Problem based learning (PBL) information needed

[eg77]

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Hello,
I'm an undergrad applying to med schools and I have a question regarding PBL to any one who is enrolled in a school that utilizes it.

So one of the schools I'm applying to is the founder of PBL (McMaster in Canada) and they're really big on finding out if you're right for this curriculum. I'm wondering if anyone has any links to the pros and cons of this type of Medical education. I'm particularly interested to know what makes a student suitable for PBL since this med school's entire program is based on it. One of their questions is: "how are you suitable for PBL?"

Any suggestions or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Napoleon1801]

Hello,
I'm an undergrad applying to med schools and I have a question regarding PBL to any one who is enrolled in a school that utilizes it.

So one of the schools I'm applying to is the founder of PBL (McMaster in Canada) and they're really big on finding out if you're right for this curriculum. I'm wondering if anyone has any links to the pros and cons of this type of Medical education. I'm particularly interested to know what makes a student suitable for PBL since this med school's entire program is based on it. One of their questions is: "how are you suitable for PBL?"

Any suggestions or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

U. of Oklahoma does some PBL's. The only diff is that you learn the same information through a vignette of an interaction with a patient (usually televised). I don't think its that astounding of a form of learning seeing as how schools who do PBL vs those who don't have the same numbers in passing the boards. I would think anyone who could hack it in a traditional med school could do it in a PBL situation too. From what I've seen of it, it's not the most outstanding experience I've ever had, but it is somewhat amusing since you get to pretend you're a doc for an hour or so. So I really don't see how there would be people who were 'right' for med school and not 'right' for PBL. I think the school is just feeding you a line to promote their program and make it look that much more 'innovative' than other med schools you're applying to.

 

[Rendar5]

EDIT:

Ok, since i'm not at a PBL school myself, I can only tell u what i've heard from a friend who's now a 1st year at one such school. If you want to learn on your own w/ a lot of autonomy and self-directed learning, then u might enjoy PBL. But realize that there are stupid people (and smart people) at every school who will say and think really stupid things from time to time. They might hijack conferences w/ things that are completely off-base and will lead u in the wrong direction. You're gonna have to accept that if u go to a PBL. And just hope that the majority of the time people who really do their work and are smart enough not to go in really wrong directions control the conference.

From my own experiences w/ it (we mix in a bit of it w/ neurology so that we can learn differential dx), for it to work, u need a really open-mind and never get so focused on investigating one direction of a problem. Cause you could be going in the wrong direction.

As for whether it's better or not overall? I agree w/ the above poster. Not really worse or better. I personally prefer what my school does (mostly lectures and cases, with some PBL style cases), so that i don't really miss out on the advantages of all 3 things.

Also keep in mind, regardless if you do PBL or not, a lot of the learning you will do on your own and be responsible for. That's the reality of studying medicine.

 

[nockamura]

We do lots of PBL here at Wake. The type of person that does well is a person with a strong science background and who is fairly independent and friendly. Since small groups of people are involved, you get to know your classmates very well and there is a group component of your final grade so it also fosters cooperation and not competition. If you tend to dominate in the group, you will learn that it's not how much you speak, but the quality of what you say that matters. Yes, there are people you will not get along with, and there are those that you will feel very comfortable around, but that's how it is outside of school so you might as well get used to it now.

 

[Megalofyia]

The type of person that does well is a person with a strong science background and who is fairly independent and friendly.

[RANT]Yeah I second this. If you dont have a good science background then your gonna spend a **** load of time playing catch up as your trying to learn a combination of first and second year stuff. You will feel frustrated and some less patient group members may get annoyed with having to "dumb" down learning objectives waiting for the person with the weak background catch up. [/RANT]

 

[(nicedream)]

I'm in an entirely PBL curriculum, and I have to disagree with the sentiment that you need to have a strong science background - it's not an issue at all in our program anyway. I don't see how any different background would be needed in PBL than in lecture or any other curriculum - you're studying the same material regardless. One thing that would help someone is to have a strong clinical background - already being familiar with lab tests and procedures makes you look like a stud during the first semester when nobody else knows how to proceed with a pt. But that all evens out after a semester.
Basically, PBL is great if you dislike lectures. Personally, lectures are a complete waste of time for me. I like moving through material on my own - I'd rather study a case or read a book than have someone talk at me. Others feel differently and would prefer lecture. Another great thing about PBL is you get really proficient at clinical medicine early on in your medical education - by the beginning of 2nd year you have a very good familiarity with histories and physicals, differential diagnoses, and lab tests.
The only downside I can think of with PBL is that at times, with some of the more difficult material such as biochemistry, you can feel a little lost studying it entirely on your own. My school offers adjunct lectures on such topics. In addition, you have a faculty facilitator who is either a clinician offering clinical pearls, or a PhD delving into the basic sciences and their application to clinical medicine.

 

[Anka]

Some things that might make you less than cut out for PBL:

1. You get impatient at having to explain something to the slowest person in the group... for the tenth time.
2. You get impatient at having to sit there and listen to someone else explain something to the slowest person in the group... for the tenth time
3. You get annoyed when you do your work, and other people stop doing their work because they were out partying last night
4. You are there to learn as much as possible as efficiently as possible. Turns out there's a reason why didactics have been used for thousands of years -- it's an incredibly efficient way of handing down information. Having everyone look it up in twenty different textbooks year after year is less efficient
5. You recognize that the whole point of the first two years of medical school is to build a large fund of knowledge, rather than to pretend to be a doctor

I'm sure other people can think of some others.

Anka

 

[(nicedream)]

Some things that might make you less than cut out for PBL:

1. You get impatient at having to explain something to the slowest person in the group... for the tenth time.
2. You get impatient at having to sit there and listen to someone else explain something to the slowest person in the group... for the tenth time
3. You get annoyed when you do your work, and other people stop doing their work because they were out partying last night
4. You are there to learn as much as possible as efficiently as possible. Turns out there's a reason why didactics have been used for thousands of years -- it's an incredibly efficient way of handing down information. Having everyone look it up in twenty different textbooks year after year is less efficient
5. You recognize that the whole point of the first two years of medical school is to build a large fund of knowledge, rather than to pretend to be a doctor

I'm sure other people can think of some others.

Anka

You are misunderstanding how PBL works. PBL sessions are not for learning material. They are for establishing learning issues which you read about on your own. You meet for a couple hours two times a week to move through the cases. You have a guy with hepatitis, outside the session you read about liver phys, liver path, hep. micro, hep. pharm, liver biochem. The preparation or knowledge of individuals does not effect other individuals, and in my opinion, it's a much more efficient way of learning because it is on your own time and own terms.

 

[eg77]

This is awesome you guys...It's very helpful to hear different opinions on this topic. Anymore thoughts?

 

[eg77]

This is awesome you guys...It's very helpful to hear different opinions on this topic. Anymore thoughts?

 

[Megalofyia]

EDIT:

I can only tell u what i've heard from a "friend" who's now a 1st year at one such school.

This is cute Rendar; " a 'friend'" ... muahahahahaha... So can other people see this friend too?


I try to keep focused by using USMLE study guides as an outline. I have the kaplan lecture review books that are invaluable to figuring out which direction to go with a case.

I must say that just as annoying as the person who doesnt' know what a cell is the person who has PhD level knowledge of a topic and wants to delve into the fine minutia of a topic.

I'm not sure that your tolerance level of other people is so much an issue in weather PBL is right for you or not because I know that in a traditional setting I'd still get annoyed with classmates that did stupid things. I think what makes the difference is the ability to remain professional. Because I get annoyed with someone doesnt' mean I dont like them and get along with them as friends outside of class time.

When it comes down to it anyone could do PBL if they realize it's not a way to get out of doing work just because you dont have scheduled time all day every day. If you like to make up your own assignments and want to be your own teacher and have say in which direction your ready to go in to learn a new topic then PBL is great like that.

 

[Rendar5]

Honestly, a lot of people will talk about how PBL is so great for the autonomy in learning and how clinical it is. Well, at most schools that I know of where the majority of the real learning is autonomous, on one's own time and terms. You just gotta want to do it that way. Half the people at my school dont' really attend lectures and still learn all the material.

I agree that it's not so much that you need a good science background for PBL as you need a good clinical background. So that it doesn't take 2 sessions to get past what a type I hypersensitivity reaction is and figure out what histamine does (but don't worry, if it's not you, then someone else might do that). Stuff like this'll happen anywhere you go. But this particular brand of stupidity is more likely to appear in PBL. go to a different school and u'll get some other brand of stupidity in the forefront.

If you really want practically no constraint and just want to leave all the non-clinical medical crap to ur own learning at ur own pace in ur own order u might like PBL. If you just enjoy a lot of autonomy but would like some sorta guidance to lean back on from time to time, then any school is good, PBL or not. If you don't learn from lectures, don't go to them. (I avoid most of them except the ones which are very clinically oriented.)

 

[ambai]

just thinking out aloud...I'm a med 3 student in the Pacific region and mahn our PBL is soooo ancient. i wish we had televized cases rather than the usual typed out triggers.