Program affiliated predoctoral internships-Thoughts/opinions?

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erg923

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This is especially directed at those who just went through the match (or are about to) but is relevant to all of us.

What are your feelings towards "affiliated internship" or a "partially affiliated internship," which means that the program has an affiliation with a specific doctoral program and generally (but not necessarily exclusively, in the case of partial affiliation) accepts interns only from that doctoral program. Argosy DC has one as does Widener and University of Denver's School of professional psychology. UT Southwestern Med Center's clinical program has one of these too I think. Its divided into 2 years though, I think.

I have also heard through rumor mills that this model is becoming appealing for other programs too. Specifically, the University of Kentucky. I think their logic is more about not losing the productivity of grad students from Dec through February.

The reason I brought this up is because some of these programs are offering quite a few spots in the APPIC match II (they are APA accredited) but they are still only open to students from the affiliated school at this point. I can appreciate how in this era of mass imbalance, this would be quite off-putting to people still struggling to get a match.

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One of APA's suggestions (ahem) to send the internship crisis is for weak programs to develop in-house internships.

On the one hand, it removes the problem schools from the crisis and lessens their impact on the rest of us. I personally think it's a salve and not a cure. It's the most effective thing the APA is actually doing, though.
 
Pretty much agree with what JN said...band-aid on a broken limb and all that.

Let's be honest, if 1-2 "brands" closed their doors, the match rate would likely jump to 85-95% in an instant (well, assuming appropriate re-distribution of applications, which I'm not convinced would happen....but the spots would be there). Given all the other problems with having classes of 50, 75, 100, etc. I don't want it to turn into "Well we have our own internship site so its okay to accept anyone with a pulse and a checkbook". Match at least places a somewhat artificial restraint on corporate interest, even if it does suck for a number of people involved. There is also something about captive internships that seems inherently...unfair isn't quite the word. Putting pressure on schools with lots of students to create them is somewhat disconcerting. While it may not be the psychology department, many (most) major universities either directly or indirectly take the time to create internships via their affiliated medical schools, teaching hospitals, counseling centers, etc. They carry the burden of costs associated with operating, accreditation, etc. and are expected to keep the doors open to anyone, and don't seem to have a problem with it. It just doesn't seem right to me that schools that already stretch the system are forced to create sites, but aren't expected to "share" in quite the same way. Now, captive internships are not exclusive to those schools at the present time, but it seems like they are the ones being targeted for creation of "new" sites. Don't get me wrong, I'm not applying to Argosy-internship either way, but it still seems wrong.

That said, while I am looking forward to seeing someplace new and the added diversity to be training at an unaffiliated program, I do think shifting to a local internship site (or consortium) model would be preferable in the long run. Frankly, having to move for "just" a year and then potentially move again for post-doc is a bit much.
 
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That said, while I am looking forward to seeing someplace new and the added diversity to be training at an unaffiliated program, I do think shifting to a local internship site (or consortium) model would be preferable in the long run. Frankly, having to move for "just" a year and then potentially move again for post-doc is a bit much.


I agree, I kinda view it as the model we might, one day, need to get on board with. It just makes more pragmatic sense to do it that way, in my mind. Less moving around (for those of us with families, this is huge), less cost, less stress, less hassle. Ethically this seems much more sound as well. "If you can hack it through this program, then you are guaranteed our local APA accredited internship." Weeding people out earlier rather than later seems to make more sense to me. Instead, currently, we have all these people doing well in graduate school and then stalling for a year, SOMETIMES 2 OR 3, before being aloud to actually finish it.

However, I do feel like at this point it is essentially a band-aid. Moreover, I would frankly be somewhat resentful if I didn't match and then saw that the DU internship consortium is currently still offering 8 positions to which I am not allowed to apply to.
 
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im a widener grad, and while i LOVED not having to go through the whole APPIC thing....i like to go to new places and was sad that i missed out on the opportunity to maybe move somewhere else to do my internship work. i dont love philly. just sayin.

the thing is, widener would have to revamp their entire system if they got rid of the captive internship....we dont just do one year of internship. our last two years are internship years. for about about 24 hours/week. while at the same time taking classes, researching/writing/defending dissertations, and sitting for final clinical orals exams. its hell on earth. i dont know that there is much incentive for widener to change everything about its program.
 
the thing is, widener would have to revamp their entire system if they got rid of the captive internship....we dont just do one year of internship. our last two years are internship years. for about about 24 hours/week. while at the same time taking classes, researching/writing/defending dissertations, and sitting for final clinical orals exams. its hell on earth. i dont know that there is much incentive for widener to change everything about its program.

Out of pure curiosity, what is the timing like in your program? How many years of practicum do you do before moving to the part-time internship model?
 
Out of pure curiosity, what is the timing like in your program? How many years of practicum do you do before moving to the part-time internship model?
we start practicum training the first year. 2 days per week, we do practicum while doing classes the other 3 days. although, with creative scheduling you can have a four day week. we do that for the first three years. then in the last two years you go to 3 days per week at internship and 2 days per week in classes. but again...creative scheduling can reduce that to a 4 day week.

i can tell you it was excrutiatingly scary to start practicum work after one month of classes. but im glad they do it that way. ive had so many different types of experiences and worked in so many different types of settings....there's little that i havent doen, which is helpful in figuring out what i want to do long term.
 
With regards to part-time internships, isn't one of the rationales given for the predoc year the benefit one derives from being fully submersed in the professional world and the professional practice of clinical psychology. Devoting oneself 100% to clinical work and fostering professional development seems to be one of the most valuable aspects of the experience, IMHO. I would think a part-time internship, of the nature you describe, would simply be very similar to a clinical practicum. Thoughts?
 
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With regards to part-time internships, isn't one of the rationales for the predoc year the benefit one derives from being fully submersed in the professional world and the practice of clinical psychology. Devoting oneself 100% to clinical work and fostering professional development seems to be one of the most valuable aspects of the experience, IMHO. I would think a part-time internship, of the nature you describe, would simply be very similar to a clinical practicum. Thoughts?
I have also wondered this. Think about it in the framework of college v. pro sports. Almost without exception, athletes in college "hit the wall" during their first season or two of the pro season because they just aren't accustomed to the longer season. I would think trainees have a similar experience with internship v. practicum.
 
I think it would make a lot of sense to open up unfilled captive internship positions to applicants from other schools after Phase II and Clearing House while still allowing those sites to give preference to any unmatched applicants from their sponsoring programs.

Anyone know of all the captive APPIC/APA internship sites?

I know of:

Widener (2 year, half-time, APA)

Argosy-Hawaii (APPIC)

Denver GSPP [PsyD] (APA)

Southwestern (2 year, half-time, APA)

Immaculata (APPIC, consortium)

ETA: Nova Southeastern (APPIC)

Anywhere else? I think Forest has an affiliated APA-accredited internship that isn't captive but leans heavily toward their own applicants...

It strikes me that only one of the programs I listed--Southwestern--is funded, AFAIK, although I doubt there's a causal connection between the two, unless it's a funding/cash flow issue.
 
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I believe that Widener's internship pays aprox $14,000, not sure if this is per year or for the full 2 years. I would assume/hope that it is per year. I actually interviewed at Widener aprox a month ago, and the way that they presented the captive internship really rubbed me the wrong way, at least as far as the financials. They discussed the captive internship process and how it alleviates the stress of the Match process, and I think this is a valuable point. It is an asset that the program has. However, it felt like they were using scare tactics to sell their program, such as talking about the number of students that did not match last year. They also stressed the fact that it is paid, and made a big deal about this. However, the program also charges full tuition (aprox 28,000) for the last two years of the program. So, let's do the math. Students are still paying out almost 60,000 on their internship years, when most students are paying a minimal fee, or nothing, on their internship year, while making at least $20,000 that year.

I have no doubt that Widener is a solid PsyD program, and has a lot to offer. But I really think that they are ripping their students off. That degree is not worth $200,000. Most degrees aren't. The PsyD program that I will be attending charges a VERY minimal fee during the last two years of the program (dissertation & internship years). This sounds like a better deal to me.
 
I think it would make a lot of sense to open up unfilled captive internship positions to applicants from other schools after Phase II and Clearing House while still allowing those sites to give preference to any unmatched applicants from their sponsoring programs.

Anyone know of all the captive APPIC/APA internship sites?

I know of:

Widener (2 year, half-time, APA)

Argosy-Hawaii (APPIC?)

Denver GSPP [PsyD] (APA)

Southwestern (2 year, half-time, APA)

Immaculata (APPIC, consortium)

Anywhere else? I think Forest has an affiliated APA-accredited internship that isn't captive but leans heavily toward their own applicants...

It strikes me that only one of the programs I listed--Southwestern--is funded, AFAIK, although I doubt there's a causal connection between the two, unless it's a funding/cash flow issue.

apologies for potentially hijacking this thread, but what is the difference between this sort of captive internship and other "in house" internship programs? I'm thinking specifically of Michigan, which states it offers either a local internship consortium or the usual appic match, but I'm sure there are others.
I haven't even started grad school yet, so I'm clueless on the internship stuff, sorry:) being able to stay in the same place for internship instead of moving (yet again) is a definite plus for a program in my book, though.
 
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With regards to part-time internships, isn't one of the rationales given for the predoc year the benefit one derives from being fully submersed in the professional world and the professional practice of clinical psychology. Devoting oneself 100% to clinical work and fostering professional development seems to be one of the most valuable aspects of the experience, IMHO. I would think a part-time internship, of the nature you describe, would simply be very similar to a clinical practicum. Thoughts?
i wasnt aware that this was one of the rationales and i suppose it would be pretty similar. i experienced it as far more intense than my practicum experiences, but that might be because of the other stuff i was also stressing out about (dissertation and orals) and though i was there 24 hours, i had a full time job's worth of work! you know how they love free labor....

also, the classes we take in those internship years are usually case conferences...all the foundational stuff is done before comps
 
I believe that Widener's internship pays aprox $14,000, not sure if this is per year or for the full 2 years. I would assume/hope that it is per year. I actually interviewed at Widener aprox a month ago, and the way that they presented the captive internship really rubbed me the wrong way, at least as far as the financials. They discussed the captive internship process and how it alleviates the stress of the Match process, and I think this is a valuable point. It is an asset that the program has. However, it felt like they were using scare tactics to sell their program, such as talking about the number of students that did not match last year. They also stressed the fact that it is paid, and made a big deal about this. However, the program also charges full tuition (aprox 28,000) for the last two years of the program. So, let's do the math. Students are still paying out almost 60,000 on their internship years, when most students are paying a minimal fee, or nothing, on their internship year, while making at least $20,000 that year.

I have no doubt that Widener is a solid PsyD program, and has a lot to offer. But I really think that they are ripping their students off. That degree is not worth $200,000. Most degrees aren't. The PsyD program that I will be attending charges a VERY minimal fee during the last two years of the program (dissertation & internship years). This sounds like a better deal to me.
wow, thats a real change from when i interviewed....the class sizes at widener have been getting larger and larger, i wonder if thats one of the ways theyre making that happen.

and youre right, i think we get paid the equivalent of like $12/hour or something ridiculous like that for internship years. and the tuition has risen almost $12k since i first started. its outrageous!
 
Not to approach this topic from too simplistic a view point, but is it not grossly unfair for programs to support internship placements that only consider their own students while expecting their students to also get full consideration at other sites? Esp when many of the programs that do this are the main culprits that are flooding the market each year?
 
Not to approach this topic from too simplistic a view point, but is it not grossly unfair for programs to support internship placements that only consider their own students while expecting their students to also get full consideration at other sites? Esp when many of the programs that do this are the main culprits that are flooding the market each year?

I wondered that myself. Are students at these captive/in-house programs required to attend their programs' site, or is this merely an option for them and they are still allowed the opportunity to apply as any other student with their site as a "back-up" if they need it?
 
Not to approach this topic from too simplistic a view point, but is it not grossly unfair for programs to support internship placements that only consider their own students while expecting their students to also get full consideration at other sites? Esp when many of the programs that do this are the main culprits that are flooding the market each year?

The counter-argument could be that because these sites are providing internship slots, they aren't a "drain" or burden on the system.

No clue if they require their students to stick around for the captive internship, though (other than Widener, which seems to...?).
 
The counter-argument could be that because these sites are providing internship slots, they aren't a "drain" or burden on the system.

I don't mind that they "cover" their students, as it is better than not....however the imbalance is still very much in play because there are too many people applying for the other spots. Making more spots is not the solution for an over-supply when the market is already saturated.
 
I don't mind that they "cover" their students, as it is better than not....however the imbalance is still very much in play because there are too many people applying for the other spots. Making more spots is not the solution for an over-supply when the market is already saturated.

It theoretically could be one solution, although I would agree that given the investment of both time and money required to open internship spots, it's not a viable one in this situation. It really does need to come down to a restriction on the front end (i.e., fewer students) in addition to holding all programs more accountable for their students' outcomes.
 
I wondered that myself. Are students at these captive/in-house programs required to attend their programs' site, or is this merely an option for them and they are still allowed the opportunity to apply as any other student with their site as a "back-up" if they need it?
i don tknow how other schools do it, but with widener there was a list....a long list of placements and we had meetings where we would get descriptions of what you do at each site. you would pick the ones you wanted to interview at and rank them and hopefully, you would get those to go for an interview.

the problem with captive internships is that they wont stay captive if you dont have students going there to interview, so often we would end up with at least one or two sites that we had no interest in going to and we didnt put on our list. they have to send 5 interviewees for every 1 spot at each placement and some placements had 2-3 spots so there were guaranteed a few people going to interview there that had no interest in it. and you cant tank the interview...that would be stupid anyway cuz philly is a very small psychology community.

also, at most of my and my classmates' placements for both practicum and internship, there were practicum/intern students from other schools. i always found this cool. my first year practicum i met an intern from PCOM and she was kinda brilliant. i learned a lot from her. there were also students from LaSalle, Immaculata and a couple other schools working alongside us. so, i dont think our captive internships exclude to the point of leaving open slots at placements....i think we get first crack at it. which seems to work out because we do our placing earlier than most of the schools in the area.

i could be making that last part up, but im pretty sure thats how it works
 
also....people have been known to create their own placements
 
I think it would make a lot of sense to open up unfilled captive internship positions to applicants from other schools after Phase II and Clearing House while still allowing those sites to give preference to any unmatched applicants from their sponsoring programs.

Anyone know of all the captive APPIC/APA internship sites?

I know of:

Widener (2 year, half-time, APA)

Argosy-Hawaii (APPIC)

Denver GSPP [PsyD] (APA)

Southwestern (2 year, half-time, APA)

Immaculata (APPIC, consortium)

ETA: Nova Southeastern (APPIC)

Anywhere else? I think Forest has an affiliated APA-accredited internship that isn't captive but leans heavily toward their own applicants...

It strikes me that only one of the programs I listed--Southwestern--is funded, AFAIK, although I doubt there's a causal connection between the two, unless it's a funding/cash flow issue.


I can speak for Immaculata. They have the consortium that is offered to IU students first. If there are open placements after the match they are opened up to the public. The consortium offers paid internships with benefits. That being said you can apply to any site for internship not just the consortium.

IU specifically made the consortium because many of the students did not want to relocate for internship and they didnt care if they got APA or APPIC.

The school also offers limited full funding for 8 students and scholarships.
 
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