Primary physicians(IM, FM) making 350K+ salary...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I concur, having taken phone call for a large FP service, I can testify that 98% is pure hand holding bull, I once took a call at 3am from a 16 year old's mother who said her boy's nipples hurt after his first day of football practice. A simple $5 charge for phone calls would of made 98% of them think better of it. I don't think you are obligated to hand over your off time when true problems that need eyes on care can be seen at urgent care or ER.
 
You're not listening...
...I apologize, Jack, if you don't "get it," but please remember that this is the family medicine forum, and you are (frankly) out of your element.
The point is not that primary care physicians should be compensated for "taking call." The point is that we need to move beyond the concept of fee-for-service for face-to-face encounters only.
Yes, and, call represents a service that is not face to face. You are providing "availability" and in doing so making a sacrifice that, IMHO should be compensated. The patients want that availability even if they do not avail themselves of it you still have provided that service.

As everyone looks at the compensation, etc... the question will continue to move towards defining what good/service is being provided and at what price. The RVU and production system may not be perfect. The per diem on-call compensation may not be perfect. However, these things are not excessively abstract. Thus, they are systems that are more readily understood by lawmakers and payers. The further bastract the defined value becomes, the harder it will be to make ground on compensation at any level.

To say a physician outside of FM is out of their element and thus not understanding signifies patients, lawmakers, etc.... even further outside of medicine will also be out of their element and never understand. The magic language of your hardship will continue to be misunderstood and never addressed.... because we other physicians and all the non-physicians just don't get it. You're just special....

Or, we can all just stop with this crap. Stop with everytime the discussion becomes less then one may like, declare the other side to ignorant or incapable of understanding. As was said in other threads, the current arguments of overpaid specialists may get cuts to specialists but do so at the expense of not really getting better compensation of the PC physicians.

Again, for those students and FM residents, I encourage you to seek out maximum compensation opportunities. Surveys show compensation for taking unassigned/emergent ED coverage. So, when you contract, you should seek that pay. Get into the game and get compensated for your services. Or, you can complain about being underpaid, be "too good" to be compensated for unassigned/emergent call, adhere to your "ethics" and watch as the pediatrician takes home $500 per diem... cause they are not as limited by ethics as you.
...I don't think you are obligated to hand over your off time when true problems that need eyes on care can be seen at urgent care or ER.
Your just to "new age". Why in the world would you allow a trained physician to be compensated in the ED and rob you of the dignity of sitting around uncompensated waiting for a call about nipple pain! You're just so wrong. You obviously have a flaw in your ethics and got into medicine for reasons other then self sacrifice and service to mankind:meanie:
 
Last edited:
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Issues related to primary care incomes in Canada are pretty much the same as they are in the U.S.

http://www.cfp.ca/cgi/content/full/54/8/1197

The College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC) is on record calling for a closing of the income gap between family physicians and other specialists of medicine. What is that gap? Canadian Institute for Health Information data show that the average fee-for-service billings by family physicians was $212,368 from 2005 to 2006 compared with $293,450 for other specialists. (These figures only include physicians who each billed a minimum of $60,000 in the previous year.) More important, these are gross billings that do not take overhead costs into account. Typical overhead in family physicians' offices can run up to 40% of yearly gross billings and is generally higher than that of many other specialists, especially those who work entirely out of hospitals. Moreover, overhead costs are rising in many centres in Canada...The College has long advocated a blended funding system for family physicians...this allows a predictable income stream based on the number of registered patients in a practice...it provides compensation for the many tasks of family medicine that are not easily remunerated by fee-for-service—telephone calls, paperwork, travel time, or simply taking more time with those patients with greater needs. Blended funding models also usually include a fee-for-service component, which rewards volume of service provided. In addition, a series of bonus and incentive payments can encourage less popular work, such as being on call, doing obstetrics, providing inpatient care, taking on orphan patients, reaching preventive targets, and so on.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Remember that overhead, (like moo stated) goes down as a percentage the more you bill. Rent and the salary for office admins stays the same regardless of if you're billing 150k, or 300k, right?

Not necessarily. Typically, high-volume practices have higher overhead (staff, rent, etc.) in order to accomplish all of the work associated with seeing more patients. The percentages aren't likely to change much.
 
It is very possible to earn 300K plus in primary care, but you have to work hard. I have friends who have 4 clinics, PAs, other docs, urgent care, etc. Making 350K easily. It's about volume and keeping costs under control. you need some good business skills
 
Seems like the key is to get mid-levels working for you on salary while making sure the regulation/patient care is solid (which is probably a LOT harder than it sounds).
 
Seems like the key is to get mid-levels working for you on salary while making sure the regulation/patient care is solid (which is probably a LOT harder than it sounds).

This is what seems to be the reality for US primary care docs. If you hire a couple trustworthy mid-levels (that will quickly consult you when needed), then you suddenly have more time (for more complex patients) and more money to spend on your practice.
 
Seems like the key is to get mid-levels working for you on salary while making sure the regulation/patient care is solid.

This is what seems to be the reality for US primary care docs. If you hire a couple trustworthy mid-levels (that will quickly consult you when needed), then you suddenly have more time (for more complex patients) and more money to spend on your practice.

Maybe, maybe not.

Decent article on the subject: http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2000/05/midlevel.htm
 
The point is not that primary care physicians should be compensated for "taking call." The point is that we need to move beyond the concept of fee-for-service for face-to-face encounters only.


Not that my lowly two cents matters to some, but I think BD has a point. Many attorneys I know charge for ANY time--whether it be phone, research, all preps, etc. They tell you upfront. All time from their practice is billable. I don't think it's good to go to extremes with this, but hey, why not compensate for services, even phones consultations, etc?


I also agree with signing a form saying that you will be charged for missing an appointment w/o giving adequate notice. I've had to sign these forms, and really, after reading them, they seemed very reasonable. Plus other patients may need to get in to see the physician so let them have that spot for God's sake. Unless you are in a car accident or something like that, you should be able to call ahead and say you will not be able to make that appointment and need to reschedule. If you were in a car accident, I am sure the physicians are not going to hold you to the charge for missed appt--unless something is really wrong with him or her--in which case I don't think I would continue to see said physician. Word of mouth on a broad scale (not a scant few opinions here or there) is still a big deal. It can make a big difference.

I do miss some of my old school docs that would see me in a pinch pretty much no matter what. Most of those guys have died off. They seemed more caring and less business like. But medicine has change a lot, so. . .
 
Best advice from this article to make 350K+: "I read a lot of literature."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704696304575538112856615900.html

OCTOBER 25, 2010 Secrets of the System

In Medicare's Data Trove, Clues to Curing Cost Crisis
By MARK SCHOOFS and MAURICE TAMMAN

Somewhere in the New York City area there is a family-practice doctor who, government records suggest, pocketed more than $2 million in 2008 from Medicare, the federal insurance program for the elderly.

That made her one of the best-paid family-medicine physicians in the Medicare system. But more noteworthy than the sum is her pattern of billing, which strongly suggests abuse or even outright fraud, according to experts who have examined her records.

This doctor didn't do typical family medicine. Instead, she administered a wide array of sophisticated tests, including polysomnography sleep analyses, nerve conduction probes and needle electromyography procedures—some of which have been flagged by federal antifraud authorities for special scrutiny. As a doctor of osteopathy, she has certifications for family practice and a hands-on treatment called "manipulative therapy," but none in neurology. She denies wrongdoing.

The Wall Street Journal is prohibited from naming this physician despite the fact that the paper detected her by mining a database paid for by taxpayers. Known as the Medicare claims database, it is a computerized record of the bills Medicare pays for medical treatment, and it is widely considered the single best source of information on the U.S. health-care system.

Other major insurance pools—including Medicaid, the government program for poor Americans, and individual private plans—provide insight into small slices of the American populace. Medicare, by contrast, insures virtually all Americans 65 and older—a population that consumes roughly a third of all of medical spending.

Federal investigators use the database to find fraud; academic researchers mine it to compare the cost and utilization of various services; and consultants make a business out of analyzing the data for a wide variety of health-care companies. In ways large and small, it offers an unparalleled look at why America's health-care costs are spiraling.

Test Case: Sifting the Medicare Database
The Journal focused on one family-practice doctor with extremely high billing and found she had performed in 2008 an unusual array of 29 sophisticated diagnostic tests. Some of these have been flagged by federal authorities as being frequently abused. The numbers here are derived from a 5% sample of Medicare beneficiaries.

But the Medicare data come with a severe limitation: While the services and earnings of hospitals and other institutional providers can be publicly identified, such information is kept strictly confidential for doctors and other individual providers. The reason is that the American Medical Association, the doctors' trade group, successfully sued the government more than three decades ago to keep secret how much money individual physicians receive from Medicare. The AMA has continued to defend this ruling, including in two cases in which federal appeals courts issued decisions last year.

This means the American public is barred from examining in detail how Medicare spends roughly an eighth of its funds, about $62.5 billion in 2009. While that may seem like a small piece, health-care experts point out that physicians have disproportionate power to direct spending in all the other areas of the system because they admit patients into hospitals, prescribe drugs and order procedures and equipment.

The AMA stands by its position and says little would be accomplished by publishing individual physician billing information.

What's more, the vast majority of doctors are honest and, far from getting rich off Medicare, tend to believe it pays poorly.

"The AMA has zero tolerance for health fraud, and we are working with the U.S. government to fight it," said Dr. Jeremy Lazarus, the Colorado psychiatrist who chaired the task force that developed the AMA's principles on use of doctor data. "We support the release of information that will help physicians improve the care they provide, but the release of personal physician payment data does not meet that standard, and physicians, like all Americans, have the right to privacy and due process."

The Wall Street Journal, in conjunction with the nonprofit Center for Public Integrity, attempted for nearly a year to obtain the database. As part of the effort, the CPI filed a lawsuit against the Department of Health and Human Services, which houses the Medicare program. The Journal and CPI wanted the data at no cost; the government wanted $100,000 for eight years of data. In a settlement, The Journal and CPI obtained the requested data at a substantially reduced fee. They later obtained a decryption key to identify individual providers but signed a contract agreeing not to publish such identities in most cases.

The database, technically known as the Carrier Standard Analytic File, focuses on doctors and others paid on a fee-for-service basis. It contains 5% of all beneficiaries, and includes all doctor claims that Medicare paid directly in association with their care.

But even with these limitations, the power of the database is clear. If it were fully available, with doctors clearly identified, the public could expose countless ways in which some health-care providers misuse or waste taxpayer dollars, health-care advocates say. The database could even provide some information on physician quality. Especially in the digital age, the database could be a powerful tool for holding the $500 billion Medicare program accountable.

"It's very hard to defend ignorance and willful hiding of data in the 21st Century," said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who has called for the database to be public as long as patients are kept confidential. "Our estimate is that the federal government, in Medicare and Medicaid alone, loses between $70 billion and $120 billion a year to crooks. You ought to be able to identify those."

Joseph A. Califano Jr., who tried to make Medicare payments to physicians public when he was secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under President Jimmy Carter, agrees. "Just the publicity, the embarrassment—aside from the actual prosecution of fraud—would have a tremendous impact" on fraudulent billing, he said. He added that opening the database could help state professional review boards "reveal incompetence in many cases, and I think that would improve the level of medical care." He said that patients should be kept private.

Mr. Califano's experience shows how effectively doctors have resisted such disclosure. In March 1977, amid a national debate over the cost of health care, the Carter administration released a list of all doctors who received Medicare reimbursements of $100,000 or more during 1975. The media covered it, publishing the names of highly paid doctors. The top earner was New York ophthalmologist Charles D. Kelman, practicing on East 58th Street, who billed $412,757, the equivalent of nearly $1.7 million today.

The AMA responded by saying the list was riddled with errors—a charge later upheld by the Comptroller General. A Michigan doctor was listed as earning $115,000 from Medicare, when he actually earned only $15,000. "My wife must think I have an apartment on the side and a mistress as well," he quipped at the time.

Reimbursements attributed to individual physicians often went to group practices. Dr. Kelman, for example, told The New York Times that two other doctors as well as optometrists and technicians shared in reimbursements attributed to him alone.

The AMA and individual doctors also fumed that publicizing physician incomes could stigmatize high earners and generally deter doctors from treating Medicare patients. They said the list provided no way to distinguish between a hard-working doctor and a crass fraudster.

The Carter administration issued an apology for the errors. But it also said it would release the names of providers who received Medicare payments during 1977, and the amounts.

To block publication, the Florida Medical Association filed suit in Florida, and that suit was joined by the AMA.

"It has long been a fundamental value in our society that, in the absence of a compelling state interest to the contrary, a person's financial affairs are nobody's business but his own," the AMA argued in court papers.

U.S. District Court Judge Charles Scott weighed two competing interests: that of the providers, whose privacy he said would indeed be invaded, and that of the public, which had an "important interest" in knowing how much taxpayer money was spent reimbursing Medicare providers. Judge Scott ruled that the public interest could be served by scrubbing disclosures of doctor names. So, he permanently barred the government from disclosing reimbursements that "would personally and individually identify" providers.

Technically, the ruling applied only to physicians licensed to practice in Florida and all members of the AMA who participate in Medicare and who would be identified. But in practice, the government has interpreted the ruling to bar identifying any individual provider, from nurses to physical therapists, in the Medicare claims database.

Over the ensuing three decades, this ruling has withstood all challenges. Last year, in a suit the AMA joined, a federal appeals court blocked identifying even the Medicare services individual physicians provided, on the grounds that publicly available fee schedules could be used to deduce how much Medicare paid the doctors.

In a case brought by the nonprofit group Consumers' Checkbook, the federal appeals court for the District of Columbia fortified the AMA's position. While ruling that doctors have a "substantial" interest in keeping secret the amount they receive from taxpayers, the court declared that the taxpayers' interest in knowing who was getting their money was, under the Freedom of Information Act, "non-existent" or "negligible at best."

Consumers' Checkbook argued that the database could be used to fish out Medicare fraud and abuse. Law enforcement officials and other anti-fraud experts widely regard the database as one of the best tools for identifying fraud, precisely because it can be mined for aberrant billing patterns. But the appeals court boxed Consumers' Checkbook into a Catch 22, ruling that the group had to have evidence of fraud before it could use the database to find that fraud. In the court's words, Consumers' Checkbook "has not provided any evidence of alleged fraud the requested data would reveal."

Today, a billion and a quarter claims pour into Medicare each year for Part A—which includes hospital, skilled nursing facilities and hospice—and Part B, including fee-for-service physician services, and durable medical equipment. There are more than 14,000 diagnoses and more than 7,000 medical procedures, most designated by Current Procedural Terminology, or CPT, codes. Code 75992, for example, is "Transluminal atherectomy, peripheral artery, radiological supervision and interpretation."

A full set of one year's data—with doctors' names encrypted and only 5% sampling available for physician claims and durable medical equipment—costs about $18,300.

Consultants, from one-person boutiques to large corporations such as Thomson Reuters, make a business out of putting this data into an easily understandable form and answering clients' questions.

Hospice care, for example, used to be provided mostly by local, not-for-profit outfits. Now, more than half of the Medicare-licensed hospice providers are for profit, according to Cordt Kassner, whose one-man consulting firm, Colorado-based Hospice Analytics, serves a variety of hospice providers and state hospice associations. Mr. Kassner said he spends about $10,000 per year purchasing Medicare claims data.

One of his clients is Michigan-based Great Lakes Home Health & Hospice, which served about 27,000 patients last year, according to the company, including 16,500 home health-care and 1,500 hospice patients. Great Lakes CEO William Deary says he used the data to identify relatively under-served cities. In 2007, Mr. Deary's company opened an office in one such city, Lansing, and in doing so "increased our hospice revenue by 88% in 36 months," he said.

For government fraud investigators, the database is a gold mine. Even the 5% sample obtained by The Journal illustrates its potential for highlighting unusual billing activity. The newspaper mined the database for 2008 outliers within specialties, including family medicine. Of the approximately 75,000 providers in this specialty, the family doctor who performed the battery of sophisticated sleep, nerve, and other tests was one of the top billers, with reimbursements of $142,522.12 on 44 patients.

Multiplying that 5% sample figure by 20 results in an estimated $2.8 million in total fees for this doctor for the year, although the wide statistical margin of error means it's impossible to pinpoint the exact number. A person with knowledge of the matter said the doctor's Medicare fees totalled $2.2 million in 2008.

Interviewed on a rainy Friday afternoon at work, the doctor acknowledged taking in more than $2 million from Medicare that year. She added that she ran a clinic with many employees and high overhead.

Within the 5% sample, this doctor is an outlier in several ways. Her billing shot up 16-fold from 2006 to 2007, and continued rising the following year. She averaged $3,239 in earnings per patient in 2008—nearly 18 times the mean for family-medicine doctors, and the 7th highest among family physicians with 10 or more patients.

Counting only diagnostic tests performed on at least two patients, the doctor performed or supervised 29 separate sleep, neurological, ultrasound and other diagnostic tests. Looking across all 811,785 providers in the 5% database, no other provider of any specialty conducted all 29 of those tests in 2008.

The Journal asked several fraud and billing experts to review spreadsheets showing this provider's billing from the 5% database. Her identity was kept private.

"The conspicuously large number of diagnostic tests appear medically improbable," said Kirk Ogrosky, a former federal prosecutor who specialized in Medicare fraud and is now a partner at Arnold & Porter.

The range of tests is "just so unusual, I don't see how that could be otherwise explained" than through abuse or fraud, said David Sand, medical director of HMS Inc., a company that helps numerous states control costs and root out fraud and abuse in the Medicaid system. The "breadth and depth of medical knowledge" required to do such an array of tests "defies comprehension," he said.

The New York-area physician, in the interview, denied any wrongdoing and said she only administered tests "recommended by the [medical] literature." She added: "I read a lot of literature."

After an audit by a Medicare contractor a year or two ago, she says she closed the office she was using at the time. She said she no longer does most of the 29 diagnostic tests she performed in 2008.

She does still practice medicine—in fact, she works out of at least three offices in two states. And she said she still has patients on Medicare and Medicaid. In the interview, she spoke about a range of treatment options, including one she used in her home country: leeches. She doesn't use leeches here "because of malpractice." In any case, Medicare doesn't have a specific billing code for leeches.
 
Not necessarily. Typically, high-volume practices have higher overhead (staff, rent, etc.) in order to accomplish all of the work associated with seeing more patients. The percentages aren't likely to change much.
Only partially true. If you double your patient load, you don't need to exactly double the size of the office or staff. Overhead of course will rise, but not nearly as much as billings do.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Only partially true. If you double your patient load, you don't need to exactly double the size of the office or staff. Overhead of course will rise, but not nearly as much as billings do.

I never claimed there was a linear relationship. You, however, claimed "rent and the salary for office admins stays the same" despite doubling your billings, which is unlikely to be the case

Doubling your billings essentially means doubling your throughput (e.g., workload). You're not going to be able to accomplish that without increasing your staff unless you're already operating well below capacity. A larger staff and higher patient volume will also likely require a larger office space to accommodate them (unless, of course you simply intend to overwork your staff, extend your office hours, and shorten your appointments...good luck with that).

Staffing costs and rent are the largest elements of overhead in any practice.
 
I never claimed there was a linear relationship. You, however, claimed "rent and the salary for office admins stays the same" despite doubling your billings, which is unlikely to be the case
Actually I never said that. I think you're mixing up user postings or something. However, as I said, the cost for rent, office admin etc. does not double. Things become more efficient as you are able to see a larger volume of patients. That's why at least up here in Canada, owning medical clinics is such a lucrative business. You can have 5-6 doctors working for you, taking 65%-70% of the their billings, and the remaining 30% easily covers your overhead with lots of leftover for profit.
 
Actually I never said that. I think you're mixing up user postings or something.

It was "Jayceee."

However, as I said, the cost for rent, office admin etc. does not double.

I never said it did.

Things become more efficient as you are able to see a larger volume of patients. That's why at least up here in Canada, owning medical clinics is such a lucrative business. You can have 5-6 doctors working for you, taking 65%-70% of the their billings, and the remaining 30% easily covers your overhead with lots of leftover for profit.

Totally different subject. I'm not really all that interested in medical economics in Canada. I don't live there.