program itself vs. location

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JabsterL

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as we wrap and certify our ROLs (hopefully for at least close to the last time since they due in 2 days), just wanted to get the final word from those in our great field regarding what's the general consensus when comparing program strength vs. location (to enjoy life outside work) when deciding rank order (all else being equal)?

I've been told by some go with the program who seems to provide better training because 'going out gets old' and other location-dependent dreams can wait 'til after great training in a lesser location, and told by others go where you're happy (assuming residents and faculty are equally cool at both places, this is mainly decided by location they say and this - location, location, location - should def be top priority)...what say you?

Thank you, and best of luck to everyone in the Match!

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I would put strength of the program above location, but both are really important. Many of us are considering things like where a spouse/partner can find work, where our family and friends live, and where we would like to practice afterward in addition to just considering how much fun a given location would be. So if two programs both seem solid, I would rank the better location over the slightly more impressive name. If a program seems obviously worse, though, I would not rank it ahead just for location unless personal reasons required it (like a spouse needing to be in that location).

I guess for me once programs pass a threshold of "good enough" I put more weight on location for personal reasons, but if a program isn't good enough (with a pretty high bar) I would hesitate to consider it.
 
In a field like psychiatry with so many good programs that are actually attainable to that average applicant, I don't understand why anyone would apply to a program in a location that they didn't find desirable. Personally, I only applied to places where I thought I would like to live.

But, if the situation presents itself and you have to chose, I guess the answer would be based on your career goals. For example, if you want a career in academia, the program iself would probably be more important than if you want to do private practice or community paych. Location also makes sense for private practice as you will likely have made contacts that will help you get on your feet in the private sector quicker if you have trained in the location where you want to practice.
 
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Residency is 4 years of your life, and it's your choice how you would like to spend it. I prioritized location in my choice, which overall I think was a good call. I'm settling in in a city that I plan on staying in, my spouse is happy here, and we have lots of things we can enjoy when I do have time off. Of course I still think I'm actually getting good training but not at as big of a name type of place as I might have gone to otherwise. Honestly, though, I'm not sure that would be a great tradeoff because there are plenty of jobs out there for all of us, and I don't want to do academics. Most programs will get the job done.
 
as we wrap and certify our ROLs (hopefully for at least close to the last time since they due in 2 days), just wanted to get the final word from those in our great field regarding what's the general consensus when comparing program strength vs. location (to enjoy life outside work) when deciding rank order (all else being equal)?

I've been told by some go with the program who seems to provide better training because 'going out gets old' and other location-dependent dreams can wait 'til after great training in a lesser location, and told by others go where you're happy (assuming residents and faculty are equally cool at both places, this is mainly decided by location they say and this - location, location, location - should def be top priority)...what say you?

Thank you, and best of luck to everyone in the Match!

Your happiness and overall well being will likely be determined by your location-- whether it is because you live near family/friends, because you live in a big city with lots of bars and beautiful young people, or because you like having sun 350 days out of the year. In my experience, and in talking with my friends, very few programs can offer high quality training that is sufficient to overcome these non-program related factors. Typically these programs are able to accomplish a substantive degree of brainwashing in terms of getting you to subscribe to the idea that no other institutions offer a comparable model of care and that you would be unhappy learning or teaching clinical medicine anywhere else (think: Hopkins). Compounding the problem is that we all tend to overestimate our ability to benefit from the halo effect of a high-quality program and/or overestimate the importance that training at a high-quality program holds for our future happiness. So, with the exception of these few programs, the tradeoff is simply not worth it. Go where you think you'll be happy.
 
What if you are torn between two programs that are both in beautiful locations and offer strong training in the same state where you plan to practice? For me, it's San Diego vs Palo Alto - I love both areas and can see myself living in either location. They are both 45 min from large exciting cities as well. Not that I'm complaining by having this problem :)
 
What if you are torn between two programs that are both in beautiful locations and offer strong training in the same state where you plan to practice? For me, it's San Diego vs Palo Alto - I love both areas and can see myself living in either location. They are both 45 min from large exciting cities as well. Not that I'm complaining by having this problem :)

Stanford and UCSD are very very different programs. Size, patient population exposure, And can you answer where you want to end up practicing, ultimately?
 
Mostly true. Setting up a cash private practice in a city in which you didn't train takes some time. In my experience, at least.

Sure it may take a little longer to build a cash practice, but it isn't like you can't find other part-time jobs until you build your practice. I'd rather spend 4 years training in a place where I am happy than less happy for 4 years to make it a little easier to start a cash only practice.
 
Sure it may take a little longer to build a cash practice, but it isn't like you can't find other part-time jobs until you build your practice. I'd rather spend 4 years training in a place where I am happy than less happy for 4 years to make it a little easier to start a cash only practice.

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm mentioning it as a factor (one of many) to be considered.
 
What if you are torn between two programs that are both in beautiful locations and offer strong training in the same state where you plan to practice? For me, it's San Diego vs Palo Alto - I love both areas and can see myself living in either location. They are both 45 min from large exciting cities as well. Not that I'm complaining by having this problem :)

Then it comes down to who has the better NCAA football team. :laugh:
 
Your happiness and overall well being will likely be determined by your location-- whether it is because you live near family/friends, because you live in a big city with lots of bars and beautiful young people, or because you like having sun 350 days out of the year. In my experience, and in talking with my friends, very few programs can offer high quality training that is sufficient to overcome these non-program related factors. Typically these programs are able to accomplish a substantive degree of brainwashing in terms of getting you to subscribe to the idea that no other institutions offer a comparable model of care and that you would be unhappy learning or teaching clinical medicine anywhere else (think: Hopkins). Compounding the problem is that we all tend to overestimate our ability to benefit from the halo effect of a high-quality program and/or overestimate the importance that training at a high-quality program holds for our future happiness. So, with the exception of these few programs, the tradeoff is simply not worth it. Go where you think you'll be happy.

Well said. And on that note, I am no longer willing to sacrifice my external life for medicine. As these [young/energetic/receptive to changing] years roll by, I realize how sooo NOT worth it is....
 
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Well said. And on that note, I am no longer willing to sacrifice my external life for medicine. As these [young/energetic/receptive to changing] years roll by, I realize how sooo NOT worth it is....

:thumbup:I have given a big DNR to some supposedly top/strong blah blah programs because I just know I will be miserable living there, or because they don't give enough vacation.
Say NO to programs giving only 2 weeks!
 
:thumbup:I have given a big DNR to some supposedly top/strong blah blah programs because I just know I will be miserable living there, or because they don't give enough vacation.
Say NO to programs giving only 2 weeks!

oh H3LL no! lol....I've heard about that 2 week for intern year setup. What? during arguably the toughest year one may encounter in medicine? I thinks not....

Also, say NO to $200 per month parking...Yes, this is at near the top of a list of reasons why I wont be ranking one program. Especially in a location that isn't the cheapest anyways. They need to get that fixed, fast!

say NO to Benefits that cost almost a 1/3 of your monthly pay but (speaking with current residents) seem to offer about a 1/3 of the health insurance of medical students (and we all know how bad that can be!).

say NO to a program that is insistent upon leaving "the fat" in the educational experience and therefore requiring residents to work an ungodly amount of hours.

and say NO to a program that appears to be cheap/financially unstable and wont even provide a drink of water for the applicant breakfast.

No Thanks! each of these in their own special way appear to tie down with misery and are reasons why some programs have made my DNR list...
 
Not the same thing but along similar lines...

The residency program I was in gave out free food and it was good free food. That saved me about $150-200/month in groceries, saved a heck of a lot of time, and when I was on call, I usually had something to eat in the middle of the night.

Things like this do matter. When you're doing a code in medicine and pumping on some lady's chest on a full stomach at 3:30 AM it does give you a boost.
 
Not the same thing but along similar lines...

The residency program I was in gave out free food and it was good free food. That saved me about $150-200/month in groceries, saved a heck of a lot of time, and when I was on call, I usually had something to eat in the middle of the night.

Things like this do matter. When you're doing a code in medicine and pumping on some lady's chest on a full stomach at 3:30 AM it does give you a boost.

:thumbup:.... If only I were able to locate one of these. Saving that much money is certainly a good look for any half-decent program. Hell, I'd even deal with some malignancy if I could eat for free through it all...IJS:laugh:(maybe not...)


In Psych, (and I guess even more for an AMG) things that may appear silly for some are more serious for others who actually have the option to consider it...

The Program I'm ranking #1 had a 52k+ intern salary, no state taxes (hint hint), minimal PRE TAX deductions for health plans, parking, etc. limitless moonlighting if you wanted, and the cheapest cost of living I could find in a major city...the interesting part is that academically, it happens to be one of the more decent and humane programs discussed here and elsewhere...

I was sold:love:, Please love me back! I want sandwiches! Cheap COL, and no State taxes!!
 
The program was in Atlantic City. I don't know this for a fact, but I speculated the food was so good because the hospital was likely using a casino caterer. Once in awhile, the place used to do stuff like barbecued steaks (real ones--real steaks on a barbecue)...They also had expensive drinks in the cafeteria like Arizona Iced Tea or Starbucks Coffee.

And I was eating for free.

And I was about a 10 minute walk from the beach. If things were quiet, I could walk to the beach for a few minutes, then go back to work.

Did I mention the hospital was physically connected via a garage to Caesar's Palace and a high-end shopping mall that was on top of the ocean?

http://www.thepiershopsatcaesars.com/

When you hit 2nd year onwards, you could rake in a few extra thousand a year hardly doing any real work by taking on the restraint beeper. The attendings didn't care so they offered it to the resident. If a person is put in restraints, you got to drive to the hospital to document what happened, but such things hardly ever happened. For the most part you just carried and so long as you were within 1 hour of the hospital you could do anything you wanted.

Miss those days. No ocean to see in Ohio.
 
If free food was so important to you all you should have looked at DO residencies. I think its exceedingly rare NOT to eat free at a DO hospital. I don't think I paid for a meal my entire 3rd year of med school.

I somewhat say that in jest, but honestly many of the 'community' type MD residencies (some of which are raved about on SDN and other places) are very similar to the DO residencies that I am familiar with, and those DO programs happen to get bashed on these same boards. Just an interesting observation I have made.
 
Your happiness and overall well being will likely be determined by your location-- whether it is because you live near family/friends, because you live in a big city with lots of bars and beautiful young people, or because you like having sun 350 days out of the year. In my experience, and in talking with my friends, very few programs can offer high quality training that is sufficient to overcome these non-program related factors. Typically these programs are able to accomplish a substantive degree of brainwashing in terms of getting you to subscribe to the idea that no other institutions offer a comparable model of care and that you would be unhappy learning or teaching clinical medicine anywhere else (think: Hopkins). Compounding the problem is that we all tend to overestimate our ability to benefit from the halo effect of a high-quality program and/or overestimate the importance that training at a high-quality program holds for our future happiness. So, with the exception of these few programs, the tradeoff is simply not worth it. Go where you think you'll be happy.

completely agree with the above.

There are so many good programs that there is no reason to sacrifice location for program - you can get both!
 
I wouldn't choose "Prestige" over living in a nice city, but I WOULD prioritize a well-run, friendly, non-malignant program in an undesirable city over a program that sounded possibly malignant or poorly run in a nice city.
Being in a malignant program can really drag you down and make you miserable. I'd rather be at a tolerable, if not pleasant, workplace and have to be a little creative trying to find stuff to do in my free time than be at a place that I dread going to work every day. That would poison your ability to enjoy your free time. And, really, it is only 3-4 years. I thought med school went by pretty fast, and so far residency is actually going by pretty fast too.
 
The program was in Atlantic City. I don't know this for a fact, but I speculated the food was so good because the hospital was likely using a casino caterer. Once in awhile, the place used to do stuff like barbecued steaks (real ones--real steaks on a barbecue)...They also had expensive drinks in the cafeteria like Arizona Iced Tea or Starbucks Coffee.

And I was eating for free.

And I was about a 10 minute walk from the beach. If things were quiet, I could walk to the beach for a few minutes, then go back to work.

Did I mention the hospital was physically connected via a garage to Caesar's Palace and a high-end shopping mall that was on top of the ocean?

http://www.thepiershopsatcaesars.com/

When you hit 2nd year onwards, you could rake in a few extra thousand a year hardly doing any real work by taking on the restraint beeper. The attendings didn't care so they offered it to the resident. If a person is put in restraints, you got to drive to the hospital to document what happened, but such things hardly ever happened. For the most part you just carried and so long as you were within 1 hour of the hospital you could do anything you wanted.

Miss those days. No ocean to see in Ohio.

Wow. Sounds like a dream.
 
The program was in Atlantic City. I don't know this for a fact, but I speculated the food was so good because the hospital was likely using a casino caterer. Once in awhile, the place used to do stuff like barbecued steaks (real ones--real steaks on a barbecue)...They also had expensive drinks in the cafeteria like Arizona Iced Tea or Starbucks Coffee.

And I was eating for free.

And I was about a 10 minute walk from the beach. If things were quiet, I could walk to the beach for a few minutes, then go back to work.

Did I mention the hospital was physically connected via a garage to Caesar's Palace and a high-end shopping mall that was on top of the ocean?

http://www.thepiershopsatcaesars.com/

When you hit 2nd year onwards, you could rake in a few extra thousand a year hardly doing any real work by taking on the restraint beeper. The attendings didn't care so they offered it to the resident. If a person is put in restraints, you got to drive to the hospital to document what happened, but such things hardly ever happened. For the most part you just carried and so long as you were within 1 hour of the hospital you could do anything you wanted.

Miss those days. No ocean to see in Ohio.

Lake Erie can count as a freshwater ocean.
 
I think it really depends on the applicant.

For myself, as an older applicant with a family, location was VERY important to us...but not in the "we want a cool city" sense.

Our criteria for "best location" included: Population Size, City Size (in sq. miles, or km if you prefer metrics), Cost-of-Living (including housing costs, utility costs, taxes, etc), Weather, Proximity to Home/Family, Traffic and Commute Time, Crime, Job Market for Wife, Schools for the Kid (Middle, High, and in-state college tuition and acceptance rates...although the higher education was less important since who knows what will happen, but was still considered), "Personality" of the city (does it fit with our personality, i.e. could we live there happily?), Potential Job Market for Dr. Digitlnoize post-residency (and post C&A Fellowship), Friends/Family already present in the area, Culture present or accessible, population growth, economic growth, development, Did the housing market tank when the bubble burst or not, % unemployment, % of residents with higher education degrees, Air Quality (higher pollution, particularly the smaller particle sizes is associated with an increased cardiovascular risk, plus we all have pretty bad environmental allergies, and pollution also makes that worse), and about a billion other criteria.

Oof.

Now, obviously, although we LOOKED at all those things, it really is more of an overall picture. Some things were much more important to us than others. For example, I am still ranking a very large city with horrible pollution and not-great crime pretty highly because despite those negative things, we LOVED the city, and LOVED the program.

So, it really was about a balance of finding the location that was right for my family + the program that was right for me.

Luckily, in our field there are a LOT of GREAT programs. Any program in my Top 10 could have easily been my #1. They're all amazing places that anyone would be lucky to train. So, very minor things wound up differentiating them from one another.

The decision is SO personal that I think it's very difficult to make a judgement of "always pick location over program" or vice versa. Let's look at some example:

Program A:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Strong
Work Load: Pushing Limits
Location: Large City in the Northeast

Program B:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Strong
Workload: Reasonable, but not slack
Location: Small College Town in the Midwest

Program C:
Academics/Training: Fair
Research: Strong
Workload: Pushing Limits
Location: Awesome/Hip City on a Coast

Program D:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Weak
Workload: Light, well-balanced.
Location: Small City in the South

What do you pick? It's up to you. Many people here would probably argue for Program A, the Ivy in the Big City. They might be right, for many people.

For me, and my family, the answer is probably more B and D.

For a young single person, they might like C better.

There are many other permutations of this, but the point is that the decision is VERY dependent on your personal situation and desires. Do you want research? Do you want a Big Name on your CV? Do you want work-life balance? Fellowships? Didactics? Do you learn better by seeing a zillion patients a day, or by having time to read about the few patients you do see? Do you thrive under pressure or collapse under it?

Again, I've been VERY impressed with the variety of options available to aspiring psychiatrists for training. Define what YOU mean by "Great City" and "Great Program" then find the best combination FOR YOU.
 
I think it really depends on the applicant.

For myself, as an older applicant with a family, location was VERY important to us...but not in the "we want a cool city" sense.

Our criteria for "best location" included: Population Size, City Size (in sq. miles, or km if you prefer metrics), Cost-of-Living (including housing costs, utility costs, taxes, etc), Weather, Proximity to Home/Family, Traffic and Commute Time, Crime, Job Market for Wife, Schools for the Kid (Middle, High, and in-state college tuition and acceptance rates...although the higher education was less important since who knows what will happen, but was still considered), "Personality" of the city (does it fit with our personality, i.e. could we live there happily?), Potential Job Market for Dr. Digitlnoize post-residency (and post C&A Fellowship), Friends/Family already present in the area, Culture present or accessible, population growth, economic growth, development, Did the housing market tank when the bubble burst or not, % unemployment, % of residents with higher education degrees, Air Quality (higher pollution, particularly the smaller particle sizes is associated with an increased cardiovascular risk, plus we all have pretty bad environmental allergies, and pollution also makes that worse), and about a billion other criteria.

Oof.

Now, obviously, although we LOOKED at all those things, it really is more of an overall picture. Some things were much more important to us than others. For example, I am still ranking a very large city with horrible pollution and not-great crime pretty highly because despite those negative things, we LOVED the city, and LOVED the program.

So, it really was about a balance of finding the location that was right for my family + the program that was right for me.

Luckily, in our field there are a LOT of GREAT programs. Any program in my Top 10 could have easily been my #1. They're all amazing places that anyone would be lucky to train. So, very minor things wound up differentiating them from one another.

The decision is SO personal that I think it's very difficult to make a judgement of "always pick location over program" or vice versa. Let's look at some example:

Program A:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Strong
Work Load: Pushing Limits
Location: Large City in the Northeast

Program B:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Strong
Workload: Reasonable, but not slack
Location: Small College Town in the Midwest

Program C:
Academics/Training: Fair
Research: Strong
Workload: Pushing Limits
Location: Awesome/Hip City on a Coast

Program D:
Academics/Training: Strong
Research: Weak
Workload: Light, well-balanced.
Location: Small City in the South

What do you pick? It's up to you. Many people here would probably argue for Program A, the Ivy in the Big City. They might be right, for many people.

For me, and my family, the answer is probably more B and D.

For a young single person, they might like C better.

There are many other permutations of this, but the point is that the decision is VERY dependent on your personal situation and desires. Do you want research? Do you want a Big Name on your CV? Do you want work-life balance? Fellowships? Didactics? Do you learn better by seeing a zillion patients a day, or by having time to read about the few patients you do see? Do you thrive under pressure or collapse under it?

Again, I've been VERY impressed with the variety of options available to aspiring psychiatrists for training. Define what YOU mean by "Great City" and "Great Program" then find the best combination FOR YOU.

:thumbup:...Spoken like a big dog (whatever that means lol)
 
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