Private aircraft

[Brigade4Radiant]

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With the recent death of Kobe Bryant it got me thinking about how dangerous private aviation is.

Especailly with how many physicians die in plane crashes it makes me think twice before getting into any private aircraft. Also 97% of airplane and helicopter crashes and fatalites are from private aircraft.

 

[Porfirio]

Agreed. Not worth the risk, for me.

 

[CajunMedic]

I’ve always heard the Beechcraft Bonanza referred to as the “V-tailed doctor killer”


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[Emapp20177]

I know some programs (i.e. Cinci) advertise their flight experience as a selling point, but it was one of the reasons (other being 4 year program) that I ranked them pretty low. Not worth the risk. People get paid a lot to do these jobs, for good reason. (I know you're talking about leisure flying, but still)

 

[Birdstrike]

Commercial aviation: Very safe.
General aviation: Much less safe.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I’ve always heard the Beechcraft Bonanza referred to as the “V-tailed doctor killer”


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Bonanzas were doctor killers for two reasons. The old V tails had some structural issues. Those flying today have had manufacturer reinforcements.

The other reason was that bonanzas are not entry level planes - they are faster and temperamental in the wrong hands. Doctors wouldget their aviation license and by a bonanza because they were faster than the Cherokee or Cessna they trained in andhad a crew cab that could seat 4 plus golf clubs. It’s a matter of hubris. I’ve flown for the past 10 years. As long as you are smart about how and when you fly and keep your plane in good shape, it’s a safe hobby.

 

[e30ftw]

My dad and 3 of his brothers got their VFR rating in high school and bought a Cessna 140 together in the mid '70s. Tons of cool stories of flying all around the US/Caribbean back when it was cheap..

I spent some time in the air growing up and always enjoyed it, but never got my license mainly due to being broke (still not a great excuse).

There's a few local guys with kit planes who take off at the local airport and buzz us on the lake in the summer. Looks like a great time but I have enough dangerous hobbies and getting into aviation at this point seems a bit risky and expensive..

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Kobe Bryant died?

 

[d2305]

Looks like IFR conditions were not handled properly.

 

[WildcatS11]

I know some programs (i.e. Cinci) advertise their flight experience as a selling point, but it was one of the reasons (other being 4 year program) that I ranked them pretty low. Not worth the risk. People get paid a lot to do these jobs, for good reason. (I know you're talking about leisure flying, but still)

I would not lump in flight doc programs like AirCare from cincy with this type of private aviation - the articles I’ve read specifically say that all the official police/city helicopters were grounded due to weather, but they decided to fly anyway. I have some first hand experience - the folks at Cincy run that program incredibly well, and have robust safety policies in place. There are strict criteria for flying, and even if those criteria are met, if any one person On the flight team (flight nurse, paramedic, resident, pilot) says they don’t feel safe then the entire flight is canceled.

 

[Siggy]

I would not lump in flight doc programs like AirCare from cincy with this type of private aviation - the articles I’ve read specifically say that all the official police/city helicopters were grounded due to weather, but they decided to fly anyway. I have some first hand experience - the folks at Cincy run that program incredibly well, and have robust safety policies in place. There are strict criteria for flying, and even if those criteria are met, if any one person On the flight team (flight nurse, paramedic, resident, pilot) says they don’t feel safe then the entire flight is canceled.

Still, HEMS has an abysmal safety record. Where I did medical school and TRI year, there was a memorial plaque for the crew of the 2006 Mercy Air HEMS accident. Cause of the accident? Controlled flight into ground in fog. 3 people died because they wanted to get back to base... they had already dropped off their patient.

 

[Premed341]

Kobe’s plane was 30 years old..guess that’s what happens when you’re cheap..

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Kobe’s plane was 30 years old..guess that’s what happens when you’re cheap..

You mean helicopter

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Kobe’s plane was 30 years old..guess that’s what happens when you’re cheap..

My plane is 40. Most private aircraft are not new as long as they’ve had their annual. Maybe comment on a topic you’re familiar with....

 

[Premed341]

My plane is 40. Most private aircraft are not new as long as they’ve had their annual. Maybe comment on a topic you’re familiar with....

Are you worth 300 million?

 

[BoardingDoc]

Are you worth 300 million?

I suspect they aren't, but Kobe was and also had an older aircraft. You appear to be proving @CyrilFiggis's argument that your net worth doesn't dictate the age of the aircraft you own, and that private aircraft tend to be older.

For further context: Trump's personal plane before he became president is nearly 30 years old and was built in 1991.
ref: Trump Force One - Wikipedia

 

[Startingover123]

Are you worth 300 million?

You do realize that nothing went wrong with the helicopter right? It was poor conditions and pilot error. Secondly, your emphatic nature should make you a great doctor....

 

[Premed341]

You do realize that nothing went wrong with the helicopter right? It was poor conditions and pilot error. Secondly, your emphatic nature should make you a great doctor....

I don’t think we know all the details yet of what caused the crash...

 

[SXMMD]

Kobe’s plane was 30 years old..guess that’s what happens when you’re cheap..

I don’t think we know all the details yet of what caused the crash...

So perhaps you should stop talking until we do

 

[Premed341]

So perhaps you should stop talking until we do

I mean 30 years old just seems odd when you’re that rich for a helicopter..why would I stop talking? I’m just throwing out an idea given the helicopter crashed I’m surprised he would have such an old one when you can easily get a new one

 

[e30ftw]

RIP

Prelim details

 

[deleted497653]

I don’t own a private aircraft but wanted to add my +1 that “medical transport” planes tend to be safer and the pilots follow advice when not to fly. Atleast, at my residency program that was true. I still opted out because flying wasn’t my thing and didnt feel like I would be contributing anything as the flight nurses rely heavily on protocol. I felt like just an extra body on the plane.

RIP to all those who perished.

 

[WildcatS11]

Still, HEMS has an abysmal safety record. Where I did medical school and TRI year, there was a memorial plaque for the crew of the 2006 Mercy Air HEMS accident. Cause of the accident? Controlled flight into ground in fog. 3 people died because they wanted to get back to base... they had already dropped off their patient.

Totally - and that, if I recall correctly, was a privately owned, for profit HEMS service. Private groups are well known for taking flights that other groups have turned down due to weather in order to make a profit.

I only mention cincy because the above poster did (and residents there are required to fly) - I know for a fact that the safety standards are incredibly high.

 

[Apollyon]

Secondly, your emphatic nature should make you a great doctor....

Don't do that.

(Make implications about how good (or bad) someone will be as a doctor, contingent on what they post.)

This even has a name - "Burnett's Law" (based on the creator of SDN, @Lee , or, at least, his name). It is, paraphrased, "(something), and, because of this, you'll be a horrible doctor".

 

[d2305]

I actually considered getting back into flying until I watched a few crash and burns on youtube. Bryant's helicopter crash was a common case of VFR conditions deteriorating into IFR. The pilot was instrument rated but flew VFR under marginal conditions.

 

[Vandalia]

Still, HEMS has an abysmal safety record. Where I did medical school and TRI year, there was a memorial plaque for the crew of the 2006 Mercy Air HEMS accident. Cause of the accident? Controlled flight into ground in fog. 3 people died because they wanted to get back to base... they had already dropped off their patient.

Do they have a memorial plaque for EMS crews that have been killed there in ambulance crashes?

As but one very recent example:

Paramedic Hit, Killed, When Ambulance Struck During I-70 Crash

A paramedic was hit and killed while helping a crash victim on I-70.

pittsburgh.cbslocal.com

 

[Siggy]

Do they have a memorial plaque for EMS crews that have been killed there in ambulance crashes?

As but one very recent example:

Paramedic Hit, Killed, When Ambulance Struck During I-70 Crash

A paramedic was hit and killed while helping a crash victim on I-70.

pittsburgh.cbslocal.com

Where I was at was in Southern California, but no... no love for ground EMS.

 

[deleted109597]

Do they have a memorial plaque for EMS crews that have been killed there in ambulance crashes?

As but one very recent example:

Paramedic Hit, Killed, When Ambulance Struck During I-70 Crash

A paramedic was hit and killed while helping a crash victim on I-70.

pittsburgh.cbslocal.com

No. Boxes are terrible billboards. Helicopters OTOH...


Yeah, I don't know why it's that way either. HEMS are like FF. They're all godlike heroes for doing dangerous jobs I guess.

 

[Saddleshoes]

I'm guessing most of us can name 2-3 colleagues that have died while at the controls of their private aircraft.

I can name 3 professional friends that went down in their own planes but I can only recall one professional friend that died while driving a car.

 

[BoardingDoc]

I'm guessing most of us can name 2-3 colleagues that have died while at the controls of their private aircraft.

I can name 3 professional friends that went down in their own planes but I can only recall one professional friend that died while driving a car.

I don't personally know 3 people who own planes/helicopters/ultralights/whatever, let alone 3 who have died piloting them. I feel like your social circles may not be generalizable to this board. That or my friends are less wealthy/less into aviation than most people's.

 

[Saddleshoes]

I don't personally know 3 people who own planes/helicopters/ultralights/whatever, let alone 3 who have died piloting them. I feel like your social circles may not be generalizable to this board. That or my friends are less wealthy/less into aviation than most people's.

You may be right!
I am likely older then most of the folks on this board.

 

[Birdstrike]

Still, HEMS has an abysmal safety record. Where I did medical school and TRI year, there was a memorial plaque for the crew of the 2006 Mercy Air HEMS accident. Cause of the accident? Controlled flight into ground in fog. 3 people died because they wanted to get back to base... they had already dropped off their patient.

Walked into a 7 am shift one day and I was told, "Don't bother calling the chopper today. They can't find it."

Same thing. They had dropped off their patient and wanted to get back to home base. They flew into weather and nosedived into the ground. Crew killed. Young people, too. Pilot, male EMT, young mom nurse with kids. Sucks.

I wonder if anyone has calculated NNT and NNH's for chopper transport. That would be nice to know. How many times do you need to send a patient by chopper does it get them their sufficiently faster than ground transport, that their life was saved (and would've been lost) in that time difference (NNT). That, versus how many times is a chopper called and a life (usually more than one, crew +/- patient) is lost (NNH). That might be a decent research idea for an EM resident or EMS fellow, if not already done.

My guess is the results might surprise us.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I'm generally against air medical transport. The vast majority of flights I've seen could be accomplished by ground ambulance. The reality is that they do these non-emergent flights in order to pad their revenues and maintain the service. I would never fly in one of those helicopters.

Also, old aircraft doesn't necessarily mean a bad aircraft. B-52s have been flying now for 70 years, and are safe as they've had modernization and maintenance. Sheldon Adelson parks his B747-SP at the airport here, and it's got to be close to 50 years old, yet he regularly flies it to Singapore.

The 737-MAX was a brand new aircraft (although based on a 50-year old design) and look what happened with that.....

 

[RoyBasch]

I'm generally against air medical transport. The vast majority of flights I've seen could be accomplished by ground ambulance. The reality is that they do these non-emergent flights in order to pad their revenues and maintain the service. I would never fly in one of those helicopters.

I'm in agreement, I work in a small hospital in the sticks and by the time aeromedical transport is scrambled and arrives, the patient would be halfway to a tertiary care center by ground EMS driving fast on the highway. I think aeromedical transport is really only necessary for the really small hospitals more than a few hours from tertiary care.

Our town's EMS crew has specifically raced air vs. ground and ground arrives to tertiary care faster despite 1 hour drive time.

But, as you pointed out, there might not be enough volume from those small truly remote centers for the aeromedical transport companies to remain solvent in light of their fairly high operating costs. Hence transports where air is not really needed.

Also, old aircraft doesn't necessarily mean a bad aircraft. B-52s have been flying now for 70 years, and are safe as they've had modernization and maintenance. Sheldon Adelson parks his B747-SP at the airport here, and it's got to be close to 50 years old, yet he regularly flies it to Singapore.

The 737-MAX was a brand new aircraft (although based on a 50-year old design) and look what happened with that.....

Agree. In aviation sometimes "old" but "time tested and proven" is better than new and untested as there is very little margin of error (say compared to commercial electronics where "newer is always better!")

Furthermore, absolute age of an airframe is less deterministic of its wear than number of operations (take off, fly, then land). Thus privately operated machines that are only used by one or a few individuals on occasion compared to a commercial aircraft with half a dozen flights a day may actually be in better shape despite older absolute age.

 

[Siggy]

But, as you pointed out, there might not be enough volume from those small truly remote centers for the aeromedical transport companies to remain solvent in light of their fairly high operating costs. Hence transports where air is not really needed.

So... despite essentially no benefit, poor safety records, and $10k bills, it's in the best interest of the patient to use the service otherwise the service will go out of business?

 

[deleted109597]

So... despite essentially no benefit, poor safety records, and $10k bills, it's in the best interest of the patient to use the service otherwise the service will go out of business?

Well, it was back when insurance paid for it. Now that insurance is only a thing we pay premiums to and don't get any benefit, well, uh. Yeah.

 

[RoyBasch]

So... despite essentially no benefit, poor safety records, and $10k bills, it's in the best interest of the patient to use the service otherwise the service will go out of business?

I am not advocating for aeromedical transport, in fact I suspect I share your position that in most cases it is not indicated and not cost effective. I am trying to analyze why it occurs in spite of these factors.

 

[Siggy]

I am not advocating for aeromedical transport, in fact I suspect I share your position that in most cases it is not indicated and not cost effective. I am trying to analyze why it occurs in spite of these factors.

Same reason a lot of things that are of limited benefit, carry high risks, and costs... for which EMS does a lot of too. Helicopters are cool.

After all, didn't you see that mechanism of injury?