Profession in Decline?

[caereax]

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It is very depressing to make this post, but what the hell is going on in veterinary medicine? I'm currently a pre-veterinary student intending to apply for schools during this upcoming cycle, and within the last month or so have been really getting heavily into researching the profession. From everything I've seen, veterinary medicine seems like it's going into a decline.

Primarily, I'm referencing the ever-increasing class sizes, and the opening of new schools such as UNAM and Western. I get the feeling that these increases in the veterinarian population will only deflate wages and further nudge the market toward saturation of SA clinics; sure there is shortage of in the LA field, but the increase in class size w/o other incentives would only serve to exacerbate the SA saturation problem, unless there is some other angle I'm not seeing. Also, the shady antics of Banfield in their push toward UNAM and Western's accreditation gives me something vague to worry about. The late rise of corporate owned clinics, whatever it means, doesn't seem likely to bode anything positive for the future of the profession.

At the same time, tuition increases are just OBSCENE. Browsing around threads here, I came across some very well thought out projections for the various schools which implemented a 7%+ increase in tuition per year. Can someone please give me some perspective because this seems absolutely insane to me--especially considering wages are going absolutely no where. My own In-State school, Davis, has raised its tuition from 24k two years ago to 33k this year--what the hell is going on? Even the best Out Of State schools for a California (and many other) residents have COAs going into the 170k+ range. This is absolutely terrifying, and especially so as everyone seems to be plunging off of a cliff into incredible debt willingly--I am aware of no drop off in applications.

Can someone please give me some perspective b/c I am about to throw up all over my keyboard.

 

[August West]

All I know is that you shouldn't have waited to research the profession this long. Why did you wait until you are about to apply to DVM programs to assess such things? For most people, I imagine, such concerns are eclipsed by strong desires to practice what they love. Money is not a reason to get into this field. At the same time, veterinary medicine is one of the few projected careers in this country with strong growth outlooks. In fact, according to US News, employment for veterinarians is expected to grow by 19,700 jobs, or 33 percent, between 2008 and 2018.There aren't a lot of veterinarians—60,000 in 2008, according to U.S. estimates; 90,000 in 2008, according to industry data—and demand for vets is strong. Good luck!

 

[Zusie]

Those are all very worrisome to me as well. Sometimes I worry that the AVMA is not protecting the profession as well as it ought.

While August West has a point about researching, what you turn up has a lot to do with whether or not you go in searching with a more positive or negative perspective. If all you search is U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and U.S. News, you're going to get a pretty picture. But once you start being able to poke around on VIN and talk to vets as a vet student and future colleague, you do hear a way different view.

At this point my loan is going to be "reasonable" and I am willing to move anywhere in the country for a job. So I don't worry too much about myself. Understand, I'm not complaining about salary as I've accepted that as part of the package from day one. However, I DON'T appreciate a few things that are happening to the profession, some of which you listed above.

And some people/groups need to butt out. A story I heard recently (no names): back when flea/tick products starting turning up in places other than vets offices, a vet I knew spoke up at a meeting to help figure out what they should do about it. Another vet in the state pretty much told him to shut up and just focus on practicing veterinary medicine. Well, apparently she and her husband later went on to create an internet business that sold those products. People are always looking out for themselves so get suspicious if you're told that something isn't your concern. And while some things may be bigger deals than others, I hate that people get away with sneaking stuff like that through.

Also, August West, it takes years to prepare an application to be accepted for this program (as you know). I first started considering the profession in 2003/2004 in high school. I got my undergrad degree/pre-reqs 2004-2007. A lot can happen/change in just 4-5 years! When you're busy with school for those 3 to 4 years of undergrad, it's easy to fall out of the loop. Before you know it, it's time to apply!

Another thing I worry a bit about, with the rise of specialization, is that I fear in we still lack the "captain of the ship" on cases. 🙁 But that can be worked on. Human med has already had to address it and we will too. 🙂

 

[katryn]

Don't know that it will make you feel any better, but here's my perspective:

It all boils down to knowing what's going on, and making a plan for how to deal with it.
1. Tuition is skyrocketing, more in some places than others, but it is going up. I figured out how into debt I was willing to go for vet school, and made my choice of schools accordingly. What this meant for me was that I was only willing to take a spot at my in state school, where tuition is reasonably low (20k-ish/year), and where they have been intentionally limiting tuition rises to 3% or less for the past few years. I'm lucky to have a spouse with income, so I avoid excess student loans, but I was also fully prepared to live at home with my parents, or with 2-3 roommates in order to keep my living costs as low as humanly possible.
2. The job market is both rising and crashing; some areas are doing so well they are screaming for more vets, and some are so saturated that vets are going under. Like Zusie, I'm prepared to move wherever I can get a job. I also have a giant chunk of a savings account to prepare for the fact that it may take 6 months or more to find a job.
3. Going salaries may not be the greatest. Because it's rare to be offered the most outstanding salary ever when you first start, I live an exceptionally frugal lifestyle. And I budget in a way that I do not spend money that I do not have, even if it means going hungry, or washing my laundry at my parent's house. And you really do need to find the balance between not being concerned with making lots of money, and knowing what you need to make ends meet, because that is most likely where your salary will end up.

I'm not thrilled with the state of the profession right now, and I certainly think there are things the AVMA could be doing to lobby better for us (although that's not a topic I have brain power for at the moment), but for me it boils down to the fact that I could not imagine myself doing anything else. When I was in the midst of rejection letters and looking at plan B's, everything I found just felt wrong. So, I decided what I was willing to do and sacrifice to work in the only profession I could see myself being happy with. It might be a slightly backwards way to look at it, but I'm more concerned with being satisfied with MY job, than I am with the state of the profession as a whole.

 

[cowgirla]

sure there is shortage of in the LA field

.

nope 🙁 the areas without la vets are the areas that cant afford or support a vet. theres no shortage of actual vets

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Those are all very worrisome to me as well. Sometimes I worry that the AVMA is not protecting the profession as well as it ought.

I'm growing more and more convinced that the AVMA is completely useless. I sure as hell won't be renewing my membership this year.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

nope 🙁 the areas without la vets are the areas that cant afford or support a vet. theres no shortage of actual vets

👍

The shortage in the LA field is due to area and financial support, like cowgirla said, as well as a large number of older LA vets who do not want to take on new associates.

 

[katryn]

I'm growing more and more convinced that the AVMA is completely useless. I sure as hell won't be renewing my membership this year.

None of my classmates understand why i'm not bothering with SCAVMA....

 

[Minnerbelle]

All I know is that you shouldn't have waited to research the profession this long. Why did you wait until you are about to apply to DVM programs to assess such things?

I don't agree with this. Getting to the level of understanding the OP has before having matriculated I think is great. All the better for having thought about these things before applying. A lot of stuff the OP has brought up is actually pretty difficult to pick up on while researching. Even with eyes wide open, and lots of internet searches of "reputable" vet sites, and asking mentoring vets questions, some of that stuff might not even come up. I think the assessment given by the OP is for the most part accurate, and pretty thorough. It almost makes me wonder if it's actually a practicing veterinarian in disguise stirring up conversation. Most pre-vets don't get to a similar understanding of the profession before matriculating, and I've seen plenty of vet students who still don't come close to it.

To the OP, to answer your "what the hell is going on?" question, here's my understanding of the answer (which I think is prob similar to yours). Most clinical vet jobs are paid for by disposable income, which is finite at any given time... meaning the total income of vets to whom this applies is finite. With more and more vets graduating, we have more and more people sharing pieces of that pie. We're now at the point where the individual slices are getting too small for vets to live off of due to the ever expanding debt load.

Arguably, the size of that pie can change by changing the total income of the population and/or changing the percentage of disposable income the population wants to spend on their pets. Obviously, an increase in either will help the profession. The former we can't do much about. We can hope that we're at a low due to the recession, and that it will only go up. But the latter is something that can be influenced.

By promoting the human-animal bond, the importance of veterinary care, and how much vet care is actually worth (marketing vets as doctors with expert knowledge who are worthy of being compensated as such), we could potentially encourage the general public to invest in their pets rather than big screen tv's or whatever else people spend their disposable incomes on now. But has this happened? No, not really. In fact it seems like we've gone downhill. Vet clinics used to generate a significant portion of their gross income off of selling drugs and flea/tick products and vaccinations and spay/neuter. All of those products/services were marked up such that the clinic could cover overhead charges and pay staff, including vets. But all of those are now sought by owners in places other than vet clinics for much cheaper, be it pet stores, online pharmacies, vaccine clinics, groomers, spay/neuter clinics. The public doesn't know or care that for a vet clinic to run, there are huge overhead costs that need to be covered somehow and that they'll have to pay in one way or another. If they see cheaper prices, that's all they see. Once people are used to paying cheaper prices, they likely won't go back as long as the cheaper option is available. In order to stay afloat, clinics have to charge more for their other services to cover for loss of revenue from the loss of products/services listed above. That means increases in exam fees, diagnostics, in-house treatments, surgeries, etc... The people who would have come in for a cheaper exam to just get vaccines and flea/tick products no longer have a reason to come in (esp with an increased exam fee). The people who come in with a tight budget who now gets high estimates for needed services get mad. Especially with el cheapo clinics that cut corners to keep costs low, and non-profits that have full service clinics without means testing, fewer and fewer people want to go to the regular vets. The same competing el cheapo and non-profits also sometimes gladly encourage the clients to demonize the "higher priced" vets as money grubbing, etc... Vets are also for some reason continuously on the attack by people who think we should treat all animals for free in needed simply because we *love* animals. Anyone who thinks otherwise is greedy. That kind of attitude doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon.

So for now, the income pie is not getting any bigger. Vets within the profession can certainly live off of the slices comfortably if the slices were big enough. But the problem is, schools are under a budget crunch as less and less tax money are appropriated to vet schools. If each individual school is to survive, they have to get money from somewhere. They could try and get more donations/grants and trim down their budget, but the easiest and for sure solutions are to increase tuition, increase enrollment, and/or increase the proportion of OOS students admitted (further increasing average debt load). All of those exacerbate the income-to-debt ratio problem. Why more and more schools are getting accredited, I have no idea. But as the pie slices get less and less sustainable, more and more people try to get out of the pie scheme (or improve their chances within it) by specializing... and it sounds like most specialty fields are now oversaturated as well.

So it is pretty scary. We're going from a stable and pretty secure profession where people had a reasonable chance at paying off their debt and living comfortably (though in some cases frugally), to one where it's quite possible that many individuals may not make it. But at the same time, there will be many many individuals who can make it work and even thrive. The only thing you'll know for sure going in is roughly how much debt you'll be in when you get out of vet school and possibly sacrifices you know you are NOT willing to make. The rest is kind of up in the air because there are soooo many things that will affect your future beyond that. There's an element of a gamble, and there's also an element of being prepared to make sacrifices. If you're not ready to take either of these on, then I'd maybe suggest finding a different career.You most certainly have the chance to do so without much financial ramifications at this point.

 

[Lissarae06]

None of my classmates understand why i'm not bothering with SCAVMA....

Our SCAVMA membership was so low last year that we lost our vote at symposium. They passed bylaws that said you couldn't be a member of any other student organization unless you were a member of SCAVMA. It really made me mad but I had to conform because I didn't want to miss out on my extra-curriculars.

 

[Zusie]

Minnerbelle, that was a very well written reply.

Another thing I think has saved the profession a bit longer is that it was so difficult and expensive to build new schools. That's why a lot of the other "professions" have succumbed so much quicker and have badly saturated job markets. If all you need to open a school is a classroom facility and a library, a school can open anywhere. Veterinary schools, however, need laboratories and a hospital.

However, with veterinary teaching hospitals now competing with other referral centers and the vet school model Western has created, we're moving towards vet schools being easier and easier to create. There's guaranteed money, as students get student loans - and think of all these academia people that badly want positions. Then, as I have noticed, there is this goal to provide what the consumer wants. The consumer being the potential student, not the job market. So, if x number of students want to be a vet and have the money/loan access, apparently they should all get to go to school to be a vet. I think a profession would manage its numbers better and watch out for everyone.

This is why I say research who benefits, like in the example I gave in an earlier post. Who says there is a vet shortage and wonderful hiring prospects? If it is an organization tied in with colleges (US News) and/or institutions wanting to build vet programs, I would definitely consider the source.

 

[August West]

Sounds like people are implying that newer vet schools like Western were created just to cash in on the abundant pool of sucker applicants and not to meet the needs of a growing field as they purport. And the 33% growth claims put out in the media are also dubious as the companies that offer such projections are part of the academic conspiracy to separate students from their income. I guess I am not this cynical. Or perhaps some of these issues are regional in nature and less relevant for those of us planning to practice in big cities. Not sure. Interesting discussion, nonetheless.

 

[katryn]

Our SCAVMA membership was so low last year that we lost our vote at symposium. They passed bylaws that said you couldn't be a member of any other student organization unless you were a member of SCAVMA. It really made me mad but I had to conform because I didn't want to miss out on my extra-curriculars.

I was on the brink of paying the dues for the wet labs and stuff, then I had some life things come up that pretty much eat any free time I thought I had outside of school. While I will miss the opportunity to do extra labs, the lunch meetings for most of the clubs are a joke anyway, so I don't feel like I'm missing anything there.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Our SCAVMA membership was so low last year that we lost our vote at symposium. They passed bylaws that said you couldn't be a member of any other student organization unless you were a member of SCAVMA. It really made me mad but I had to conform because I didn't want to miss out on my extra-curriculars.

Ours was almost 95% of the class (I was in that 5%, obviously) and the same thing still was in place. You couldn't be an officer in any other club without being in SCAVMA. In addition, you needed SCAVMA's permission to start a new club. 😡 I was told that I needed to either join, or abdicate my position as head of the shelter food donation program for the animal welfare club.

This is why I say research who benefits, like in the example I gave in an earlier post. Who says there is a vet shortage and wonderful hiring prospects? If it is an organization tied in with colleges (US News) and/or institutions wanting to build vet programs, I would definitely consider the source.

👍

 

[that redhead]

Scary, isn't it? The bottom line is, of course, money. That's why class sizes are being increased (notice how its predominantly OOS seats?), new schools are being accredited (not that they don't deserve it necessarily)/built, tuition is being increased, etc. It's pretty sickening to think that they're actually accepting more students now, and it isn't because I want to be an elitest or anything. There are only so many spots to fill, and because of the huge debt loads being taken on by students they can't exactly settle for less when it comes to payment. Not that you should be focused solely on what your salary is, but as someone who wants to live a relatively normal lifestyle - house, kids, etc - it's irritating at best. I don't know who (AVMA?) is OKing these decisions but it feels like they have it out for the future of vet med.

 

[T_Rose]

Vets are also for some reason continuously on the attack by people who think we should treat all animals for free in needed simply because we *love* animals. Anyone who thinks otherwise is greedy. That kind of attitude doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon.

If someone is going to attack veterinarians with that reasoning, then why not attack all the other professions out there. Some people become doctors because they love children or helping others. Some people choose to work on computers or cars because that's what they love to do. If we followed that mentality, many performers, authors, athletes, etc would not be as rich as they are now.

 

[Zusie]

Regarding my mention of Western: I really don't know much and haven't really researched it much other than reading about the lawsuit. I have heard good things about it, and pretty sure I have heard others talk about it that don't like it. I tend to worry more about just the sheer numbers of graduates rather than individual school curriculum. I think we are all educated well. And I don't necessarily think they (Western) specifically tried to change/improve veterinary education for the purpose you mentioned. But the fact remains they fought hard to prove the model does work and now it is out there. And if it is as good or better, then that is good for the future of veterinary medical education. But I think someone does need to try and control how many schools are built in future. If Western model is better, perhaps work on existing schools to get them to incorporate it.

Another thing about these professional programs we are in: 4+ years is a long time (if you include the application cycle). Things may look rosy when you're applying, but who knows how things are 4 years later. And if suddenly there does become a truly large backlog of unemployed grads? The school bears no responsibility. You gave them money and they gave you a good education. But you have the debt and don't have a job to pay for it with. If this happens, people will say "buyer beware." I don't understand why when people that have observed it happen already in other professions try to step up to slow/stop it this is considered wrong?

It just feels like higher ed is kind of this huge machine, though, and I don't know how you fix it without changing something that breaks everything?

 

[kakurubird]

...great post by Minnerbelle...

I really appreciated this post, partly because it's definitely nice to read another opinion on all this and did help me understand some more, but also because I think it's great that people are trying to understand such things. I really think at least a basic understanding of politics/economics (especially because of funding things for state schools, but also personal finance-type things and supply/demand re: LA/rural vets, etc.) is really so important for us entering/considering vet med. Not necessarily a class or formalized study, but just reading the paper/watching the news and staying informed is really quite crucial.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Minnerbelle's assessment is 100% right on the economics and the problem is that the AVMA and veterinary schools do not either understand or want to believe in economics and believe veterinary medicine is immune from the economic forces.

There have been manpower studies for over three decades starting with Arthur Little Study of 1978, AVMA Manpower Study of 1985 , Malcolm Getz's 1997 Veterinary Medicine in Economic Transition book, the KPMG Mega Study of 1999 along with the National Commission on Veterinary Economic Issues (which went defunct last year). Now, the National Academies study on Veterinary Manpower which was started in 2006 is now delayed for an eight time. Still they produce propaganda instead of fact based on sound evidence (much of which is already available). Many of these studies identified a coming oversupply and also recommended changes in the educational framework that would allow veterinarians to become more competitive in the non-clinical fields like research in which veterinarians are not competitive without post DVM research training/residency/graduate school. Financially, how could anyone hope to ever get out of debt if they decided to go that route?

Eventually, failing to solve these problems has only made them not just bigger but compounded them when they come into interact with other issues such as the recession and changes in the marketplace. A radical change of course is needed in the profession. The AVMA should not be both an advocacy and accrediting agency through the Council on Education and the ECFVG activities. It is kind of like asking the Air Transport Association(the trade group of the airlines) to run the FAA; a very unhealthy conflict of interest and mingling of incentives. I think the answer may be to sue the AVMA under anti-trust law as a monopoly causing great harm in the marketplace and restricting innovation in education . Western U had to threaten anti-trust suit in order for it to try it's new model of education in 2001 and obtain accreditation.

The profession must innovate or it will wither away.

 

[gracietiger]

I do not dispute any of the arguments brought forth here, including JosephKnecht's, but I do wonder about statements regarding the profession "withering" away. This is certainly not the first time I have heard predictions that the profession will no longer be sustainable enough to survive, but as a consumer, I still see a lot of demand for veterinary services. It may certainly be the case that veterinary demand will not (or does not) exceed the number of veterinarians, but can the profession really become obsolete? That is a genuine question - not a dispute of the possibility that this may be the case. I am terrified by the studies and predictions concerning this field. However, I believe that veterinary medicine is much more likely to become a "luxury" career (an option only available to the wealthy) before it withers away as a career. Either way, it seems to have a very sad future, indeed.

 

[August West]

I do not dispute any of the arguments brought forth here, including JosephKnecht's, but I do wonder about statements regarding the profession "withering" away. This is certainly not the first time I have heard predictions that the profession will no longer be sustainable enough to survive, but as a consumer, I still see a lot of demand for veterinary services. It may certainly be the case that veterinary demand will not (or does not) exceed the number of veterinarians, but can the profession really become obsolete? That is a genuine question - not a dispute of the possibility that this may be the case. I am terrified by the studies and predictions concerning this field. However, I believe that veterinary medicine is much more likely to become a "luxury" career (an option only available to the wealthy) before it withers away as a career. Either way, it seems to have a very sad future, indeed.

Every industry in America, for the most part, is facing similar or additional pressures. The demand for veterinary professionals will always be there. How well veterinarians fare in such a rapidly changing environment is mostly up to them. I have worked in two fields that actually can be characterized as "in decline" and "withering". One being print media and the other being the music recording industry. There was very little foresight and imagination applied by high-paid presidents and CEOs to deal with the technological landscape that surged up around them. I would never put veterinary medicine in such a category, however. With approximately 80 million dogs and an equal number of cats living in homes as pets in this country, the demand for medical care is clearly there. And these numbers will continue to grow exponentially with our population.

I think it is important to educate future professionals about the pressures and challenges they will face after graduation. At the same time, I believe that foresight and creativity will win out and keep this incredible profession thriving. I have a few ideas on ways to do just that. And I hope that some of my peers are applying their imagination and intelligence and working to improve the livelihood of veterinary medicine as well, and not just mourning its inevitable demise.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Many of these studies identified a coming oversupply and also recommended changes in the educational framework that would allow veterinarians to become more competitive in the non-clinical fields like research in which veterinarians are not competitive without post DVM research training/residency/graduate school. Financially, how could anyone hope to ever get out of debt if they decided to go that route?

*This is a personal rant. I realize I'm one of the few pursuing post DVM res/grad education here, so I feel the need to cntribute)

I'm in a similar situation right now. A "plain" DVM would be laughed out of the vast majority of research labs. They want you to have a PhD, too. And even then, they will more likely hire a PhD because they can pay them less, and said PhDs are usually more specialized in their particular discipline.

Even specialties are getting worse. In order to be a pathologist at any average vet school, I need a DVM, a residency, AND as PhD 😕. Why the hell do I need a PhD? Academia (and industry) need to realize that you, a veterinarian, and especially a specialist, don't need 5 more years of getting paid crap to do an over-specialized research project while your loans balloon, in order to be (in a hospital) good diagnostician, leader, and teacher, or (in industry) to be a competent contributor to a research project involving animals. But they just want to pull in grant money, soooo...yeah. I won't have a "real job" (being a veterinary teaching hospital pathologist) for many more years. Probably not till my mid thirties And I started vet school right out of college.

Yes, yes. I know I am complaining. And yes, I still would have chosen this path, because I love my job.

However, I will still vehemently oppose the current cycle of "more degrees/time/etc" needed for vets seeking academic positions. WHo is going to want to teach the new generations of vets if this continues?