Private practice vs. hospital employed

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DrAwsome

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So it appears that there is a trend for new doctors to go into hospital employment vs. pp for the past few years. My understanding is that hospitals are trying to "buy out" private practices.

My question is-with the new obamacare law going into effect soon, and the influx of millions of new people into the system, how are hospitals going to absorb the huge number of patients with the decrease of private practices?

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they will also hire more nurse practitioners

So are NPs equal to PCPs these days as far as practice? Do they get to practice independently? Also, I was referring to specialists. It is my understanding that in pp, even specialists see far more patients than in the hospital. Won't that cause far less patients to be seen? I guess it does not make sense to me. They are introducing 30+ mill new people. Why is there a tendency for hospitals to buy practices? I guess I also don't understand what the point of having PCPs is if they want to replace them with midlevels at a lower cost. Why not decrease primary care residencies progressively then? This whole thing does not make sense to me!
 
I'm beginning to think that you don't understand what "hospital employed" actually means. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're physically working in the hospital. Just that the hospital owns the practice. I work for a hospital owned group which is in a medical office building 5 miles from the hospital. I never actually set foot in that particular hospital that owns the practice.
 
For cardiology, a lot of the private practices let themselves be bought out by hospital systems for the security (at least that is my understanding). They would have guaranteed retirement plan, health insurance, etc. as an employee of the hospital system. Also a lot of the cardiology practices were afraid they would start losing money, since CMS/the gov't cut reimbursement for cardiac imaging by 30% or so. The hospitals like having employed doctors because then they have guaranteed specialist care for the patients in their system, and people to cover the on call/consults for that specialty in their hospital. Also if the hospital system plays its cards right, they can make a profit off of us (if they can get us to bill a lot and pay us a little less than the profit/$ they are making off of whatever we bill).
The pluses of being employed include having guaranteed medical insurance, disability insurance, and (supposedly) the ability to take vacations a couple of weeks per year, and you may get a CME allowance and/or extra days to attend educational conferences. You also have some job security/income security in the sense that usually they will sign you to a contract for a couple of years at a time.
The minuses include you may have little or not control over your call schedule, how many patients per day that you see, or the office staff (such as whether your medical assistants and front office staff are any good). Also, the hospital system's goal is to make money and your goal is hopefully to provide the best care, and sometimes they don't alway match up 100%. So far, my biggest complaints are lack of control over my clinic schedule, and general lack of organization at my office (they keep changing medical assistants, and couldn't seem to get my computer accesses set up right when I started). Also I seem to get stuck "covering" phone calls, etc. for other doctors but without equal payback/reciprocation. Since I'm an employee I have little say in all this...but I do have a guaranteed paycheck and patients coming in the door every day.
 
For cardiology, a lot of the private practices let themselves be bought out by hospital systems for the security (at least that is my understanding). They would have guaranteed retirement plan, health insurance, etc. as an employee of the hospital system. Also a lot of the cardiology practices were afraid they would start losing money, since CMS/the gov't cut reimbursement for cardiac imaging by 30% or so. The hospitals like having employed doctors because then they have guaranteed specialist care for the patients in their system, and people to cover the on call/consults for that specialty in their hospital. Also if the hospital system plays its cards right, they can make a profit off of us (if they can get us to bill a lot and pay us a little less than the profit/$ they are making off of whatever we bill).
The pluses of being employed include having guaranteed medical insurance, disability insurance, and (supposedly) the ability to take vacations a couple of weeks per year, and you may get a CME allowance and/or extra days to attend educational conferences. You also have some job security/income security in the sense that usually they will sign you to a contract for a couple of years at a time.
The minuses include you may have little or not control over your call schedule, how many patients per day that you see, or the office staff (such as whether your medical assistants and front office staff are any good). Also, the hospital system's goal is to make money and your goal is hopefully to provide the best care, and sometimes they don't alway match up 100%. So far, my biggest complaints are lack of control over my clinic schedule, and general lack of organization at my office (they keep changing medical assistants, and couldn't seem to get my computer accesses set up right when I started). Also I seem to get stuck "covering" phone calls, etc. for other doctors but without equal payback/reciprocation. Since I'm an employee I have little say in all this...but I do have a guaranteed paycheck and patients coming in the door every day.

You are in cards right? So how does your hospital employed vs. pp compare pay wise?
And when you say you don't have control over your call schedule, what exactly do you mean-they tell you when you have to cover call or what? How was it before? Also, do you feel you have a more regular, 40 hr type schedule or are you working more than 40 hrs without being compensated?

Why did you chose this vs. regular pp-was it for fear given the recent/upcoming changes or what?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get informed.
 
Here is another scenario:
Hospital buys local physician multi-specialty group practice. The founding partners were approaching retirement age and the newer docs decided having the hospital employ them was the way to go, so they all sold out. During the honeymoon, the docs got just what they had before, but when the contracts were up, the new contracts were not exactly as expected.

Top docs (by referrals, revenue production) left the group/refused to sign contracts, leaving less revenue to spread around. The newer docs were then told to take up the slack and bring in more revenue or salaries, vacations, benefits would be cut. When that didn't make up the slack, a year later, the newest round of contracts said a certain percentage of pay was at risk if docs didn't cut the mustard, and oh, by the way, your vacation isn't paid, but you're ahead of where you were because you don't have to pay for coverage when you're off.

Let the buyer beware. If I am forced into a hospital employment situation, the next sound heard will be the sonic boom of me leaving town. I've seen it and I've seen what happens when generalists and specialists alike swoon to the employment siren song.

It may be that O'care and the panels and CMS and its minions are going to break us, but I'd rather be a free enough agent that it's my choice to go along with their programs or not.

As an employee, if the CMS/Ocare/NextVersion decides to cut 30% and the employer says, we can't afford to pay you because of this, so we're cutting your salary, and by the way, you have a 50 mile 2 year restrictive covenant, then you have no choice, and you are screwed. And, by the way, we're making the same profit off of you, as you are now doing more....for less. Life is good, for us the hospital.

Let's all be careful out there. TANSTAAFL.
 
Here is another scenario:
Hospital buys local physician multi-specialty group practice. The founding partners were approaching retirement age and the newer docs decided having the hospital employ them was the way to go, so they all sold out. During the honeymoon, the docs got just what they had before, but when the contracts were up, the new contracts were not exactly as expected.

Top docs (by referrals, revenue production) left the group/refused to sign contracts, leaving less revenue to spread around. The newer docs were then told to take up the slack and bring in more revenue or salaries, vacations, benefits would be cut. When that didn't make up the slack, a year later, the newest round of contracts said a certain percentage of pay was at risk if docs didn't cut the mustard, and oh, by the way, your vacation isn't paid, but you're ahead of where you were because you don't have to pay for coverage when you're off.

Let the buyer beware. If I am forced into a hospital employment situation, the next sound heard will be the sonic boom of me leaving town. I've seen it and I've seen what happens when generalists and specialists alike swoon to the employment siren song.

It may be that O'care and the panels and CMS and its minions are going to break us, but I'd rather be a free enough agent that it's my choice to go along with their programs or not.

As an employee, if the CMS/Ocare/NextVersion decides to cut 30% and the employer says, we can't afford to pay you because of this, so we're cutting your salary, and by the way, you have a 50 mile 2 year restrictive covenant, then you have no choice, and you are screwed. And, by the way, we're making the same profit off of you, as you are now doing more....for less. Life is good, for us the hospital.

Let's all be careful out there. TANSTAAFL.

Why would hospitals be greedy like that? Many other industries reward their employees. Who would continue in medicine if things went down like this?

And also, do you think all specialties are at risk of this, or certain more than others?
 
You should plan to stay for the duration of the first honeymoon contract, it might even be better than you've had before re the benefits, etc. You can buff your CV, sell the house, get a license in another state, etc. Then, you go to the new opportunity. Unfortunately sometimes the hospital arranges complex buy out plans that pay out over many years, effectively tapping you, or making you walk away from some of your loot. My neighbor is in a similar situation, though he doesn't want to leave. He was a partner for the buy out, the new partners don't get that $$, that's still paying several years later.
 
Why would hospitals be greedy like that? Many other industries reward their employees. Who would continue in medicine if things went down like this?

And also, do you think all specialties are at risk of this, or certain more than others?

Your first question: My opinion is that greed is universal, and the love of power (lust for power) and the love of money (lust for money) are the roots of evil. There are centuries of data to support this.

Your second question: I don't know. I suspect that the primary specialties, at least initially are more at risk, but once the primaries are on board, then the specialists may be coerced as the institution lets the specialists know that they now control the referral base, and if they want to keep getting referrals from the primaries, they'll hop on board too.

Thus endeth the gospel.

------------------------------------------
Detailed thoughts on how they might pull this off/have pulled it off.

Two schools of thought on the first question: School A: labor is labor, get it as cheap as you can get away with to maximize profits. And pay not one red cent more than you must to keep that labor doing the work. Physicians are labor, and due to a wide variety of archaic but still enforceable anti-trust constraints unable to pool together to further their own interests. The way they get around this is "group practices" either single or multi-specialty which gives some leverage and bargaining strength. It also frees us from having to watch our own backs which is becoming increasingly difficult. In this model, hospitals will look at the revenue sources and seek to maximize them by keeping docs happy that are able to pull referrals, keep patients within the "system" and shift patient care patterns away from competing enterprises.

School B: As you suggest, some industries reward their employees. Well and good. As an employer, my philosophy is more along your lines, and I have happy, productive and efficient employees who work hard for me when they must, and we share the rewards. They are loyal, turnover is very low, and will do darn near anything for me when the going gets rough. It works for me (and for them), but then I earn less than I would with the school A model. The economic theory here is that I do what is best for me, but also what is best for the group. We all gain.

The School A group thinks it has enough power to maximize its personal gain by being a sweat shop and as long as they can attract labor willing to accept their terms, they survive. It may be a J-1 waiver populated group, but they will experience turnover as soon as their waivers turn into green cards. It is largely irrelevant what other industries do or do not do, and even within those industries, both schools are represented. Here the employer does what is best for the employer which works in the shorter term and they maximize next quarter's profits (or surpluses if you are a not-for-profit). Ultimately the price will be paid by them, but by that time the execs will have moved on to other fertile ground, and taken their bonuses.

Here's an example: Hospital A in the big city has fallen on hard times. The city population is shrinking due to a loss of job base, and increasing crime. Hospital A is cash rich, but is running on its reserves. It looks about and sees the small outer ring Hospital B with a good cash flow. It changes its name to System A. Hospital B has just purchased its local physician multi-group specialty and now controls the referral base surrounding it. Not a large population compared to System A, but respectable, and with a solid revenue stream.

System A (only composed of Hospital A) approaches Hospital B and offers to allow Hospital B to join the System and use its "resources" to help expand its market and make more money. In exchange, System will provide billing, purchasing, advice, marketing experts, shared efficiencies in labs, etc, and a good time (and profit) will be had by all. Hospital B sees System and its flagship hospital, a pre-eminent institution (which has guarded well its troubles from the world) and joins System and all is good.

Except that System now has access to revenue stream data, cost/expense, patient flow data and is now able to see where Hospital B is making its money, expand its product lines (a lucrative lab test it can add), "merge" that function into its lab and then tell Hospital B that the System can provide that service and since they're in the System they must abandon their own lab test but they can keep the revenue minus the costs of the test as established by the System. But Hospital B still has the equipment, the personnel, and the overhead, which eventually must be cut. And when Hospital B is sending all its revenue to the System it will be cut and Hospital B now has less ability to support itself until it becomes insolvent and is abandoned or absorbed by the System. Its docs, and the formerly happy family are now unwilling adoptees of the System and the System is now free to dictate terms. Like it or lump it, and by the way, if you leave, you've got a non-complete with not just Hospital B, but the System which covers both Hospital A and Hospital B (and Hospitals C, D, and E which we've just bought too).

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I've seen this happen too many times. It is far more likely to happen in a major city with an affluent suburban ring environment, but out-burbs are not immune.
 
Because they can, especially with the heaps of regulation/requirement from Obamacare making private solo and smaller group practices unsustainable, and pretty much leaving no choice but consolidation. 4 more weeks...
 
Because they can, especially with the heaps of regulation/requirement from Obamacare making private solo and smaller group practices unsustainable, and pretty much leaving no choice but consolidation. 4 more weeks...

Thats not a good response. Lots of employers "can" screw their employees over, but many don't. Look at consulting companies, pharm companies, sales people-they all get bonuses, etc. for goals and what not. Their employers can choose to screw them over but they dont. So "bc they can" is not a good explanation.

And if things get worse in the medical world, ppl will stop going to medical school. Look at primary care-it's practically devoid of AMGs. If there isn't any serious $$$ in specialties, then less ppl will go into them. Even look at lower paying IM specialties-endo, nephro, ID, etc they are all filled with IMG/FMGs bc of the crap pay. Continue doing that for other specialties and you can say goodbye to AMGs.

Further if Canadian salaries can be respectable so should American ones. You really think the US can have a system full of midlevels and foreign docs? Ya right.
 
There is a lot more screwing than you are aware of.

In healthcare or in general? And as I said-who will continue to go into medicine if things suck enough? For primary care and a number of other specialties, it's already financially irresponsible to go to med school. Makes more sense to go into consulting or be a midlevel.
 
In healthcare or in general? And as I said-who will continue to go into medicine if things suck enough? For primary care and a number of other specialties, it's already financially irresponsible to go to med school. Makes more sense to go into consulting or be a midlevel.

Yet medical school enrollment continues to trend upward. While it may not make financial sense to most of us, remember that these are 20-year-olds who are making decisions about their future careers. They are notoriously naïve and idealistic About financial issues. Beyond that, you will always have people who are interested in healthcare regardless of the financial consequences.
 
Thats not a good response. Lots of employers "can" screw their employees over, but many don't. Look at consulting companies, pharm companies, sales people-they all get bonuses, etc. for goals and what not. Their employers can choose to screw them over but they dont. So "bc they can" is not a good explanation.

Those fields do not have the magnitude of regulations that medicine has and will have. In a normal marketplace, you're right, but legislation can force a certain environment for physicians which is not favorable. That's why many physicians are allowing themselves to be bought out by bigger institutions, retiring early, or trying to go "off the grid" with concierge medicine.

And if things get worse in the medical world, ppl will stop going to medical school. Look at primary care-it's practically devoid of AMGs. If there isn't any serious $$$ in specialties, then less ppl will go into them. Even look at lower paying IM specialties-endo, nephro, ID, etc they are all filled with IMG/FMGs bc of the crap pay. Continue doing that for other specialties and you can say goodbye to AMGs.
You prove my point. Doctors will still be produced, but they will be of lower quality, non-MDs (NPs, PAs..), and FMGs. Most of the best and brightest American students will not be attracted to this crap.
 
Those fields do not have the magnitude of regulations that medicine has and will have. In a normal marketplace, you're right, but legislation can force a certain environment for physicians which is not favorable. That's why many physicians are allowing themselves to be bought out by bigger institutions, retiring early, or trying to go "off the grid" with concierge medicine.


You prove my point. Doctors will still be produced, but they will be of lower quality, non-MDs (NPs, PAs..), and FMGs. Most of the best and brightest American students will not be attracted to this crap.

And that will cause the pendulum to swing back. Midlevels create a prime environment for lawyers, and that not only further increases medical costs, but I have a hard time believing that doctors will start making 50k all of a sudden.

Do you realistically think that the gov will push us enough to have the system collapse in its entirety? I think it's naive to think that the US will simply do away with its healthcare system. I think things will implode, and will go back to a much more pro physician environment. Again, I think it'sa similar situation to what's happened in Canada. Canadian docs were bullied, they said screw it, started leaving, patients had bad outcomes, and then the gov reversed a number of their stupid laws and docs are thriving there.
 
Someone asked why be an employed physician?
and whether the hours are 80/week.
More like at least 60-65 at least, and that is not counting studying, etc. at home.
cardiologists in general do not work 40 hr weeks.
The hours will depend more on where you work (big city versus smaller, big hospital versus smaller one, etc.) than whether in private practice or employed, in my opinion.
There is more security if you start out as being employed...the billing, etc. is so complicated that I would have had no idea how to do it if I had tried to go out on my own.
 
Here is another scenario:
Hospital buys local physician multi-specialty group practice. The founding partners were approaching retirement age and the newer docs decided having the hospital employ them was the way to go, so they all sold out. During the honeymoon, the docs got just what they had before, but when the contracts were up, the new contracts were not exactly as expected.

Top docs (by referrals, revenue production) left the group/refused to sign contracts, leaving less revenue to spread around. The newer docs were then told to take up the slack and bring in more revenue or salaries, vacations, benefits would be cut. When that didn't make up the slack, a year later, the newest round of contracts said a certain percentage of pay was at risk if docs didn't cut the mustard, and oh, by the way, your vacation isn't paid, but you're ahead of where you were because you don't have to pay for coverage when you're off.

Let the buyer beware. If I am forced into a hospital employment situation, the next sound heard will be the sonic boom of me leaving town. I've seen it and I've seen what happens when generalists and specialists alike swoon to the employment siren song.

It may be that O'care and the panels and CMS and its minions are going to break us, but I'd rather be a free enough agent that it's my choice to go along with their programs or not.

As an employee, if the CMS/Ocare/NextVersion decides to cut 30% and the employer says, we can't afford to pay you because of this, so we're cutting your salary, and by the way, you have a 50 mile 2 year restrictive covenant, then you have no choice, and you are screwed. And, by the way, we're making the same profit off of you, as you are now doing more....for less. Life is good, for us the hospital.

Let's all be careful out there. TANSTAAFL.

This is exactly why I do locums work and am free of being under the corporate thumb. My locums company tells me that a lot of new grads are doing locums to check out the job market, go to a site for 2-3 months to really get the feel of how the company is run. Any place who uses locums is hurting for doctors so its almost guaranteed that you would be asked to stay on a permanent basis. I know that every place I have worked as asked me. But most places are in the middle of nowhere and I wouldn't consider it as a permanent location.
 
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Here's some key differences:

Hospital employed (or big organization like Kaiser):
More likely to deliver on money and benefits that the promised.
Also more likely to change your work duties shortly after you join (everyone ends up doing more crappy jobs like inpatient consults than they initially anticipated)

Private practice:
Employer is more inclined to try to keep you happy (e.g. they'll fire employees right away that disrespect you, give you some leeway on work hours, buy you a new computer if you want one, etc.)
They're almost guaranteed to screw you in some way on your contract (promise X but don't deliver), or - perhaps most commonly - in the production bonus.
 
Someone asked why be an employed physician?
and whether the hours are 80/week.
More like at least 60-65 at least, and that is not counting studying, etc. at home.
cardiologists in general do not work 40 hr weeks.
The hours will depend more on where you work (big city versus smaller, big hospital versus smaller one, etc.) than whether in private practice or employed, in my opinion.
There is more security if you start out as being employed...the billing, etc. is so complicated that I would have had no idea how to do it if I had tried to go out on my own.

Wow, 60-65? Yikes.
 
This is exactly why I do locums work and am free of being under the corporate thumb. My locums company tells me that a lot of new grads are doing locums to check out the job market, go to a site for 2-3 months to really get the feel of how the company is run. Any place who uses locums is hurting for doctors so its almost guaranteed that you would be asked to stay on a permanent basis. I know that every place I have worked as asked me. But most places are in the middle of nowhere and I wouldn't consider it as a permanent location.

I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense and I'd agree with you that it seems that locums jobs not only pay better, but they try to accommodate you more as well, in part because they are desperate.
 
Wow, 60-65? Yikes.

Yep, I work at least this much every week, even more when I cover ER. It takes that much time to get your charting done, do all your refills, lab reviews (and do something about the abnormals), radiology test results. I always call the patients with abnormals or serious findings on imaging. Then if you need to round on any inpatients and whatever other problems come up add to that base 40.

When I was salary, I got paid the same for 40, 50, or 60 hours.

As locums I get paid by the hour.

I have NEVER just worked a 40 hour week since becoming an attending.
 
Somebody mentioned this above, but it is worth repeating.

Obamacare will effectively eliminate private practice in the long run. If Obama gets re-elected this year, and I believe he will, you should probably NOT buy into a private practice unless you are the only game in town.

The rules for ACOs are set up to give reimbursement "bonuses" to large ACO networks. Thats now. Once these ACOs are set up and have achieved sufficient market clout, the govt bureaucrats will pull a bait and switch. Instead of being a "bonus" they'll put in a penalty for NOT joining an ACO. It will start out low, probably 2% or 5%, but it will steady work its way upwards until private practices have no choice but to sell out at bargain basement prices to the large ACO networks who will be eager to get a good deal on these practices.
 
Somebody mentioned this above, but it is worth repeating.

Obamacare will effectively eliminate private practice in the long run. If Obama gets re-elected this year, and I believe he will, you should probably NOT buy into a private practice unless you are the only game in town.

The rules for ACOs are set up to give reimbursement "bonuses" to large ACO networks. Thats now. Once these ACOs are set up and have achieved sufficient market clout, the govt bureaucrats will pull a bait and switch. Instead of being a "bonus" they'll put in a penalty for NOT joining an ACO. It will start out low, probably 2% or 5%, but it will steady work its way upwards until private practices have no choice but to sell out at bargain basement prices to the large ACO networks who will be eager to get a good deal on these practices.

You may have a point. What I don't understand is, many people talk like it's a terrible thing to be hospital employed. I've been helping a friend search for GI jobs for example and the salaries being offered for hospital employed positions are insane - I'm talking about 500, 600k guaranteed salaries. (I didn't even know GI's made so much! :)) For other fields, anesthesia, derm, etc, the salaries are also in the 400k+. Either they are fake posts or I'm thinking that salaries are pretty decent for hospital employed positions. No? Am I missing something here? I don't see what's so bad about working in a hospital setting for these types of salaries.
 
You may have a point. What I don't understand is, many people talk like it's a terrible thing to be hospital employed. I've been helping a friend search for GI jobs for example and the salaries being offered for hospital employed positions are insane - I'm talking about 500, 600k guaranteed salaries. (I didn't even know GI's made so much! :)) For other fields, anesthesia, derm, etc, the salaries are also in the 400k+. Either they are fake posts or I'm thinking that salaries are pretty decent for hospital employed positions. No? Am I missing something here? I don't see what's so bad about working in a hospital setting for these types of salaries.

Nothing is bad for many people about being employed by a large entity. What is bad for physicians is when their choice of employment setting, employer, and more, are constrained by gov't rules. Right now, large employers like hospitals and hmo's are forced to compete w/ smaller groups and solo practices of many types, and must offer competitive reimbursment. When they become the only game in town, they will offer a lot less and be able to squeeze a lot more sweat and blood out of physicians.
 
Somebody mentioned this above, but it is worth repeating.

Obamacare will effectively eliminate private practice in the long run. If Obama gets re-elected this year, and I believe he will, you should probably NOT buy into a private practice unless you are the only game in town.

The rules for ACOs are set up to give reimbursement "bonuses" to large ACO networks. Thats now. Once these ACOs are set up and have achieved sufficient market clout, the govt bureaucrats will pull a bait and switch. Instead of being a "bonus" they'll put in a penalty for NOT joining an ACO. It will start out low, probably 2% or 5%, but it will steady work its way upwards until private practices have no choice but to sell out at bargain basement prices to the large ACO networks who will be eager to get a good deal on these practices.

Listening to a fair number of heavy hitters in health policy talk, it's not really going to make a difference who wins in Nov. The horse has left the barn and the big names in healthcare are rushing to form ACOs to try and get ahead of government regulations. The current situation is not sustainable, and fee for service is probably 5-10 years away from disappearing for anyone that has to take insurance. The only place it MAY continue is in the ED, mostly because none of the current ACO models (and there are quite a few) really account for how to reimburse for emergency care, especially out of network care.

The government has basically figured out that they can't control docs on the individual level (they've tried a couple of times and we've either figured out how to overcharge them (pre-managed care) or have just upped our volumes to keep revenue coming in (post-managed care)). However, if they can consolidate the doctors into large organizations that they can then dictate terms to they have a hope of controlling costs by letting the organization figure out how to provide care on a strictly rationed budget instead of it being overtly imposed by the government.

In-patient care will probably become a money-loser as reimbursement tightens and quality measures turn from carrot to stick, so the smart hospital systems are using the cash reserves they built up with their ridiculous charges to buy out or create physician networks. The efficient delivery of outpatient care (and minimization of costly tests, procedures, and in-patient stays) is going to become the main profit center for these systems and you'll probably see hospitals closing frequently as the excess in-patient capacity that exists in many cities will be too costly to maintain. It will be interesting to see what happens to inner-city hospitals, since they should theoretically benefit from increased revenue as their patients get insurance but are also the systems least likely to be able to adapt to an out-patient centered world (think about how long getting seen in any inner-city's specialty clinic takes).
 
Nothing is bad for many people about being employed by a large entity. What is bad for physicians is when their choice of employment setting, employer, and more, are constrained by gov't rules. Right now, large employers like hospitals and hmo's are forced to compete w/ smaller groups and solo practices of many types, and must offer competitive reimbursment. When they become the only game in town, they will offer a lot less and be able to squeeze a lot more sweat and blood out of physicians.

Physicians are really good at squeezing sweat and blood out of themselves, what will change is how well we are reimbursed for doing so. The money in the future is going to be for the people that figure out how to prevent in-patients from bouncing back or ensure patient compliance with BP and DM regimens. And unfortunately there is nothing about our training that guarantees or even suggests that physicians are going to be the ones that figure it out. Or if we do, it's likely going to be co-opted by our employers and if we're lucky we'll end up with some sort of consultant title and a job traveling around showing other systems how to implement the fixes.
 
Yet medical school enrollment continues to trend upward. While it may not make financial sense to most of us, remember that these are 20-year-olds who are making decisions about their future careers. They are notoriously naïve and idealistic About financial issues. Beyond that, you will always have people who are interested in healthcare regardless of the financial consequences.

Tbh, medicine in the future will probably be made up of naive idealists, Asian/Indian prestige hunters, and bored sadomasochists. That's what you get when you remove any financial incentive to become a physician.
 
Nothing is bad for many people about being employed by a large entity. What is bad for physicians is when their choice of employment setting, employer, and more, are constrained by gov't rules. Right now, large employers like hospitals and hmo's are forced to compete w/ smaller groups and solo practices of many types, and must offer competitive reimbursment. When they become the only game in town, they will offer a lot less and be able to squeeze a lot more sweat and blood out of physicians.

So in your opinion, doctors will be paid a pittance and worked like dogs? I ask-who in their right mind is going to go into medicine then?
 
So in your opinion, doctors will be paid a pittance and worked like dogs? I ask-who in their right mind is going to go into medicine then?

Likely, the tide will EVENTUALLY turn so that it is a less prestigious profession... but that's going to take a long time. As referenced by WS, most 18-20 year-olds can't really wrap their minds around: the current average debt load of a medical school graduate, the fact that interest continues to accrue while working in residency/fellowship, the public's diminishing respect for the sacrifices of medical training, and the uncertainty of reimbursement holding at a level that allows one to pay back the debt load AND maintain a standard of living which is halfway reasonable considering the years of pain required to become a fully-trained physician.

If the worst of the speculations become reality, for awhile there will still be those of us who would be "trapped" in the profession. While medical school enrollment might eventually begin to trend down, it will take awhile for the reality of the situation to catch up with the aspirations of the hopeful pre-meds.
 
Likely, the tide will EVENTUALLY turn so that it is a less prestigious profession... but that's going to take a long time. As referenced by WS, most 18-20 year-olds can't really wrap their minds around: the current average debt load of a medical school graduate, the fact that interest continues to accrue while working in residency/fellowship, the public's diminishing respect for the sacrifices of medical training, and the uncertainty of reimbursement holding at a level that allows one to pay back the debt load AND maintain a standard of living which is halfway reasonable considering the years of pain required to become a fully-trained physician.

If the worst of the speculations become reality, for awhile there will still be those of us who would be "trapped" in the profession. While medical school enrollment might eventually begin to trend down, it will take awhile for the reality of the situation to catch up with the aspirations of the hopeful pre-meds.

In all honesty, I find that hard to believe. Given that we are in the US, this scenario is very unrealistic in my humble opinion. Maybe if we lived in South America, or Africa or the Middle east, sure. But even Canada with its socialized medicine pays doctors more than most other professionals, and the same is with most of Europe. Heck, my dad was a physician in a "third world country" and docs there overall were paid more than the average population. So the idea that medicine somehow will become like janitorial work or something seems unlikely. In the rare event that that were to happen, you'd have less people going into medicine. I think there already is a trend of those who can leave medicine of doing so which is likely only going to become exacerbated with any cuts in reimbursement. Sure, it may hit those who are 5-10 years in their career and cant do much about it, but these days for anything other than 200k + medicine is not worthwhile given how many jobs make 6 figures plus these days.
 
Just as the government has destroyed many former industies, my feeling is that healthcare is soon to follow.

Remember the US once was the leader in technology, science and industry. You cannot say that anymore.

Why would the government mess with the world's most advance healthcare?

You have some of the best and brightest making big investments and sacrifice with the eventual monetary payoff. Perhaps by the 3rd year of practice they can see a positive income.

But now the best and brightest i see moving into the investment banking/ financial field. And being discouraged by the hard work and limited payoff of medicine.
 
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