 2 sentences. That said it interacts with the CYP system, so you have consideration for potential interactions as your med list grows with age.

Beyond the aforementioned risk of arrhythmia, HTN, palpitations, anxiety/panic, irritability, chest pain, mania, insomnia... about 1/3 get nasty headache and maybe 1/5 some GI AE's. Pemoline carries risk of hepatotoxicity (if you are overseas).

I use methylphenidate most often for my patients. But my patients aren't young, healthy, functioning physicians. NNH for methylphenidate can be as low as 4 per some studies. It will come down to risk:benefit.

They can all be potentially addicting.

Bupropion might be an elegant consideration for empiric trial if you are looking for a potential energy boost, suspect having a simmering depression, and want lower risk of sexual side effect than SSRIs... added boost if you smoke and want to quit.

Keep us updated on your pending adventures so we can increase our n.
 
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Bro/sis do you even lift?!?

Kidding. I’m right there with you. If you do start something and it works for you please update this post.
Reasonable home garage gym and small private gym with a coach. Slowly upgrading equipment obtained in average to poor condition about a decade ago now. Structural integrity of this cage bought on Craigslist makes me nervous at times. Trying to figure out brand/model for ability to bolt into concrete, attachment options, etc. Upgraded adjustable dumbbells to 120 lbs. Trying to figure out space considerations for a dual cable device with high and low lat pulls as well. Even have an 18ish lb bar and tiny dumbbells for when the kids want to join.

But I don't have the energy or focus to finish the planning, and I've been missing my expected rep ranges. Hence the post.
 
If you want to see how you'd respond to provigil, you could try adrafinil which is a modafinil precursor and is sold by most nootropic online stores and is non prescription. I've never had a prescription to any of those types of meds so I can't comment otherwise. I do have tons of herbs, supplements and nootropics though but it's kind of a hobby. I think I'd get a fatigue work up first though. Get your hormones checked, etc..
Thanks for the tip. I'll look it up.

I do relatively extensive labs, everything has looked not necessarily ideal but overall pretty good. I'm due to recheck a few things this summer and will redo some hormone labs a bit earlier than planned to double check.

I'd be interested in learning about your supplement stack here or PM if you're willing to share.
 
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Fascinating question. Most of the evidence for stimulants that I am aware of have been tied to studies in specific populations with cancer-related fatigue, HIV/AIDS, neuro d/o's (i.e. stuff relevant to my practice)... their use tends to be driven by the advanced nature of their disease process and therefore the longterm data of potential effects 40 years later is limited/nil as they have all died long before.

Modafinil has some use in shift work sleep disorder... which is likely contributing given the chosen wording in your opening 2 sentences. That said it interacts with the CYP system, so you have consideration for potential interactions as your med list grows with age.

Beyond the aforementioned risk of arrhythmia, HTN, palpitations, anxiety/panic, irritability, chest pain, mania, insomnia... about 1/3 get nasty headache and maybe 1/5 some GI AE's. Pemoline carries risk of hepatotoxicity (if you are overseas).

I use methylphenidate most often for my patients. But my patients aren't young, healthy, functioning physicians. NNH for methylphenidate can be as low as 4 per some studies. It will come down to risk:benefit.

They can all be potentially addicting.

Bupropion might be an elegant consideration for empiric trial if you are looking for a potential energy boost, suspect having a simmering depression, and want lower risk of sexual side effect than SSRIs... added boost if you smoke and want to quit.

Keep us updated on your pending adventures so we can increase our n.
Bupropion might be a good thought here. Try to maim all the birds with a single stone, so to speak.
 
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Most of my patients have cocaine in their system and they seem just fine...
 
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Wait how is this thread allowed though isn’t this the definition of seeking medical advice? I mean I’m not personally against it but it seems unfair some threads get closed and others stay up
 
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Wait how is this thread allowed though isn’t this the definition of seeking medical advice? I mean I’m not personally against it but it seems unfair some threads get closed and others stay up

All I can say is that I enjoyed the academic exercise and hypothetical scenario. I think OP is a standardized patient in this thread?
 
Wait how is this thread allowed though isn’t this the definition of seeking medical advice? I mean I’m not personally against it but it seems unfair some threads get closed and others stay up
This is all hypothetical.
 
I *might* use Provigil post overnights to ease the transition back to day shifts. Occasionally I will use it for a night shift. Overall it seems to work pretty well and is better than being horribly fatigued. It seems to make me slightly irritable, however it is unclear if this is a correlation and Provigil isn't actually causing any irritability. Occasionally I've had headaches with it but overall feel that it makes the first day after a string of overnights more productive.

I'd prefer not to be working overnights, but I can't avoid nights right now (Fri/Sat/Sun nights) and Provigil (if I were using it), makes like much better than not using it.
 
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Wait how is this thread allowed though isn’t this the definition of seeking medical advice? I mean I’m not personally against it but it seems unfair some threads get closed and others stay up
Because the OP is a frequent contributor to the forum (i.e., he didn't just register 24 hours prior to starting the thread) and because he is asking in general. I do not believe he was soliciting medical advice in this case.
 
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What is there to depression evaluation other than a phq 9? Because I can tell you that when I'm tired and stressed, the number is high. And when I'm not, it's not.
You hit the nail on the head that the PHQ-9 winds up being more a measure general stress/distress than depression. I do not like the PHQ-9 in assessment, although it can be useful in monitoring symptom severity over time.

There is a lot to evaluating for depression, but it can be good to think about whether one or both of the core symptoms are present: depressed mood and/or diminished ability to feel pleasure (latter can manifest as diminished interest). Low energy is a manifestation of a depressive disorder if it is a product of one of those symptoms, rather than just because one isn't sleeping well. A good way to discriminate would be how someone feels after they have been allowed to sleep as much as they need without interruption and wake up naturally. If afterwards they have their normal "get up and go"-ness, then that would be a pretty reliable sign that the issue is inadequate sleep rather than mood.

An important question when considering mitigating the effects of sleep deprivation with stimulants is if it is being used in a short period of impaired sleep to bridge to period of adequate sleep (e.g. person doesn't sleep enough during the week but catches up on the weekend) or if it is going to be used chronically and persistently (e.g. "I will sleep when my children are in college and/or I quit EM"). The former can be reasonable, the latter is setting oneself up for problems (e.g. health complications, escalating doses, dependence). A good way to think about it would be 'does this sound reasonable if I replace the word "sleep" with "eat"?'

Bupropion is a mild stimulant that is not a controlled substance, and absent seizure or arrythmia diathesis is pretty safe to try; it also probably won't raise eyebrows if you self-prescribe or ask your physician for it, unlike other stimulants.
Modafinil/armodafinil are in theory more specific to promoting wakefulness, but are controlled - adrafinil is not federally regulated last I checked, but some states have caught on to its existence and started regulating it. Methylphenidate and amphetamine-type stimulants are more powerful but obviously more regulated.
Cocaine obviously has strong "get up and go" inducing effect, but besides the legal issues with it, the half-life is too short to keep you going throughout the day - however, if you imbibe alcohol before using cocaine, then it will be metabolized into the cocaethylene active metabolite pathway and will last much, much longer. Clinical pearl: Be aware that the effective duration of action of cocaine is dramatically prolonged when the patient has been using alcohol (I recall a recent patient that spent the better part of 2 days intoxicated with cocaine in the ED), and the ethylated metabolites of cocaine are typically not checked for on UDS.
 
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Because the OP is a frequent contributor to the forum (i.e., he didn't just register 24 hours prior to starting the thread) and because he is asking in general. I do not believe he was soliciting medical advice in this case.
Seems like he is asking about how to abuse stimulants as I doubt he recently manifested ADHD. And many people here have posted for a long time and get dinged for asking for medical advice. This is not a good look.
 
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I'd suggest that if one is looking to stimulants (other than coffee) to function on shift and in life, then it may be a good time to switch careers and/or significantly decrease the hours worked.
 
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Seems like he is asking about how to abuse stimulants as I doubt he recently manifested ADHD. And many people here have posted for a long time and get dinged for asking for medical advice. This is not a good look.

Seems like a quality of life question to me. Peak "physician wellness" inquiry. Trying to find ways to not burn out and end up failing patients and themselves simultaneously by not meeting the unnecessarily high, but ultimately unavoidable, bar we are all held to both day and night.

Don't be that person. Let people inquire about the dirty realities of this job - not just the socially acceptable parts - without looking down your nose at them for inquiring.
 
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Seems like a quality of life question to me. Peak "physician wellness" inquiry. Trying to find ways to not burn out and end up failing patients and themselves simultaneously by not meeting the unnecessarily high, but ultimately unavoidable, bar we are all held to both day and night.

Don't be that person. Let people inquire about the dirty realities of this job - not just the socially acceptable parts - without looking down your nose at them for inquiring.
Stimulants aren't for performance enhancement. They are DEA level two classified. Just like oxy

Qol question? "So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient."
 
I'd suggest that if one is looking to stimulants (other than coffee) to function on shift and in life, then it may be a good time to switch careers and/or significantly decrease the hours worked.

Coffee is a stimulant. Its all stimulants. Its all just a spectrum. GTFOutta here with this judgment. And I'm someone who can barely tolerate a diet coke without getting palpitations, so I thought I would be the last person to defend questions about stimulants. But seriously: legal, illegal, and grey zone are all definitions set up by the government and ultimately we need to reckon with our conscience and the feds if we slip up in the grey zone or get caught in the illegal zone - but knowledge to make educated decisions and weigh out the pros/cons in that grey zone is nothing to be shaming others about. Theyre all stimulants, just because one is available in fizzy bubbly version or steaming mud version doesnt make it less of a stimulant than ones in pills of all kinds. Don't judge if youre not going full puritanical (mormonism?) and judging all.
 
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Stimulants aren't for performance enhancement. They are DEA level two classified. Just like oxy

Qol question? "So my question for the group: Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase? Are the other potential effects i.e. potentially negative cardiac effects over time related to mild increases in BP and HR or are there other factors at play? It seems difficult to find long term safety data that is sufficient."

I feel the same way about opiates (and im a stingy prescriber, second most stingy in my group). Everything has a purpose and every strength has an indication. If you're judging someone needing opiates for pain but telling them to take 30 days of prn tylenol you are having an intellectual disconnect made easier by viewing yourself as morally superior. Analgesics are analgesics. Side effect and risk profiles vary and its our job to gauge them, but being DEA level 2 is just a reminder to make sure that the juice is worth the squeeze and to pause and think about the side effects (the EXACT thing he's inquiring about) not some indication that knowledge of the analgesic is somehow more dangerous or to be judged differently than the OTC stuff.
 
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I feel the same way about opiates (and im a stingy prescriber, second most stingy in my group). Everything has a purpose and every strength has an indication. If you're judging someone needing opiates for pain but telling them to take 30 days of prn tylenol you are having an intellectual disconnect made easier by viewing yourself as morally superior. Analgesics are analgesics. Side effect and risk profiles vary and its our job to gauge them, but being DEA level 2 is just a reminder to make sure that the juice is worth the squeeze and to pause and think about the side effects (the EXACT thing he's inquiring about) not some indication that knowledge of the analgesic is somehow more dangerous or to be judged differently than the OTC stuff.
I don't prescribe those either. And you agree op is asking for medical advice which is not allowed here
 
I don't prescribe those either. And you agree op is asking for medical advice which is not allowed here

No I believe he is asking about quality of life questions and how to cope with the difficulty of our field as time/life takes its toll on you. Particularly, he is asking a question extremely specific to our field and very few other fields. Stop being "that guy" (or gal, if you are one).

Or do be that person. I'm not the police of this all, I'm just baffled at this mindset. I'd expect it from a nephrologist or neurologist - but not here. (I joke, I joke... mostly).
 
No I believe he is asking about quality of life questions and how to cope with the difficulty of our field as time/life takes its toll on you. Particularly, he is asking a question extremely specific to our field and very few other fields. Stop being "that guy" (or gal, if you are one).

Or do be that person. I'm not the police of this all, I'm just baffled at this mindset. I'd expect it from a nephrologist or neurologist - but not here. (I joke, I joke... mostly).
He's specifically asking about stimulants and nothing else
 
I can delete the 1st and 3rd paragraph if you like...
As I said I don’t care at all I think we should be able to ask medical advice on here I just think it’s unfair how biased the moderators are that they’ll let some people keep up questions because they like that particular poster but others who ask the same type of question get stopped but life is not fair I guess so it’s all good just pointing out the hypocrisy
 
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As I said I don’t care at all I think we should be able to ask medical advice on here I just think it’s unfair how biased the moderators are that they’ll let some people keep up questions because they like that particular poster but others who ask the same type of question get stopped but life is not fair I guess so it’s all good just pointing out the hypocrisy
Outside of big TOS violations, area mods have a good bit of latitude in how they moderate their forums.
 
All this bickering would stop if you just went to 7/11 and bought an energy drink like I told you. Medically speaking, you’re critically low on taurine, guarana, ginseng and a bunch of other crap they throw in there. I know, I’m a doctor.
 
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“Does anyone know any major downsides to prescription stimulants other than minor BP increase?”

Yes, there are many major (potential) downsides to prescription stimulants. I won’t bore the readers of this thread by listing them.

Instead, I’ll say that when I started having thoughts like the OP, it was the beginning of the end of EM for me. I soon realized EM had pushed me near the brink and I had to get out before EM did irreparable harm to me.
 
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As I said I don’t care at all I think we should be able to ask medical advice on here I just think it’s unfair how biased the moderators are that they’ll let some people keep up questions because they like that particular poster but others who ask the same type of question get stopped but life is not fair I guess so it’s all good just pointing out the hypocrisy
Exactly 💯
 
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Fascinating question. Most of the evidence for stimulants that I am aware of have been tied to studies in specific populations with cancer-related fatigue, HIV/AIDS, neuro d/o's (i.e. stuff relevant to my practice)... their use tends to be driven by the advanced nature of their disease process and therefore the longterm data of potential effects 40 years later is limited/nil as they have all died long before.

Modafinil has some use in shift work sleep disorder... which is likely contributing given the chosen wording in your opening 2 sentences. That said it interacts with the CYP system, so you have consideration for potential interactions as your med list grows with age.

Beyond the aforementioned risk of arrhythmia, HTN, palpitations, anxiety/panic, irritability, chest pain, mania, insomnia... about 1/3 get nasty headache and maybe 1/5 some GI AE's. Pemoline carries risk of hepatotoxicity (if you are overseas).

I use methylphenidate most often for my patients. But my patients aren't young, healthy, functioning physicians. NNH for methylphenidate can be as low as 4 per some studies. It will come down to risk:benefit.

They can all be potentially addicting.

Bupropion might be an elegant consideration for empiric trial if you are looking for a potential energy boost, suspect having a simmering depression, and want lower risk of sexual side effect than SSRIs... added boost if you smoke and want to quit.

Keep us updated on your pending adventures so we can increase our n.
Or see a psychiatrist for an evaluation. Rather than asking on SDN which is directly against TOS.
 
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There is SDN legal who has power over the mods. And different levels of mods.
You're welcome to file a complaint if you disagree with the mods.

It is hereby considered off-topic and any subsequent posts about the issue will be moved to the off-topic forum. Please refocus any discussions to the topic. Thank you for your understanding.
 
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A couple things to keep in mind: Rx amphetamines are dosed around 40-60 mg daily. Rx appropriately used are taken orally so time to peak plasma is longer than smoking/IV/snorting, even more so because Rx is more commonly a long-acting formulation slowly releasing over the course of the day. People using meth or abusing Rx stimulants off the street are using more in the range of 200-600 mg per use, potentially multiple times per day, and parenteral administration means the peak serum concentration is much higher, likely increasing risk of strokes, cardiac damage, etc. I think it's hard to draw inferences between Rx and illicit use for these reasons. It's like someone drinking a single bud light little by little over 8-12 hours every day vs someone shot gunning a pint of vodka every day or multiple times per day. The latter is going to cause huge problems the former likely never will.
 
A couple things to keep in mind: Rx amphetamines are dosed around 40-60 mg daily. Rx appropriately used are taken orally so time to peak plasma is longer than smoking/IV/snorting, even more so because Rx is more commonly a long-acting formulation slowly releasing over the course of the day. People using meth or abusing Rx stimulants off the street are using more in the range of 200-600 mg per use, potentially multiple times per day, and parenteral administration means the peak serum concentration is much higher, likely increasing risk of strokes, cardiac damage, etc. I think it's hard to draw inferences between Rx and illicit use for these reasons. It's like someone drinking a single bud light little by little over 8-12 hours every day vs someone shot gunning a pint of vodka every day or multiple times per day. The latter is going to cause huge problems the former likely never will.
You can have psychosis and strokes etc on prescription amphetamines at recommended and within product insert doses.
 
You can have psychosis and strokes etc on prescription amphetamines at recommended and within product insert doses.

Can you back that up with any research outside case reports? Especially related to strokes
 
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Can you back that up with any research outside case reports? Especially related to strokes
I'll go with psychosis as a theoretical possibility. Let's say you've got some mild propensity towards psychosis, you combine this with therapeutically dosed amphetamines and sleep deprivation and… psychosis!
 
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