Program invited me for 2nd visit

[resident12]

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Hi,

I just got an email from a program, inviting me to come back for a second visit. I am excited because this is a program that I am really interested in. But, I would like to know if/what this invite actually means? Do they invite people they are interested in? Do they rank people who show up, higher on the Rank order list?
Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[twright]

Hi,

I just got an email from a program, inviting me to come back for a second visit. I am excited because this is a program that I am really interested in. But, I would like to know if/what this invite actually means? Do they invite people they are interested in? Do they rank people who show up, higher on the Rank order list?
Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

Depends on the program. At our program we do not offer second looks, nor does a second look really affect how we rank someone.

Not knowing anything more about the program you describe, I would guess that if they offered funding for your second visit (e.g., to cover airfare, hotel) then it would be reasonable to interpret that as a signal of interest. If they are not offering funding then your guess would be as good as mine.

If you declined to go there for a second look (whether they are offering funding or not), I doubt that would affect your status either way.

In general, I highly doubt a program director would issue second-look invitations to applicants that they were not interested in. But please keep in mind that, for most programs, the majority of applicants who are interviewed would be "acceptable" or even "desired".

 

[siked]

Hi,

I just got an email from a program, inviting me to come back for a second visit. I am excited because this is a program that I am really interested in. But, I would like to know if/what this invite actually means? Do they invite people they are interested in? Do they rank people who show up, higher on the Rank order list?
Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

They probably like you, and want to make sure that you know they like you. They also want to be sure that you like them.

Don't go to the second look for their sake. Do it only if you want to. Sounds like you're going to be ranked highly regardless.

 

[psychattending]

Hi,

I just got an email from a program, inviting me to come back for a second visit. I am excited because this is a program that I am really interested in. But, I would like to know if/what this invite actually means? Do they invite people they are interested in? Do they rank people who show up, higher on the Rank order list?
Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

Requiring an applicant to come for a second visit violates the code of conduct of the Match.

http://www.nrmp.org/code.pdf

and as I understand it violates the agreement that a PD made with the NRMP and is thus a reportable offense.

 

[doc4us]

Requiring an applicant to come for a second visit violates the code of conduct of the Match.

http://www.nrmp.org/code.pdf

and as I understand it violates the agreement that a PD made with the NRMP and is thus a reportable offense.

Resident12 never said the second visit invitation was "required." Merely offering the opportunity for a second visit does not appear to be a violation of the rules.

 

[psychattending]

Resident12 never said the second visit invitation was "required." Merely offering the opportunity for a second visit does not appear to be a violation of the rules.

The specific code states: "Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list." I would argue that inviting an applicant for a second interview implies that the visit would be used for the purposes of ranking (this has become a significant problem in some specialties) and thus I would think the program would have to be very specific in the letter that not coming for a second visit would not impact the ranking of an applicant in order to not be caught by their wrath. Being a PD I cannot think of a good reason why I would want to have somebody come back for a second visit other than to either influence that person's view of my program (prohibited- "program directors [cannot] engage in post-interview communication that is disingenuous for the purpose of influencing applicants' ranking preferences") or to somehow alter my ranking of the applicant (also prohibited).

 

[notdeadyet]

The specific code states: "Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list." I would argue that inviting an applicant for a second interview implies that the visit would be used for the purposes of ranking (this has become a significant problem in some specialties) and thus I would think the program would have to be very specific in the letter that not coming for a second visit would not impact the ranking of an applicant in order to not be caught by their wrath.

I was invited to several second looks, all of which were very specific that they weren't required but if I felt there were aspects of the program I felt I needed to learn more about or people I didn't get a chance to meet, I was welcome to come back on XX day. I have never heard of programs with second looks even remotely implying that it would affect ranking. Frankly, since second looks are such a pain in the *****, I would imagine folks would be delighted if no one wanted to come.

 

[shan564]

The specific code states: "Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list." I would argue that inviting an applicant for a second interview implies that the visit would be used for the purposes of ranking (this has become a significant problem in some specialties) and thus I would think the program would have to be very specific in the letter that not coming for a second visit would not impact the ranking of an applicant in order to not be caught by their wrath. Being a PD I cannot think of a good reason why I would want to have somebody come back for a second visit other than to either influence that person's view of my program (prohibited- "program directors [cannot] engage in post-interview communication that is disingenuous for the purpose of influencing applicants' ranking preferences") or to somehow alter my ranking of the applicant (also prohibited).

Thanks for sharing that experience. People keep making suggestions about second looks, but honestly, I've gotten everything I need from most programs on the first look and the website (i.e. research opportunities, faculty accomplishments, areas of strength). I guess a second look could help you learn more about a day in the life of a resident, but I don't feel like that would be particularly revealing... I'm more interested in other factors.

 

[PikminOC]

I figure if you are going to spend 4 years somewhere, it might be a good idea to go for a second look. Anything you want to ask about or to get a feel for the program on a different day (different from the first interview day) can't hurt.

 

[thoffen]

I think you're being a little silly about this. They wouldn't invite you if they weren't at least considering ranking you high enough to get into the program.

 

[psymed]

With the elimination of the pre match a lot of programs are nervous that they might have to scramble in case they do not match. Hence all the second look invites. Unless you are the only candidate at the second look, it does not mean much. Another way to gauge this is that if you received a mass invitation via email addressed to multiple other people

 

[Psychiatrized]

The specific code states: "Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list." I would argue that inviting an applicant for a second interview implies that the visit would be used for the purposes of ranking (this has become a significant problem in some specialties) and thus I would think the program would have to be very specific in the letter that not coming for a second visit would not impact the ranking of an applicant in order to not be caught by their wrath. Being a PD I cannot think of a good reason why I would want to have somebody come back for a second visit other than to either influence that person's view of my program (prohibited- "program directors [cannot] engage in post-interview communication that is disingenuous for the purpose of influencing applicants' ranking preferences") or to somehow alter my ranking of the applicant (also prohibited).

While I definitely respect your viewpoint, I did not get from the OPs statement that the PD was implying that a second visit is used in determining an applicants placement. I did see it more as a way to reach out and encourage the applicant to find out more about the program (in my view) because the program likes the applicant. While we might take it as a sign of the PDs interest it is a bit of a stretch to say that this interest would be disingenuous. Especially since it is an extra effort on the program's part to host a second look. I think from a legal standpoint given the guidelines you have quoted there would be no case for a match violation.

Maybe I'm an optimist but hopefully there are sincere souls still out there.

 

[FlowersinHair]

Resident12 never said the second visit invitation was "required." Merely offering the opportunity for a second visit does not appear to be a violation of the rules.

Most of my programs asked us to keep in touch and email them, isn't this soliciting post interview communication??


Oh well

 

[shan564]

Most of my programs asked us to keep in touch and email them, isn't this soliciting post interview communication??


Oh well

There are no rules against soliciting post-interview communication. The only issue is if they try to ask you to tell them where they sit on your rank list (and vice versa).

 

[OldPsychDoc]

There are no rules against soliciting post-interview communication. The only issue is if they try to ask you to tell them where they sit on your rank list (and vice versa).

Yes, and "keeping the door open" for questions, etc. is not illegal either.