Problems getting (good) LOR from academic advisor?

[crazycatlady]

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[dyachei]

I'll be applying to vet schools my first time this coming cycle, and it's annoying to see how many schools want a letter of recommendation/evaluation from your academic advisor. (Tufts is one - I feel like it's a longshot, but I'd love to do their DVM/MPH program.)

I'm attending a large school, and I have barely had contact with my advisor. I knew the classes I needed to take to fulfill most vet school's pre-reqs before I ever registered for my first class, and I used the university's web site to figure out when those classes are offered and in which order they must be taken. On the few occasions when I have had a question, my advisor responded as though we've never met before. (Not blaming her, she has a lot of undergrads to manage.) From what I've seen, the students who require the most academic advising appointments, and thus forge the deepest bonds with advisors, seem to be the most disorganized and indecisive students. Looking at schools that require LORs from advisors, I now feel like I'm being punished for not needing help planning my degree.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation with applying to schools that require an LOR from an advisor? (I'm realize I'd need to contact vet schools individually to see if I could substitute an additional LOR from a vet or professor, but I'm curious if others have experienced this.) I guess I could try to artificially snuggle up to an advisor and pretend I need their help with everything I do in the next few months, but that feels like an odd use of my time.

It doesn't always have to be your advisor. Is there a professor you have a good relationship with? That usually fulfills that role

 

[Lab Vet]

From what I've seen, the students who require the most academic advising appointments, and thus forge the deepest bonds with advisors, seem to be the most disorganized and indecisive students. Looking at schools that require LORs from advisors, I now feel like I'm being punished for not needing help planning my degree.

I guess I could try to artificially snuggle up to an advisor and pretend I need their help with everything I do in the next few months, but that feels like an odd use of my time.

I attended a large, land grant school for my undergrad education, and knew my adviser(s) incredibly well. I was not a disorganized student, and came to love these people on a professional and personal level. I'm currently 34 years old and was admitted to vet school during the 2014 application cycle. I graduated from undergrad in 2001. When I informed my undergrad advisers that I had been admitted, they were over the moon happy for me. I still have solid, positive relationships with these folks- 13 years after my graduation. My undergrad department was like my family- a home away from home. Their influence will always be with me, and will never be forgotten. Based upon my experience, I 100% disagree with your assertions stated above.

Yes, I did apply to schools that required an adviser LOR. I attended graduate school, so my LOR had to come from my graduate adviser. However, I completed my graduate degree in 2009 (5 years ago). Again, I still have solid, positive relationships with my graduate adviser and associated faculty. He was pleased as punch that I was applying to veterinary school, and was more than happy to write the letter. To demonstrate to the veterinary schools that I also possessed academic prowess during my undergrad years, I also included a letter from an undergrad instructor (mind you, he was not faculty at the time- he was a teaching assistant running a physiology laboratory). This individual recruited me for a research position in a laboratory which ended up being the location where I completed my undergrad honors thesis. He and I are very good friends to this day.

A large university does not preclude one from having absolutely stellar relationships with faculty, graduate students, and staff. Secondly, there's much more to advising relationships than choosing a class schedule and understanding how to fill out the VMCAS application. I'm often asked whether or not I think that undergrad prepared me for the working world. I respond with the following: my undergrad education expanded my mind, exposed me to new perspectives, and taught me how to think. I learned how to perform critical functions (i.e. the actual 'tasks') of my various jobs in the workforce, not in undergrad classes. My advisers taught me about life and science, rolling with the punches and getting up again after a failure.

Anyone can schedule classes out of a course catalog.

 

[cowgirla]

My advisor was a butthead who told me - my first semester of undergrad, the first time I met him- not to bother with a pre-vet track because I didn't have what it takes to get into vet school. Oh, how I wish he hadn't retired, because I would LOVE to send him a graduation announcement now.

Needless to say, I didn't ask him for a letter and only saw him when absolutely necessary for a signature or whatever. None of the schools I applied to had an issue with me having a letter from my biochem professor.

 

[crazycatlady]

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[dyachei]

dyachei: Some vet schools do require an advisor, not just an advisor or professor, but I haven't gotten to where I've asked if they'll accept a substitute.

Lab Vet: Good for you if your undergrad advisors changed your life and made your brain explode with joyful rainbows, but that's not the relationship everyone needs or wants to have with an academic advisor. I'm 30, I'm not going to college to discover "who I really am" or all that typical teenage college stuff, I'm going to school to accomplish a precise goal because I already know who I am and what I want. I resent your argument that I'm doing college wrong because I'm not emotionally bonded to some administrative worker to whom I was randomly assigned. To each their own, and there's no need to look down on people who don't love school employees as though they were family.

I get that, CCL, but you should ask. because you won't get the letter you need with that kind of relationship. Note that I said not always (which means that sometimes you have to...)

 

[crazycatlady]

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[DVMDream]

Umm, you do realize that dyachei and cowgirla basically gave you the same answer, the only difference being that cowgirla included a little story at the beginning.

Also, LabVet never said you were horrible for not having those awesome relationships, she just took offense to your condescending tone that you are better than those students who did have good relationships with academic advisors.

If you are going to ask people for help, you need to be appreciative of what everyone has to say and not just what you are hoping to hear from people. Dyachei gave a good response and you were unappreciative and rude after. LabVet took offense to your condescending attitude and then you continued to have that attitude towards her afterwards when she really did not say anything rude to you, she just told you her experience and that she took offense to your statements.

Next time you ask for help, be more gracious to those who respond. And if you post something on an internet forum, especially if you have a condescending tone or make broad generalizations about a group of people be ready for there to be those who do not agree with you or take offense to that to respond to your statements.

 

[crazycatlady]

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[DVMDream]

I've only been curt towards Lab Vet, who gave me some overly long cryface story that implies I'm a bad person because I'm not emotionally involved with my advisors. I treat condescending, judgmental people with an equal measure of disdain.

You were condescending and judgmental in your original post, she only responded to your tone and attitude.

 

[JaynaAli]

In your original post I think you're saying that Tufts requires a letter from an advisor, but I just looked at their website and what I see written there is this:

"Letters of Evaluation
Three letters of evaluation, one from each of the following areas:
-A pre-veterinary, pre-medical or pre-health professions committee, or from a dean, advisor or faculty member in your major or who taught a required pre-professional science course.
-A faculty member in your major or who taught a required pre-professional science course. Applicants with graduate work should have an appropriate graduate school faculty member write this letter.
-A veterinarian or research scientist with whom you have had considerable experience."

To me that seems like Dyachei was right in that specific instance. Sure other schools may ask specifically for that adviser letter but quite frankly if you don't have a good relationship with someone a school requires a letter from, apply somewhere else.

 

[variegata]

I don't know if Tufts has changed since I applied 4 years ago, but I had my Italian professor (I minored in Italian) write one for me rather than an academic adviser. I wasn't assigned a specific adviser in college and saw someone different each time I went in, so I certainly wasn't going to ask them for a letter. I did ultimately interview and get into Tufts, so it doesn't seem like it was a wrong approach (I do remember calling Tufts admissions to ask though).

 

[crazycatlady]

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[Lab Vet]

Lab Vet: Good for you if your undergrad advisors changed your life and made your brain explode with joyful rainbows, but that's not the relationship everyone needs or wants to have with an academic advisor. I'm 30, I'm not going to college to discover "who I really am" or all that typical teenage college stuff, I'm going to school to accomplish a precise goal because I already know who I am and what I want. I resent your argument that I'm doing college wrong because I'm not emotionally bonded to some administrative worker to whom I was randomly assigned. To each their own, and there's no need to look down on people who don't love school employees as though they were family.

I've only been curt towards Lab Vet, who gave me some overly long cryface story that implies I'm a bad person because I'm not emotionally involved with my advisors. I treat condescending, judgmental people with an equal measure of disdain.

If you want to get yourself worked up by a tangential comment within my original post, that's your choice. I shared an observation that I very clearly qualified - TWICE - as MY EXPERIENCE, rather than saying it's irrefutable fact. I said, "From what I've seen" and "seem to be." My statement did not preclude that one can have genuine bonds with an advisor.

I don't appreciate being accosted by Lab Vet with the implication that I'm a bad person because I haven't formed lifelong emotional attachments to the same category of state employee that they've formed lifelong emotional attachments to. I don't love like family any of my school's cafeteria workers, either, but I doubt anyone would get offended by that. And the cafeteria workers actually know me better than my advisor!

My apologies, Crazy Cat Lady, for upsetting you with my contribution. Based upon your post, I was of the opinion that you represented the adviser/student relationship in an unkind light. I gained much from my relationship with all of my advisers (throughout my graduate and undergraduate education), but also recognize that this may not be the case for all students. I posted my story as a counterpoint to your own. You and I are similar in age, we both attended large, undergraduate institutions to complete our pre-vet coursework, and are interested in the same ultimate career path. When it comes to the subject of advising, you and I diverge. That's just fine. For those students who may want a richer, more deep relationship with advisers, I did want to point out that this is indeed available for those that seek it. I suggest we move forward from this disagreement and on to more productive pastures.

 

[pp9]

Kinda off topic...but how do you guys recommend a pre-vetter deal with advisers/professors who tell you to throw in the towel? I am still quite hurt over what my orgo professor said to me 2 years ago. Something along the lines of "How could you ever think you could be a veterinarian when you can't even get a 4.0 in my class? There are students who have over a 100%." Very hurtful and he did not have to say it that way. I went to him for help on a topic from lecture and we digressed into my future plans.

Granted, I know what he said isn't true now, thanks to the advice from current vet students on SDN! However, I would like some advice on how to handle advisers and profs like that. I walked out of my advising appointment with my IS's pre-vet adviser nearly in tears (I didn't know the one I met with was known to tear you down at the time).

I am lucky that my zoology adviser and I have a decent enough relationship. He knows my face out of the 400 students he advises and willingly wrote me a letter this past cycle. I have tons of respect for him! I'm just hoping he remembers who I am if I need to ask him again!

 

[LetItSnow]

Kinda off topic...but how do you guys recommend a pre-vetter deal with advisers/professors who tell you to throw in the towel? I am still quite hurt over what my orgo professor said to me 2 years ago. Something along the lines of "How could you ever think you could be a veterinarian when you can't even get a 4.0 in my class? There are students who have over a 100%." Very hurtful and he did not have to say it that way. I went to him for help on a topic from lecture and we digressed into my future plans.

Granted, I know what he said isn't true now, thanks to the advice from current vet students on SDN! However, I would like some advice on how to handle advisers and profs like that. I walked out of my advising appointment with my IS's pre-vet adviser nearly in tears (I didn't know the one I met with was known to tear you down at the time).

I am lucky that my zoology adviser and I have a decent enough relationship. He knows my face out of the 400 students he advises and willingly wrote me a letter this past cycle. I have tons of respect for him! I'm just hoping he remembers who I am if I need to ask him again!

For the most part, I'd say you ignore them.

That said, at least take the time to sit down and objectively consider what they are saying. Maybe they have a point. Someone outright telling you to throw in the towel probably doesn't (or at the very least is over the top), but at least consider if what they're saying has a nugget of truth and whether/if you can do anything about it. Maybe buried beneath their comment is some weakness to which you can respond and improve yourself as a candidate.

But in general, I would just thank them for their advice - better to stay classy - walk out, and keep on keepin' on.

 

[battie]

For the most part, I'd say you ignore them.

That said, at least take the time to sit down and objectively consider what they are saying. Maybe they have a point. Someone outright telling you to throw in the towel probably doesn't (or at the very least is over the top), but at least consider if what they're saying has a nugget of truth and whether/if you can do anything about it. Maybe buried beneath their comment is some weakness to which you can respond and improve yourself as a candidate.

But in general, I would just thank them for their advice - better to stay classy - walk out, and keep on keepin' on.

This is great advice. We have an O-chem professor here who says at the beginning of the semester that you will not get into vet/med school without at least a B in his specific O-chem class. Then about 70% get Ds and Fs when they take the lecture here. At this point, a lot of us just don't even talk to him and it's even getting to the point where people won't take lecture here. When I retook it, I took it at home over the summer cause I refused to deal with someone that refuses to help 50% of the kids that take his class. Did a lot better the second time around with a much better professor.

Honestly, if you can avoid them, do so. If you have to deal with them, ignore them when you know it's them and not you.