Previously math phobic nontrads?

[ofthebest]

---

Members do not see this ad.

This post is partly a repost from the Harvard post-bacc program thread, as far as the introductory stuff goes, but I'm getting no love over there, and what's more, I want to talk about math.

First, the intro. I am getting my (belated) undergrad degree at Harvard Extension school and am planning to do their Health Career Program as a part of my ALB (Harvard extension's version of a B.A.) degree. I won't actually start dipping my toes into the pre-reqs until next fall. This semester I'm taking the required expository writing class and cliche of cliches--a psych 101 class. I really need to beef up my math skills right before the prereqs so I'll be taking algebra and some other junk in the spring ('07).

I'm a bit of a freak--a 23 year old home-schooled humanities type who had 1 year at a miserable start-up college (now closed before ever attaining full accreditation) and then 3 years of running around working random jobs in several states. I moved to Cambridge last year for a part-time job at Harvard (and a boy).

I volunteer at Boston Healthcare for the Homeless, which I am hoping counts as some sort of "clinical" experience though it is mostly just taking vitals and putting cream and bandaids on feet. As I get further into the science morass I hope to find some small research position (hopefully still within Harvard so I can keep raking in the benefits)

Blah, blah, blah me. One of the things I am running into a lot (and something I'd like to hear if other people have encountered) is that now that I've discussed my med-school hope with friends I keep hearing over and over "but you were always terrible at math". It is true that my math needs help (it was just me and some textbooks and a notebook in my bedroom back in the high school years.) But I was capable of computational chemistry and other higher science as a little highschool intern at this place: www.shodor.org. But then, the computers did the math.

So, left to my own devices I floundered around at a pre-algebra level until I gave it up.

Is it so crazy to think that someone who has had her struggles over long division could ever be a doctor? I'm a whiz at logic and other mind-games. It's the arithmetic that slows me down. And I despite my previous math failures, I've tested out as at well above average intelligence. (I just wish someone had told me that when I was the dunce crying into her fractions.) I've ordered a bunch of remedial math books and intend to exploit Cambridge's overpopulation of tutors to the fullest extent.

My fear of math is what kept me out of the science I loved and away from any thoughts of medschool. I gave up those dreams and jumped headfirst into English and Drama 😕 *slaps 17-year-old self up the side of the head* Now I'm thinking maybe I can get over the phobia and head into medicine. But I'm still fairly freaked about the calculus (O uncharted waters!) and Physics (Oh my God!) in my near future.

Any one else out there who's struggled with the math but still thought they might make it to med school?

 

[NY Musicologist]

I'm right there with you...had some bad teachers in the beginning, missed out on a lot of basics, and deep-sixed myself into the humanities in high school because the math frustration was so overwhelming and I was too embarrassed (or something) to ask for help. Now that I've been away from it for ten years or so, the frustration has dissipated and I'm finding that it doesn't take THAT much work to master the basics and it can actually be fun (or at least not completely evil)...like you, I'm doing independent review books and will get a tutor when I get to calculus. When I'm confident of my math chops (and when I've finished my PhD, arrrgh!), then I'll go ahead with a legitimate postbacc...

I'm in Boston, despite my screenname...pm me if you wanna study together.

Best,
NYM

 

[spicedmanna]

I enjoyed the "epic" nature of your post and your story about mathematics; it reminds me of my own struggles. My life comes in epic dramas, too. I appreciate your diverse background and think it'll probably be an advantage in your pursuit to become a doctor. Your clinical experience sounds good, no need to worry about that.

It's fine to feel afraid about math by the way; it's unknown territory for you. I don't know anyone who isn't somewhat afraid of the unknown (take note, however, that Fritz Perls once said, "fear is just excitement without the breath"). Take a deep breath; relax. It's okay not be good at math if you want to become a medical doctor. The amount of math required is similar to the amount of vermouth required to make a good martini; just a tiny splash will do. On the other hand, if you want to become a physicist that's a different story.

I've never considered myself great at math, either. I performed poorly in geometry in high school and just managed to pass Calc I and II for scientists and engineers through the skin of teeth. The hardest part I think was becoming comfortable with the weirdly complex symbology and finding a way I could connect these abstract concepts to real life. I like to "feel" how things connect in a very kinesthetic way. And every now and then I still count with my fingers. But I don't think any of that would necessarily get in the way of the essence of being a doctor. I mean, as long as you can perform simple drug administration calculations per weight or per volume. Rather the ability to think critically and abstractly is far more important. In addition, the learned capacity to listen to what the patient is saying and to know what his or her body is telling you is absolutely paramount. Then, you can come up with a differential diagnosis, eliminate what's not possible to finally end up with the most probable diagnosis and treatment, if any. But even more so, I think most of it is developing a sacred trust with the patient. That seems like the foundation of clinical practice; at least in internal medicine. But then again, the medical field is moving more towards evidence-based algorithms, so who knows? Will creativity be a thing of the past? Hopefully not.

But getting into medical school does require some basic "higher-level" math, at or above the level of trigonometry. Very simply, you need to understand how to deal with scientific notation, do some very simple algebraic manipulations, be able to use the quadratic formula, logarithms, and know triangle geometry (including sine, cosine and tangent functions). Any basic college-level pre-calculus mathematics class will give you those skills. The rest, well, is optional. You may want to decide if it's worth completely moving through your fears (which I think is always worthwhile just for the personal gain alone) to go for full-blown calculus. Some medical schools like to see you take at least the first semester of regular calculus, and indeed require it; some require two semesters. But you might not wish to apply to those schools.

It just occurred to me that mathematics is a language and should be seen as such, at least at our level. It is a language that physics and general chemistry both use. It pays to be conversant at the fundamental levels. I was away from school for 10 years before restarting and I found that I had some trouble with physics initially. I simply couldn't calculate fast enough to finish the tests even with a calculator. I had similar issues in general chemistry, but they were less extreme since the level of math required was not as high. I basically sat myself down and did as many problems as I could. In fact, I'd say that was my basic philosophy. I manipulated the formulas forwards and backwards until I felt I could do them even comatose. I started having dreams about angular momentum formulations. Math, then, is like language, the more often you speak it and use it, the better you get at it. (After all the work I put into it, I got straight A's in all of my post-bacc classes). I know it sounds trite, but practice whenever you can; make it your friend and use as many learning modalities as you can (visual, audio, kinethetic, etc.). Teach to your friend, what you have learned.

It will certainly be challenging, but hopefully your passion to become a doctor is far greater than your fears. I can't imagine how many times I looked myself in the mirror and saw myself beat up, but then thought of what Rocky would do. Okay that's cheesy, but you get the point. You might as well ask yourself what is really underneath your fear of mathematics, and when it first began. What happened then that made you decide that you are terrible at math, or made you afraid of it, and what about that are you not facing? (That was then, this is now; you are the you of now, not then.) Are you willing for your experience to be one of ease, instead, although it is probably completely unthinkable to you right now (basically, I'd freeze up and my brain would get "cloudy" every time I was confronted with a physics problem I couldn't solve--no body movement and no breath--so I tried to slowly infuse movement and breath into it). I mean, it's just a story that you aren't good at math, after all, although it might seem very real right now. What if you could write a new story, then what new story would make up? What you imagine is only as real as you want it to be. Guess it comes down to the question, "are you willing to do what it takes to become a doctor?" If you follow a path with heart and commit to it, then it isn't necessary to know "how" you are going to do it. You just need to trust in your own ability to carry yourself through.

 

[Skaterbabe74]

I was definitely a math phobe from way back. I had been in all the extended learning programs in grade school so the potential was there, but we moved to a new district for jr. high and I got put into a lower math than I should have been. That was the beginning of my downfall. Not improving my skills for a year just ruined all progress I had made in the math dept up til that point. I missed the entrance into algebra by 1 point so a second year of mediocre math. High school came and I definitely couldn't just jump ahead so I did the standard math track - algebra, geometry, algrebra II/trig. I just about failed geometry (I passed but barely). By the time I was a jr I despised math, was scared to death of it, and just couldn't do it. So I quit trying. I took 5 years of science in hs tho without too many problems (had to drop down to regular physics cuz AP was calc-based; just about failed chemistry because the book was awful and the teacher worse but i got the concepts and did good on the midterm and final when I got tutored by a biochem friend).

I went away to college and still had math issues. I was still terrified of it and always psyched myself out and never finished the classes. I took 4 years off school and when I came back I started over with college algebra (my test scores were ok enough to let me start there after doing some reviewing with some software program I had picked up - sorry don't remember what it's called anymore). This time I was getting it. I was still terrified but at least I was doing decent (B's). I took college algebra and trig and then I took Calc I (it was required for my major).

I didn't have a great teacher for Calc I but I had a B going into the final and then I bombed the final and ended up with a D. So I re-registered to take it again. This time I ended up with a night class, with a horrible teacher,and I just couldn't do it and had a D all the way through. In the meantime I got thru Gen chem and Alg Based Physics with B, B+, B-, and B respectively and I got exposure to derivatives from a good teacher in both biomechanics and Alg-based Physics (not that we were responsible for them but he liked to show us that it really wasn't that bad). I signed up for Calc I again determined to make it through this time. I had an awesome teacher, and thanks to the exposure I had in my other classes I was finally starting to get the language (calculus is definitely a different language that you need to learn). I got an A-!

Thanks to all the math I had done on the physics and gen chem exams, and the approach both my calc teacher and my physics teacher took I was no longer terrified of it. I knew I could do it now. By this time I had added a chemistry major so I was going to have to take Calc II and III as well. And I had decided I wanted to take Calc-based physics so I could take Physical Chemistry when the time came. So I took calc-based Physics I and Calc II in the summer and lo and behold I could do it - got 2 B's. Calc-based Physics II got a B+ (only .2 away from the A-). Calc III was more difficult, not so much because of the material as the exam questions were often things that were never even remotely shown in the book, so I ended up with a C. This fall I'm taking Diff eq. and Calc-based Physics III and have been a physics minor since Physics I.

Now all my friends think I'm some sort of math whiz lol. I'm not, I do still have to work at it, but I've figured out the language (I actually find calculus easier for the most part than algebra/trig and definitely easier than geometry), and I'm no longer terrified of it (although the Calc III exams did cause some palpitations lol).

You're obviously an intelligent girl. And given that you are excellent at logic and mind games you definitely have the capability to do well in the math. Just work lots of problems, take lots of deep breaths, and try not to let it freak you out. (At first it will, but it will get easier in time.) For med school you really don't have to go past algebra/trig (or pre-calc) and stats, but there are a handful of schools that want at least Calc I, and a couple that want Calc 2, and a lot of the science majors require at least Calc I. Trust me, if I could do it you definitely can! I suck at logic games lol.

Good luck, and don't worry that you won't be able to get your math skills where you need them to be. You will. I've found that women tend to "get" math better as they hit their mid-20s+ whereas guys "get" it in high school (for the most part - there's always exceptions).

 

[Cymy]

I am also a math-phobe and a non-trad. I got through Algebra 2/Trig by the skin of my teeth with a C- in high school 17 years ago. I had a math-genius boyfriend who tutored me non-stop for 2 days before the final--which I aced, bringing my grade from an F to a C-. My teacher was stunned, to say the least. He asked me where my sudden brain came from.

I left ugrad at BU early back in 1995 and am going back this January to complete my BA and hopefully eventually go to whichever med school will take me. While I was there I took a single math class, Discrete Math, because it was the easiest thing I could find to fulfill the requirement. So in 105 credits I managed to get through with only that one class--if I didn't have this crazy pre-med idea, I could probably still graduate with only that one.

So this fall I'm taking Algebra 2/Trig again because I forgot everything I knew--actually right now I'm playing hooky from my own studies of my kid's Algebra I book--I'm determined to finish it by the time classes start so that I'm not totally stupid when they start talking about functions, sines, cosines, and the like. 😛 Pre-Calculus and Calculus are the next hurdles I have to cross. My husband watches me occasionally banging my head against my desk with this Algebra stuff and makes it clear that he doubts I'll get through Calculus.

I have my 17 year old foster son to tutor me--at least until he goes away to college next fall!

Good luck with facing the math, there are others of us out here in the same situation. 🙂

--Cymy

 

[Skaterbabe74]

So this fall I'm taking Algebra 2/Trig again because I forgot everything I knew--actually right now I'm playing hooky from my own studies of my kid's Algebra I book--I'm determined to finish it by the time classes start so that I'm not totally stupid when they start talking about functions, sines, cosines, and the like. 😛 Pre-Calculus and Calculus are the next hurdles I have to cross. My husband watches me occasionally banging my head against my desk with this Algebra stuff and makes it clear that he doubts I'll get through Calculus.


--Cymy

So long as you don't end up with a prof who's a stickler for the algebra, calculus is way way easier than algebra (or at least Calc I is, there's a very sticky points in Calc II and III once you get into 3-D functions but even those aren't too bad). You'll be fine. I still make the stupidest mistakes when it comes to the algebra of stuff lol. Once you get into calculus you'll ask yourself why schools didn't teach you all this earlier - it's soo much easier.

Good luck!

 

[Febrifuge]

<< Any one else out there who's struggled with the math but still thought they might make it to med school? >>

I dunno about med school, but they make those of us who want to be PA's take the GRE. That has a whole section of math. I was just like you; got to about Algebra and ran screaming from the subject forever. Got a BA and skated by with logic and "math for boneheads" as requirements.

And later, studied well and kicked the Quantitative section of the GRE pretty ably. It can be done. For me, the turning point was taking Statistics, which was a course a) I could see I would use and b) which had a great instructor.

Align yourself with the right people, and you'll be set.

 

[cabinbuilder]

I am a first year resident: Yes, a doctor. I hate math, I can't do it in my head. Yesterday my res director sat down with me to show me about doing the anion gap in acid-base disorders. #1 I can't remember what the normal values for anything is (I have to have a cheat sheet in front of me) #2: I cannot do simple addition or subtraction in my head. Seriously he looked at me in exasperation when I wrote out 142- (120+15). I can't do it in my head. I use a calculator. I use the cheat sheet. There really is no math in med school except for a few equations (I never remember them). The hard part is getting throug the physics and chem pre-req's to get to med school. I took those classes over and over because of the math. It wasn't until I had a very patient physic prof who sat down with me a taught me the algebra I never learned before I could pass. Don't let math hold you back. Just get through it. We all have something that makes life difficult. You just work through it. Good luck.

 

[NonTradMed]

This post is partly a repost from the Harvard post-bacc program thread, as far as the introductory stuff goes, but I'm getting no love over there, and what's more, I want to talk about math.

First, the intro. I am getting my (belated) undergrad degree at Harvard Extension school and am planning to do their Health Career Program as a part of my ALB (Harvard extension's version of a B.A.) degree. I won't actually start dipping my toes into the pre-reqs until next fall. This semester I'm taking the required expository writing class and cliche of cliches--a psych 101 class. I really need to beef up my math skills right before the prereqs so I'll be taking algebra and some other junk in the spring ('07).

I'm a bit of a freak--a 23 year old home-schooled humanities type who had 1 year at a miserable start-up college (now closed before ever attaining full accreditation) and then 3 years of running around working random jobs in several states. I moved to Cambridge last year for a part-time job at Harvard (and a boy).

I volunteer at Boston Healthcare for the Homeless, which I am hoping counts as some sort of "clinical" experience though it is mostly just taking vitals and putting cream and bandaids on feet. As I get further into the science morass I hope to find some small research position (hopefully still within Harvard so I can keep raking in the benefits)

Blah, blah, blah me. One of the things I am running into a lot (and something I'd like to hear if other people have encountered) is that now that I've discussed my med-school hope with friends I keep hearing over and over "but you were always terrible at math". It is true that my math needs help (it was just me and some textbooks and a notebook in my bedroom back in the high school years.) But I was capable of computational chemistry and other higher science as a little highschool intern at this place: www.shodor.org. But then, the computers did the math.

So, left to my own devices I floundered around at a pre-algebra level until I gave it up.

Is it so crazy to think that someone who has had her struggles over long division could ever be a doctor? I'm a whiz at logic and other mind-games. It's the arithmetic that slows me down. And I despite my previous math failures, I've tested out as at well above average intelligence. (I just wish someone had told me that when I was the dunce crying into her fractions.) I've ordered a bunch of remedial math books and intend to exploit Cambridge's overpopulation of tutors to the fullest extent.

My fear of math is what kept me out of the science I loved and away from any thoughts of medschool. I gave up those dreams and jumped headfirst into English and Drama 😕 *slaps 17-year-old self up the side of the head* Now I'm thinking maybe I can get over the phobia and head into medicine. But I'm still fairly freaked about the calculus (O uncharted waters!) and Physics (Oh my God!) in my near future.

Any one else out there who's struggled with the math but still thought they might make it to med school?

Your clinicals sound great----don't belittle 'handing out creams' and such, you aren't expected to do much as a premed.

As for math, you just need to sit down and really hack at it, get a tutor if you need to. Higher math isn't required for med school (although some schools require calc and most schools expect you to have taken some college math), but you do need to know your basic high school level math through trig.

Also, at my med school, we are required to learn biostatistics. As an engineering major, it's much easier than what I handled in college, just probability and such, but if you are struggling in math, you may find it one more daunting 'math' hurdle between you and the MD.

I was lucky in that, although not gifted in math, my parents pushed me to do well in math and hired a tutor to give me a heads up in school. Despite having no aptitude for numbers, I got nearly all A's in my math courses in high school through BC calc. So perhaps your best bet is to get a math tutor (like a college student) and have him/her go through the basics with you. Outline the areas of concern and do as many problems as you can. Math is all about practice, it's only when you get into upper level math courses that it really takes some talent (IMHO).

The MCAT will require some knowledge of basic math to do some of the problems. But also remember, as a professional in the sciences, you will be dealing with numbers everyday. If you plan on doing research, or reading papers, they may include data that you need to interprete. Nothing like geometry, but you need to know scientific notations, and the basic maths for chemistry etc. Just keep that mind since you have a math phobia.

 

[cordata]

Hi,
I've been looking at postbac programs and always assumed that calculus was a med school requirement. Goucher's website however states that most med schools don't have calc requirements. Is this true? Does anyone know where I can compare med school requirements at different schools (Particularly CA schools and mid-tier med schools - ex. George Washington, Drexel)? I HATE math so much. If I had a good teacher I'd be willing to learn pre-calc or calc (where ARE all the good math teachers?) but I would rather not take it at all if I knew I was going to get a low grade in the class when I knew I didn't have to.

Thanks!😳

 

[spicedmanna]

Hi,
I've been looking at postbac programs and always assumed that calculus was a med school requirement. Goucher's website however states that most med schools don't have calc requirements. Is this true? Does anyone know where I can compare med school requirements at different schools (Particularly CA schools and mid-tier med schools - ex. George Washington, Drexel)? I HATE math so much. If I had a good teacher I'd be willing to learn pre-calc or calc (where ARE all the good math teachers?) but I would rather not take it at all if I knew I was going to get a low grade in the class when I knew I didn't have to.

Thanks!😳

It's true that not all medical schools require calculus. You can check out the official requirements of all the medical schools in the MSAR, a publication released by the AAMC each year.

 

[Febrifuge]

It's true. Of the 120- or 130-some med schools in the continental US, about 25 of them still require Calc.

There was a time when you needed to read and speak German in order to get into med school. Things change.

 

[ofthebest]

Thank you all very much for your words of encouragement and for sharing your stories. I got my first books from Amazon.com "The Algebra Survival Guide (+ workbook)" and "Algebra and Arithmetic Again". If any one is interested I can let you know what I think of them after I dive in.

Today I am cranky because I got an A minus in my Harvard Summer School painting course. It was supposed to be a fun no-sweat course before I plunge into deeper and scarier waters. It was fun, and I learned a lot (I'd never done art before) but now I already have 2 A- at HES and that makes me cranky.

 

[Sundarban1]

Thank you all very much for your words of encouragement and for sharing your stories. I got my first books from Amazon.com "The Algebra Survival Guide (+ workbook)" and "Algebra and Arithmetic Again". If any one is interested I can let you know what I think of them after I dive in.

Today I am cranky because I got an A minus in my Harvard Summer School painting course. It was supposed to be a fun no-sweat course before I plunge into deeper and scarier waters. It was fun, and I learned a lot (I'd never done art before) but now I already have 2 A- at HES and that makes me cranky.

Both physics and chemistry at HES have pdf math reviews on their respective course website. Physics specifically suggests shaums outline series for science and technology for math review. If you have already taken math you do not need to retake again just to prep for the sciences.

 

[E-Raist]

I sympathize with you. I left school at 21 to co-found a tech startup. After seven years of running tech companies I've opted to change careers and look at the three years of undergrad work in front of me with some trepidation. The majority of my fears stem from several bad experiences with math.

I've failed calculus three times in my previous college years and now I'm signed up for pre-calc which starts tomorrow. I'm hoping that time and maturity will have provided me with what's required to approach math and prevail over the dragon of calculus that's loomed like a dark cloud in my academic past.

It's amazing what unmovable mountains we can make of the classes and concepts we don't understand and perhaps even convince ourselves we -can't- understand them. I'm optimistic that the elapsed time and fresh outlook will be key in approaching math which, will in turn, open the doors the to science classes.

All the best with your own trials with math... may you emerge from the crucible a stronger person. ;-)

 

[rouge et noir]

Your math problems sound a little like mine. I failed every single math class I ever took during grammar school, junior high and high school. When I dropped out of high school at age 17 I didn't even know how to do long division. All I knew was addition, subtraction, and some multiplication.

I needed some place to work but having no high school diploma or equivalent was a big problem. I decided to get my GED. I scored in the 700s for every subject except in math, in which I scored 440 (barely passing). Even then, it was only because someone had taken the time to write the answers for some of the questions very lightly in pencil in the booklet. So yeah, I'm ashamed of it looking back now, but I kind of cheated my way to the GED.

At age 18 I enrolled in a community college and took a year-long course in Medical Assisting. Things were great since most of the program was learning A&P and taking vital signs, etc. Eventually we had to learn a little math; fractions for immunization injections. I failed that part of the course although I did, somehow, pass the program.

By this time I was sure I had some kind of math learning disorder. I was pretty bright when it came to writing and science, but math I just could not get. Well one day I got tired of it (about the time I realized I wanted to be a doc) and went to the library and starting teaching myself math. I taught myself algebra, geometry, and some trig over the course of the year before I enrolled in another CC and took math classes. My placement test put me in intermediate algebra although I wasn't really sure of my skills so I started from Math 080 (elementary algebra) and worked my way up. By this time I was 20 years old, but I still had to finish my transfer degree. So yeah, I was sort of non-trad and definitely was a math athiest.

Learning math was, sadly, the hardest thing I ever had to do but I made it. All it took was a lot of damn hard work and determination on my part. I'm a MSII at a top tier med school now.