PRN Opioids and UDT

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Dipipanone

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I’m interested in how folks are handling UDTs in conjunction with low-dose PRN opiates. I mostly abstain from prescribing but do have a small population of patients on COT. I feel like I’m well within guidelines, and of this small population receiving opioids, the majority are prescribed on a PRN basis and are maintained under 40MME. Saw a patient earlier this morning on hydro/APAP 5/325. Patient is receiving #45 every 2 months PRN for severe OA. Long time patient with no red-flags. His last two UDTs (LC/MS) came back negative for hydro. Due diligence is being performed and I have no reason to suspect aberrancy. Obviously, given the dosage and frequency, this is not entirely unexpected. None-the-less, I can’t help but feel that this looks somewhat suspect. I’m doing my best to ascertain time of last dose, but this still leaves a bit of a gray area due to metabolic differences etc. I’m interested in how others are handling low-dose PRN opioid patients and UDTs. Am I being overly paranoid?
 
make sure you physically look at the pills, too, and document that they are the same form and shape. just counting them are not enough. but yes, spot call, bring pills in for pill count and UDS within 24 hours.
 
There are a lot of good reasons the UDS could be negative, but state inspectors don't listen to those. What you do depends on your comfort level with explaining why you didn't address the negative UDS if he's caught selling pills.
 
I’m a FM pcp who inherited several geriatric patients on very low dose opiates that they don’t always fill monthly since some months they just don’t need it. They take more if being super active, less if the weather is too bad to go out. Those people seem to be a very low risk for diversion.

New thing I’m dealing with is Walmart has a new policy that they can get 16 pills (or maybe a certain number of days worth of prescriptions) if they don’t fill the prescription every single month on time. For my 90 year olds they’ve taken this to mean they can’t have the opiate medications and they should take high dose ibuprofen instead..... they tell me about this when I see them for their routine controlled substance follow up visit.
 
I’m interested in how folks are handling UDTs in conjunction with low-dose PRN opiates. I mostly abstain from prescribing but do have a small population of patients on COT. I feel like I’m well within guidelines, and of this small population receiving opioids, the majority are prescribed on a PRN basis and are maintained under 40MME. Saw a patient earlier this morning on hydro/APAP 5/325. Patient is receiving #45 every 2 months PRN for severe OA. Long time patient with no red-flags. His last two UDTs (LC/MS) came back negative for hydro. Due diligence is being performed and I have no reason to suspect aberrancy. Obviously, given the dosage and frequency, this is not entirely unexpected. None-the-less, I can’t help but feel that this looks somewhat suspect. I’m doing my best to ascertain time of last dose, but this still leaves a bit of a gray area due to metabolic differences etc. I’m interested in how others are handling low-dose PRN opioid patients and UDTs. Am I being overly paranoid?

I would plan to call in a few days after filling rx. If more than one of the pills are gone there is no way it should be negative. I’ve had a couple patients in a similar scenario and would occasionally come up as negative, but they were filling 30 tabs every 3 months. 45 every 2 months seems a bit fishy to me to be negative and sounds like diversion.
 
Maybe have your patient fill out a monthly pain diary and include pills taken on which day. When they show you that they took one yesterday you can expect a positive UDT if you do a confirmation test aka quantitative with gc / mass spec
 
I’m interested in how folks are handling UDTs in conjunction with low-dose PRN opiates. I mostly abstain from prescribing but do have a small population of patients on COT. I feel like I’m well within guidelines, and of this small population receiving opioids, the majority are prescribed on a PRN basis and are maintained under 40MME. Saw a patient earlier this morning on hydro/APAP 5/325. Patient is receiving #45 every 2 months PRN for severe OA. Long time patient with no red-flags. His last two UDTs (LC/MS) came back negative for hydro. Due diligence is being performed and I have no reason to suspect aberrancy. Obviously, given the dosage and frequency, this is not entirely unexpected. None-the-less, I can’t help but feel that this looks somewhat suspect. I’m doing my best to ascertain time of last dose, but this still leaves a bit of a gray area due to metabolic differences etc. I’m interested in how others are handling low-dose PRN opioid patients and UDTs. Am I being overly paranoid?
It all depends on the context. The lower you go on dose, and frequency and duration of action, the more likely you are to have appropriate, but negative UDSs. Prior to sending the UDS, if they tell you, "I had a good past few days and my last hydro 5 was 36 hrs ago," then that's right on the edge of the detection window (depending on the lab you're using), and either a positive or negative would be appropriate. Or, the low dose prn patient who missed his last appointment due to the hurricane, couldn't come to the appointment, is a week past his 30 day refill, ran out of meds for a week and told you so. That's an example of someone not getting extra rx's to divert. It's someone out of medications with no meds to divert. Both UDS's are negative. But there's a big difference and the chart must make that clear.

Make sure you document that. If, on the other hand he tells you, "I took it 4 hours ago" and he tests negative, then something isn't right.

In that case, you probably do need to do a random pill count, require them to come in by days end for a pill count and repeat UDS, or you discontinue opiates. If they say they're out of town or give some other excuse, tell them to go to their nearest pharmacy with their pills, have the pharmacist count them and call you. No excuses. More than a few hours, gives them a chance to rent or borrow pills and renders your surprise pill count worthless. I also agree you need to do a pill ID with each pill count, because they can easily bring in dummy pills (tylenol, random white pill, etc) and unless you check what it is, you can be easily fooled. The epocrates app, has an easy way to do this. When I'm to the point of requiring a random pill count, I'm already 99% likely to discontinue prescribing and it's the patient's job to do everything perfectly to win my trust back. Anything that's off, or any excuses offered, equals discontinuation of opiates. It's right in their signed prescribing agreement that they agree to pills counts and discontinued prescribing if they're unable to comply.

It's all about context and what you document. If it's reasonable and appropriate, and you've documented why, you're likely fine. If not, then you're not. The worst thing you can do, is document an inconsistent UDS (unexplained negative, illicit, etc), ignore it, and keep prescribing.

If you're uncomfortable, use all your tools to tighten the leash until they either make you comfortable that all is kosher, or until they make it clear it's time to stop prescribing. One of the two will happen. The worst thing is to sit there unsure, uncomfortable, and to continue prescribing in a state of uncertainty. You must tighten the monitoring until taking one of the two forks in the road (prescribe or stop) is obvious and justified. Then you then take that path, and document in detail why what you're doing is 100% reasonable, and beyond question by a reasonable person. Once you stop, you never, ever, ever, restart in that patient.

When in doubt, stop prescribing. Opiates are not oxygen.
 
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This happens in our clinic occasionally. Document when last dose was taken. Is UDS immunoassay or GCMS/LCMS? Ensure pill count is congruent with how patient states they take opioids. Pill count at every visit. I don’t assume anything. Does the objective evidence support the subjective narrative? What is their risk? Previous aberrancies? Have they adhered to the plan of care thus far? Imaging, emg/ncs, pain psych, PT, functional improvement, injections, chronic pain self management class.... Document everything. If there is aberrant behavior you will catch it eventually. Sometimes I will just increase scrutiny, change visit timing, reduce #pills if continuous pill count overages.
 
Aspirin, ibuprofen, or naproxen are just as potent as hydrocodone 5mg, and some studies suggest acetaminophen is also equivalent. So why prescribe it at all, especially considering there is no literature support for doing so, and there is literature that shows it is no more effective than other treatments: Effect of Opioid vs Nonopioid Medications on Pain-Related Function in Patients With Chronic Back Pain or Hip or Knee Osteoarthritis Pain: The SPACE... - PubMed - NCBI
CKD? That's what'll make me reach for ultram/norco in my older OA patients when the 650mg TID Tylenol stops working and they aren't surgical candidates.
 
CKD? That's what'll make me reach for ultram/norco in my older OA patients when the 650mg TID Tylenol stops working and they aren't surgical candidates.

Let's add HTN, MI risk, ulcers, and bleeding to CKD. Also add in RFA and PT, occasional visco or CSI. Bracing occasionally. PRP or stem cells if available. You do all the stuff within your armamentarium and sometimes that includes a low dose opiate in selected pts.
 
IT would be easier if I worked at the VA and the article Algos posted was with applicability. Weird. I do not work at the VAMC. The patients I see are older, sicker, or were already on opiates and functioning well in the community.
 
Let's add HTN, MI risk, ulcers, and bleeding to CKD. Also add in RFA and PT, occasional visco or CSI. Bracing occasionally. PRP or stem cells if available. You do all the stuff within your armamentarium and sometimes that includes a low dose opiate in selected pts.
HTN - meh. MI risk - as long as no pre-existing CAD and other risk factors optimized, meh. Ulcers add a PPI/H2 blocker and meh. Now that all said, as an FP my comfort level with all of that is likely different from y'all's here.

I should have clarified that by the time I'm talking opioids we've already exhausted steroids, visco, probably already going to PT. Not really impressed with PRP/stem cells for OA nor do I believe we really have anyone reputable in town that does them yet.
 
HTN - meh. MI risk - as long as no pre-existing CAD and other risk factors optimized, meh. Ulcers add a PPI/H2 blocker and meh. Now that all said, as an FP my comfort level with all of that is likely different from y'all's here.

I should have clarified that by the time I'm talking opioids we've already exhausted steroids, visco, probably already going to PT. Not really impressed with PRP/stem cells for OA nor do I believe we really have anyone reputable in town that does them yet.

MI risk is meh? You're also wrong about PRP/SC therapy for OA.
 
HTN - meh. MI risk - as long as no pre-existing CAD and other risk factors optimized, meh. Ulcers add a PPI/H2 blocker and meh. Now that all said, as an FP my comfort level with all of that is likely different from y'all's here.

I should have clarified that by the time I'm talking opioids we've already exhausted steroids, visco, probably already going to PT. Not really impressed with PRP/stem cells for OA nor do I believe we really have anyone reputable in town that does them yet.

As a PMR/Pain doc, we look at you as a killer of the elderly when you recommend NSAIDs to anyone over 60. 31% increased risk of an MI with 30days of Motrin.

What drug kills more Americans: Ultram or NSAIDs?
 
smoking. and EtOH.


im not a fan of NSAID in any age group, but one drug is available OTC, for which we have no control over...
 
Then why does no one in town do them? We have 3 ortho groups and 2 pain management groups.

I don't know dude; you should go ask them. Some possible explanations include lack of training or volume of pts with the ability to pay. The surgeons would rather replace the joint btw...not great fans of orthobiologics those joint guys...

As to whether or not PRP or stem cell treatments work for OA pain...They do.

NSAIDs are given by PCPs every day in this country, and I am wonder if those same PCPs ever did a GI rotation as a resident. Butt blood filling a trashcan in the ED and on 4th floor. I won't forget that.

I also...read stuff like journals and see rates of NSAID adverse effects and wonder WTF gets in the head of someone who gives Mobic 15mg to the cigarette smoking hypertensive with a stent and previous GI bleeds.

NSAIDS are not meh to me, but Norco 5/325mg BID surely is IN SELECTED PTS.
 
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I don't know dude; you should go ask them. Some possible explanations include lack of training or volume of pts with the ability to pay. The surgeons would rather replace the joint btw...not great fans of orthobiologics those joint guys...

As to whether or not PRP or stem cell treatments work for OA pain...They do.

Seems like the jury is pretty out even among the pain management community...

1. self pay only
2. data is insufficient to back up the contention that PRP/SC helps for OA. there is no high level evidence yet for said treatment.

NSAIDs are given by PCPs every day in this country, and I am wonder if those same PCPs ever did a GI rotation as a resident. Butt blood filling a trashcan in the ED and on 4th floor. I won't forget that.

I also...read stuff like journals and see rates of NSAID adverse effects and wonder WTF gets in the head of someone who gives Mobic 15mg to the cigarette smoking hypertensive with a stent and previous GI bleeds.

NSAIDS are not meh to me, but Norco 5/325mg BID surely is IN SELECTED PTS.
If it makes you feel any better, I haven't written above mobic 7.5 since residency.

Y'all are acting like I have no idea what goes on with my patients. Like they're all having GI bleeds and MIs by the boat load and I'm not aware of it. I ask about stomach ulcers, stents/CABG, and kidney disease on every new patient I get. I then make a note of it because that kind of stuff shows up on areas other than NSAID use. I keep an eye on blood pressure and cholesterol. I work with them to stop smoking. My long term NSAID patients come in every 3 months 60 and older and 6 months younger than that for a BMP and I ask questions for CV disease and GI issues. You know, being a doctor.

Do all PCPs do this? Of course not. Just like a fair number of pain management doctors do 3 level bilateral injections or give 200+MED opioid prescriptions.
 
Seems like the jury is pretty out even among the pain management community...




If it makes you feel any better, I haven't written above mobic 7.5 since residency.

Y'all are acting like I have no idea what goes on with my patients. Like they're all having GI bleeds and MIs by the boat load and I'm not aware of it. I ask about stomach ulcers, stents/CABG, and kidney disease on every new patient I get. I then make a note of it because that kind of stuff shows up on areas other than NSAID use. I keep an eye on blood pressure and cholesterol. I work with them to stop smoking. My long term NSAID patients come in every 3 months 60 and older and 6 months younger than that for a BMP and I ask questions for CV disease and GI issues. You know, being a doctor.

Do all PCPs do this? Of course not. Just like a fair number of pain management doctors do 3 level bilateral injections or give 200+MED opioid prescriptions.

When you "meh" several legitimate concerns raised about NSAIDs it is hard to know what to think about your practice.
 
Yeah the same way I meh diabetes and high cholesterol, something very routine to me so not a big deal.

Me and you see a different pt population in real life, and I see many questionable pain decisions made by PCPs in real life, while I have a PCP here on an internet forum saying "meh" about NSAID risk. So whatever dude...

I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you that PRP or SC work for OA pain. I truly do not care enough to argue about it.
 
Me and you see a different pt population in real life, and I see many questionable pain decisions made by PCPs in real life, while I have a PCP here on an internet forum saying "meh" about NSAID risk. So whatever dude...

I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you that PRP or SC work for OA pain. I truly do not care enough to argue about it.

Clearly you do care enough, spending the time writing the above.

Anyway, present the literature to make your argument and defend it. Data talks louder than words.
 
How do we know our patients taking prn opioids are more functional? What tests do we perform to demonstrate such? The answer is we don't- it is sheer speculation based on an unsubstantiated generalized statement by the recipients that the opioids "help them remain functional". Of course our knee jerk defense for opioid prescribing is to use the argument of CKD and the horrible malicious effects of NSAIDs, and claim opioids are the only viable answer. But of course there are other simple proven treatments that have no effects on the kidneys (A Randomized, Double Blind, Placebo Controlled, Parallel-Group Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of Curene® versus Placebo in Reducing Symptoms of Knee OA). There is also no evidence that the use of 45 ibuprofen (half life 2 hours) over two months is any more deleterious to the patient (including kidneys) than hydrocodone (half life 3 hours). Published renal dysfunction studies due to NSAIDs are based on chronic long term usage, frequently at high dosage, or high dose acute usage, and using long half life NSAIDs.
Also consider NNT studies for acute administration of low dose opioids- the results are not better than acetaminophen or NSAIDs.
 
How do we know our patients taking prn opioids are more functional? What tests do we perform to demonstrate such? The answer is we don't- it is sheer speculation based on an unsubstantiated generalized statement by the recipients that the opioids "help them remain functional". Of course our knee jerk defense for opioid prescribing is to use the argument of CKD and the horrible malicious effects of NSAIDs, and claim opioids are the only viable answer. But of course there are other simple proven treatments that have no effects on the kidneys (A Randomized, Double Blind, Placebo Controlled, Parallel-Group Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of Curene® versus Placebo in Reducing Symptoms of Knee OA). There is also no evidence that the use of 45 ibuprofen (half life 2 hours) over two months is any more deleterious to the patient (including kidneys) than hydrocodone (half life 3 hours). Published renal dysfunction studies due to NSAIDs are based on chronic long term usage, frequently at high dosage, or high dose acute usage, and using long half life NSAIDs.
Also consider NNT studies for acute administration of low dose opioids- the results are not better than acetaminophen or NSAIDs.


20+ more articles on risks. Daily use and i would take ultram for myself over nsaid. 1-2 pills per week is good enough for me for nsaids. More than that increases risk in my elderly population
 
All the articles on risk of NSAIDs do not take into account prn occasional use. The risk of NSAIDs used in this manner is most likely overblown in the extreme. Not everyone takes prn medications everyday. However undoubtedly low dose prn hydrocodone (or tramadol) is much less risky than high dose round the clock oxycontin
 
All the articles on risk of NSAIDs do not take into account prn occasional use. The risk of NSAIDs used in this manner is most likely overblown in the extreme. Not everyone takes prn medications everyday. However undoubtedly low dose prn hydrocodone (or tramadol) is much less risky than high dose round the clock oxycontin
“Oh, I only take the oxys when I really need them.” (Six times a day)
 
All the articles on risk of NSAIDs do not take into account prn occasional use. The risk of NSAIDs used in this manner is most likely overblown in the extreme. Not everyone takes prn medications everyday. However undoubtedly low dose prn hydrocodone (or tramadol) is much less risky than high dose round the clock oxycontin

Norco 10 tid vs diclofenac 75 bid.

Patient profile: 70 y/o with controlled htn on meds. DM on metformin and trulicity, crestor with ldl 130. Prior MI with remote stent. No thinners, just baby ASA.

Pick your poison.
 
Norco 10 tid vs diclofenac 75 bid.

Patient profile: 70 y/o with controlled htn on meds. DM on metformin and trulicity, crestor with ldl 130. Prior MI with remote stent. No thinners, just baby ASA.

Pick your poison.
unequal analogy. diclofenac 75 bid is full treatment dose.

compare the diclofenac 75 bid to, say, Norco 10/325, 2 pills every 4 hours as needed, MDD 12.... now what is your answer?
 
unequal analogy. diclofenac 75 bid is full treatment dose.

compare the diclofenac 75 bid to, say, Norco 10/325, 2 pills every 4 hours as needed, MDD 12.... now what is your answer?

You're smarter than this...There is no "treatment dose" of opiate. The treatment dose is "as little as possible."
 
unequal analogy. diclofenac 75 bid is full treatment dose.

compare the diclofenac 75 bid to, say, Norco 10/325, 2 pills every 4 hours as needed, MDD 12.... now what is your answer?

We have different ideas of full treatment dose, and you have unusual concept of max dose Tylenol for chronic use.
 
You're smarter than this...There is no "treatment dose" of opiate. The treatment dose is "as little as possible."
ask your patients what they think a treatment dose of opioids are. its not "as little as possible", rather "how much can I get"

point is - don't make analogies comparing medications if the "units" are different.
 
ask your patients what they think a treatment dose of opioids are. its not "as little as possible", rather "how much can I get"

point is - don't make analogies comparing medications if the "units" are different.

"As little as possible" is defined by you, not the patient. You simply can not compare BID diclofenac 75mg to 20mg of hydrocodone Q4H. That is an absurd comparison on several levels with 120 MEQ vs BID NSAID. You took the analogy and ran with it, and you know good and well no one here is talking about that much hydrocodone. A frail pt with chronic pain using 10-30 MEQ is one thing, but 120 is another thing entirely.

What is worse...120 MEQ of hydrocodone or 75mg diclofenac Q4H? That's the analogy you meant to say.
 
Geez guys. Everything in medicine has risks/benefits. Whether that be medications, procedures, surgery, whatever. Learn about your patient and give them the treatment that is most likely to have a beneficial result while minimizing the harm. I give chronic NSAIDs to people all the time, just like I give chronic opiates and interventional procedures to people all the time. It depends what is the best option for that individual person.
 
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