Program X vs Y

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Seldon1985

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Hey everyone,

I noticed that in years past, people who had interview conflicts would ask opinions about going to program X vs Y. I was hoping we could start that, since the opinions/advice on this forum have been helpful to the vast majority of us. Without having a chance to actually go to see what these programs are like, its hard to say which one would fit me, but it is what it is. I'm interested in academics for what thats worth. Here are my conflicts, any advice?

1) U of Maryland vs UNC
2) UCLA vs VCU
3) Case vs CPMC

Many thanks!

Seldon
 
1) U of Maryland vs UNC
This is a tough one as both programs are quite good. I would go with your regional preferece for this one.

2) UCLA vs VCU
Due to recent developments over the last few years UCLA > VCU

3) Case vs CPMC

If you are really interested in academics Case > CPMC. However CPMC will give you access to the awesome job market on the West Coast.
 
Now that I'm living in the area, I've had some more exposure to UMD. Radonc is very strong there - they have big names, great technology, lots of volume and I really think highly of them. My partner went there, and they are very well trained. I think the one weakness might be gyn, and I think they get shipped somewhere for that, not a huge deal, unless that is a specialty you are interested in.

Don't know about the rest of them. I'd way rather live in SF then Cleveland, LA rather than Richmond. People are saying that UCLA is improving, so maybe that's the case.
 
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This is a tough one as both programs are quite good. I would go with your regional preferece for this one.


Due to recent developments over the last few years UCLA > VCU



If you are really interested in academics Case > CPMC. However CPMC will give you access to the awesome job market on the West Coast.

Are the recent developments you are referring to with UCLA or VCU?
 
Cleveland Clinic vs. UNC

and

Suny Downstate vs. Case
(I think this one's pretty clear...but if there's something I don't know, let me know because I'd rather be in New York given appropriate justification)
Thanks again!

Also one other thought for Seldon...I'm under the impression that UNC is interviewing a ton of people this year (beyond the usual 10:1 ratio), I'm keeping that in mind too...
 
Also one other thought for Seldon...I'm under the impression that UNC is interviewing a ton of people this year (beyond the usual 10:1 ratio), I'm keeping that in mind too...[/QUOTE]


I tend to caution people against taking this approach when interviewing/ranking places. Always remember that the match is designed to give applicant preference! So, if you like the place, rank it highly! I had a friend last year in a different field who was in love with a particular place but did not think she could match there. After some thorough convincing she ranked that place #1 and matched there! Not always the case, surely, but you can't match there if you don't rank it, or don't rank it strictly based on how you think they will rank you or the ratio of applicants:spots.

No one but your pride should care if you match at your #1 spot or your #10, but you can't go to that great destination if it's not on the list where YOU want it to be.
 
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Now that I'm living in the area, I've had some more exposure to UMD. Radonc is very strong there - they have big names, great technology, lots of volume and I really think highly of them. My partner went there, and they are very well trained. I think the one weakness might be gyn, and I think they get shipped somewhere for that, not a huge deal, unless that is a specialty you are interested in.

Don't know about the rest of them. I'd way rather live in SF then Cleveland, LA rather than Richmond. People are saying that UCLA is improving, so maybe that's the case.

I believe UMD ships their residents to WashU for GYN.
 
I should mention that posting in these threads is like kicking a hornet's nest. There are so many individual factors that go into these decisions that is pretty silly to ask complete strangers to pick a program for you.

With that said, let the silliness commence!

Cleveland Clinic vs. UNC
Both are excellent, boils down to where youd' rather live

Suny Downstate vs. Case
Again, not a big difference between them but I would vote Case.

carrotbanana said:
NYU vs. Utah vs. Wake Forest
Largely equivalent. For me personally I would take NYU > Wake > Utah but that's because I don't have any family or friends in or around Utah.

Case vs. UVA
UVA. Their new cancer center sounds/looks awesome plus overall stronger department.
 
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Thanks for the info in this thread, I realize it's completely subjective and prob unfair but useful regardless.
Tufts vs Jefferson
MUSC vs Minn
 
You know, it's pretty pathetic that I'm the only one who is getting baited into making these choices. Take with a several containers of Morton's. :meanie:

Drexel v. Baylor?

Equivalent, go with your preferred location

Louisville v. Downstate?

I'd give KY the slight edge.

Rochester v. Roswell Park?

I'd give Roswell the slight edge.

nitroprusside said:
beaumont vs. UPMC?
Though UPMC is a good program, I think Beaumont (overall) is a stronger department.
 
You are correct that both Drexel and Baylor are on probation, so I can see how an applicant would be uneasy or have a difficult time deciding between the two. I know nothing of Baylor, but I am a Drexel resident, so can give you my perspective about our program.

While our program is still officially on probation, we are expecting (hoping) to see that change in January. We had our site visit earlier this year and have so far had very favorable comments from the RRC - but the official word will come in January. Our Chair is expecting full accredidation, but of course, there are no guarantees in this process until you get the final word.

The main reason that our program was put on probation boiled down to number of full-time faculty at Hahnemann Hospital, which was designated as our primary site until recently (it is now changed to Abington Hospital - a very good change for the program, excellent hospital). By ACGME policy, a primary site hospital must have 4 full-time faculty and we only had 3 when we were reviewed. We are a small program of 5 residents, and those residents cover two hospitals. Between the two hospitals, there are 6 faculty, so never a time that 2 residents are with one attending. Exposure to adequate variety and numbers of cases has certainly never been a problem either. Nonetheless, the 4 faculty rule was the stance of the ACGME. There were no other glaring deficiencies in the structure of the program.

I will tell you that I would put the clinical training at Drexel up against any other program in the country. As a medical student, I did 4 away rotations, including some of the best in the country, so I know what is out there. We are not a strong academic program in terms of research (although even that is changing for the better recently) but the clinical training is very strong. Since we cover both an academic and a private hospital, you get a good feel of both academic medicine and private practice, which I think is a real bonus. Brachy training is second-to-none. High peds volume. Strong SBRT. Abundant opportunity for research. I have been able to work directly under Luther Brady who is my research mentor and have had excellent research opportunities as well as dedicated research time in both the lab as well as clinical work. It's one of those things that you can either pursue or not depending on your level of interest.

Our Physics and Radbio didactics are outstanding and also a very strong aspect of the program. Our residents consistently score in the >90th percentile on the Physics boards. All residents have passed both clinical and written boards, at least for the last several years.

In summary, despite the probationary status, I would not hesitate to accept a spot at Drexel. The program was a bit turbulent when I first started a few years ago, but the dust has definitely settled and headed in the right direction. PM me if any questions.
 
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You are correct that both Drexel and Baylor are on probation, so I can see how an applicant would be uneasy or have a difficult time deciding between the two. I know nothing of Baylor, but I am a Drexel resident, so can give you my perspective about our program.

While our program is still officially on probation, we are expecting (hoping) to see that change in January. We had our site visit earlier this year and have so far had very favorable comments from the RRC - but the official word will come in January. Our Chair is expecting full accredidation, but of course, there are no guarantees in this process until you get the final word.

The main reason that our program was put on probation boiled down to number of full-time faculty at Hahnemann Hospital, which was designated as our primary site until recently (it is now changed to Abington Hospital - a very good change for the program, excellent hospital). By ACGME policy, a primary site hospital must have 4 full-time faculty and we only had 3 when we were reviewed. We are a small program of 5 residents, and those residents cover two hospitals. Between the two hospitals, there are 6 faculty, so never a time that 2 residents are with one attending. Exposure to adequate variety and numbers of cases has certainly never been a problem either. Nonetheless, the 4 faculty rule was the stance of the ACGME. There were no other glaring deficiencies in the structure of the program.

I will tell you that I would put the clinical training at Drexel up against any other program in the country. As a medical student, I did 4 away rotations, including some of the best in the country, so I know what is out there. We are not a strong academic program in terms of research (although even that is changing for the better recently) but the clinical training is very strong. Since we cover both an academic and a private hospital, you get a good feel of both academic medicine and private practice, which I think is a real bonus. Brachy training is second-to-none. High peds volume. Strong SBRT. Abundant opportunity for research. I have been able to work directly under Luther Brady who is my research mentor and have had excellent research opportunities as well as dedicated research time in both the lab as well as clinical work. It's one of those things that you can either pursue or not depending on your level of interest.

Our Physics and Radbio didactics are outstanding and also a very strong aspect of the program. Our residents consistently score in the >90th percentile on the Physics boards. All residents have passed both clinical and written boards, at least for the last several years.

In summary, despite the probationary status, I would not hesitate to accept a spot at Drexel. The program was a bit turbulent when I first started a few years ago, but the dust has definitely settled and headed in the right direction. PM me if any questions.

According to the ACGME website, Baylor is not on probation.

There are three programs on probation: Drexel, Loma Linda and UC Ivine.
 
That's my bad if I misinformed about Baylor..I had heard somewhere they were on probation, but I may be wrong. Was not trying to speak ill of their program - but the purpose of the thread is comparing programs, so if you are comparing two programs on probation, that is a consideration. But if Baylor is not on probation, my mistake. Maybe a Baylor resident can clear that up.

Not sure if Drexel has sent out all their invites. However, I do know that they changed the interview dates (now both in January). The December 10 day was cancelled.
 
Have a conflict and need to decide between NYU vs Utah. I know very little about either program, other than what was discussed above. From reading this forum it seems that perhaps Utah is slightly better regarded if one does not take location into consideration. Does anyone have any insight on this?
 
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Have a conflict and need to decide between NYU vs Utah. I know very little about either program, other than what was discussed above. From reading this forum it seems that perhaps Utah is slightly better regarded if one does not take location into consideration. Does anyone have any insight on this?

IMO NYU is in a preferred location, but if you are comfortable with being in Utah, seems like they have a bigger program there (residents + attendings). I really can't comment on how that translates to program quality, but it might be an indication of patient volume/departmental resources.

http://medicine.utah.edu/radoncol/residency/residents.htm

vs.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/radonc/training/overview.html
 
I went to the U. of Utah for med school. LOVED the location. It is outdoor paradise if you are into that stuff. The Huntsman Cancer Institute is a short 20-30 minute drive from some of the best skiing in the world, so many of the residents have season passes.

I can't speak highly enough of the radonc program there. Beautiful cancer center right at the base of the mountains. Large catchment area so, as a result, wide variety of cases.

It was a very academic program when I was a medical student with extremely productive residents. In fact, the program had the highest publication per resident ratio of any in the country:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19131182

I was not native to Utah, but really enjoyed my 4 years there and would rate the location very highly personally.
 
any other applicants (or current residents) have thoughts on how these 2 programs stack up? i really like the feel of both. not the most academic, but the clinical training and teaching really seemed strong at both. DC seems to be a way cooler city so that's where i'd lean (though the cinci skyline chilli was the BEST!)
 
There is no reputational difference between the two programs. I lived a summer in Cincinnati, and I currently live in the District. DC is a fantastic place to be a resident, although pretty expensive. I love this city, and would recommend it to any one. Cincinnati is nice and all, but living in DC is a great experience, at least for a 4 year stint. It seems like if you train here, you have a good chance of staying in the area (a lot of my partners trained at either NIH or GTown).

I've worked a little bit with the Georgetown group, and they seem okay. Like my alma mater, they are very invested in their CyberKnife and there are dueling radio commercials between them and one of the "St." hospitals. DC is a very interesting medical community. Unlike most big cities, I don't think patients really have a great opinion of the university hospital. There is a strong academic-level private medical center in Northern Virginia, and then up the road is the mecca of American medicine at Johns Hopkins. I'd even say University of Maryland is more respected that GTown, GWU, Wash Hospital Center, or Howard.
 
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I'm in training at Cinci currently, and I'd put the clinical training up against anyone. We have attendings who are very interested in teaching, and we have great hands-on experience with treatment planning in multiple modalities, strong SBRT and brachy, strong peds, etc. We have not traditionally been strong in bench research, but that is also changing, as we have an MD/PhD starting next year, and he's done some bench work with one of the labs here as a med student. We're expanding as a department, having hired 3 new attendings in the past two years, with talk of expanding facilities to handle the increasing patient load. Sorry to sound like a commercial. I think we have an under-rated program and relatively happy residents.

As far as UW, I am also a Wisconsinite by birth and rotated at UW as a med student. I would have gone to UW in a heartbeat. I think they had a stellar program, hands down.
 
UW vs. UCLA

In pitting UW vs. UCLA, I will assume that you mean the University of Washington based upon geography. However, I was fortunate enough to interview at both programs last year, so I will try to shed some light on both programs.

The University of Washington was definitely the hardest working program of the 11 that I interviewed at last year. Didactics begin everyday at 7:00 a.m. and are at the main UW facility. Unfortunately, tele-conferencing from the other facilities is not available, so you have to report to the main facility for didactics and then commute through traffic to the SCCA, VA and/or Harborview if you are not at the main campus (major pain in the butt, if you ask me). On busy rotations such as Head & Neck and CNS the residents said it was not uncommon to be at work until 7 or 8 p.m. Though they worked long hours, the residents did not seem disgruntled or upset with the arrangement (then again, it's interview day and everybody at every program puts on their "happy face"). The research opportunities left much to be desired and I clearly remember that there was not much infrastructure or databases created to allow for retrospective studies. I don't mind working hard and consider my work ethic to be one of my strongest assets, but at the same time our field is so complex (and foreign to the RO-1 and RO-2) that you need time to be able to study to learn the material in the abstract before applying it to your patients. I was disappointed in the program because I really wanted to rank UW highly for geographic purposes, but could not for the aforementioned reasons. That being said, many of the residents said that they were happy with their training and were willing to take the negative aspects of the program for the opportunity to live in Seattle.

As the above poster mentioned, the University of Wisconsin is a phenomenal program in every sense imaginable. The residents seemed incredibly (and genuinely) happy with their training, the research opportunities were phenomenal, the facilities were the best that I saw on the interview circuit (beautifully done just two years ago) and it obviously is a "top tier" program (though below the "big three" - MSKCC, MDACC, Harvard). The education is a top priority and the residents felt that didactics were one of the strong points of the program. Every attending gets one day off/week to do research and so obviously the resident working with them gets the day off as well to do research and/or study. More than any program, I sensed a tremendous "family atmosphere" in terms of the attendings being on first name basis with the residents and the residents hanging out together frequently. Personally, I love Madison as it is continually ranked as one of the "top places to live" and is a great college town. The major downside is that the warm-weather-loving folks will be scared off by the winters, but I personally love the change of seasons. Obviously, I ranked the program very, very highly.

Best of luck to all of those applying this year and in constructing your rank lists.
 
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thank you so much, Cyberknife. I did mean U wash. I'm still very confused about what to expect in 5 years from now in terms of reputation. it seems like they're both at about the same level. it seems also that cancer in general is ranked higher at Uwash but UCLA is not far off. Do you think the UCLA chair would make for better future potential?
 
In pitting UW vs. UCLA, I will assume that you mean the University of Washington based upon geography. However, I was fortunate enough to interview at both programs last year, so I will try to shed some light on both programs.

Sorry! Geographical bias, I guess. Thanks for correcting me.
 
Any thoughts on the Moffitt program? It's relatively new, but it seems like they have all the makings of a good program. I was impressed on my interview. I'm trying to figure out where it stands compared to programs like Maryland, Emory, UAB, Miami. Thanks.
 
I don’t know Moffitt very well, in general for very new programs its hard to get a good idea of the quality of the residency training since there is not a lot of history to go on. You will have to make a judgement for yourself on the interview day, or rotate there to truly understand how well they do training their residents
Emory is an outstanding program, without question I thought it was one of the most underrated and impressive places I interviewed at. There was relatively little about it on the SDN forums and as a consequence it really took me by surprise the day of the interview. Starting with the chairman its important to realize that Walter Curran is a GIANT in rad onc. Currently he is the chair of RTOG (yes…chairman of RTOG), and very well know for major clinical trials. He is extremely well liked and respected by faculty across the country, and according to the residents great to work with. The rest of the large faculty (around 15 or 16 attendings..I think) at Emory included a variety of big name oral board examiners in various disease sites. Definitely an impressive crew that included a lot of MD/PhD’s and very well funded basic science Rad Oncers. That being said this place has a HUGE clinical volume, and the residents get a lot of experience (including peds, prostate brachy, radiosurgery, everthing) and they work very hard, they do get 6 months of devoted research but get ready to work if you go to Emory. They cover multiple satellite facilities, all equipped with video conferencing, and close (furthest was about 5 miles give or take). One of the best features was Friday’s academic day, where all the residents report to the main campus for lecutures. The entire morning is devoted and protected for resident didactics and extensive Rad Bio and physics review, no pages, no isos, no treatment checks = pretty awesome. Residents are quick to say they work hard, and are not at all coddled, but are generally happy with the quality of training and experience. Geographically Atlanta is a pretty awesome place to live, big city (for the south), cheap, with great weather, what more could you want...
 
Sorry for the quasi necro-bump, but thought it would be better to bump this thread then start a new one!

What about Maryland vs MCW vs Beaumont?

They are all obviously solid institutions, but which do you think are better?

How about Loyola vs University of Iowa?

Thanks!
 
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Sorry for the quasi necro-bump, but thought it would be better to bump this thread then start a new one!

What about Maryland vs MCW vs Beaumont?

They are all obviously solid institutions, but which do you think are better?

How about Loyola vs University of Iowa?

Thanks!

Big grain of salt, I trained a Beaumont.

Beaumont- recent grads have had awesome academic placement (MDACC, Mayo, 2 WashU, etc) as well as private practice in desirable locations (West Coast, Chicago, etc). easy to go eithe way from this program. There is some flux here with faculty leaving and the chair being interim but in my humble, biased, opinion this is still a top 15 program. The resources that made the research engine go are still there and the faculty that remain are extremely supportive of resident research.

MCW- i don't have a huge amount of experience but what I do know is excellent. Residents are extremely happy from what i have heard; I don't know if someone else can speak to job placement, etc.

Maryland- One of their grads last year is at Yale and two years ago, grad did an MDACC fellowship. Doing some really intersting research on single fraction breast (Gammapod?). Getting a proton center.

Everyone is going to rank these three programs differently; do you want an academic career or private? Do you want a program with a lot of procedures? Do you know where you want to live long term? All thes things factor in so my ordering could be the exact opposite of yours.

Good point Wagy! I'd like to practice somewhere in the Midwest or the South, and am open to either academics or private really, will depend on the details when the time comes. I certainly don't want to close the academic door in any way.

Does training in the region you want to practice help down the line?

Thanks for the advice, hopefully these details help...
 
MDACC v MSKCC

specifically regarding job placement. it seems that, despite its reputation, MDACC-trained radoncs are not as widely distributed as I would expect. In contrast, MSKCC graduates seem to place very well all over the country. Thoughts?
 
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UCSD vs. Columbia... in terms of quality of education, atmosphere (referring to the educational atmosphere, not the the weather/city life), research, and job placement in academics.
 
So as we are just a few days away from rank due date I was hoping to hear what you guys think of:

Yale vs. Hopkins

Both are wonderful programs but I have to make a decision soon. I am interested in an academic career and prospective clinical research.
 
MDACC v MSKCC

specifically regarding job placement. it seems that, despite its reputation, MDACC-trained radoncs are not as widely distributed as I would expect. In contrast, MSKCC graduates seem to place very well all over the country. Thoughts?

Talking to everyone in terms of training MDACC = MSKCC

But in terms of job placement, I have heard MSKCC>MDACC

There was a post by GFunk about this awhile ago:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=42456&page=6

Here are the cliff notes from his post (and his rankings):


#1 Harvard
No real surprise here. With three sites, tons of attendings, and nearly every from of XRT technology you will be capable of doing anything Rad Onc related coming out of here. Perhaps equally important, the Harvard name is golden. This is one of the few programs which sends it graduates to every corner of the United States. A lot of this has to do with the fact that they graduate EIGHT people a year, but you will be able to find a job nearly wherever you'd like.

#2 MSKCC
Also, no big surprise. The volume here is a bit on the obscene side and many residents gripe about it. I think Simon Powell is a huge plus for Memorial and his strengths in basic research really complements Memorial's reputation as a clinical powerhouse. Grads (not surprisingly) tend to cluster around the NY tri-state area. The faculty here are just out of this world.


#5 MDACC
MDACC occupies a fairly unique position as a cancer megapolis, even more so than Harvard which can appear fragmented. Each subsite in MDACC is larger than 90% of Rad Onc departments which should tell you something. Houston is not my cup of tea, but it may rock your boat. I think MDACC tends to recruit outstanding residents to be sure and many of them are unique in their skills and talents outside of medicine, I believe. However, in my (uninformed) opinion, the job placement of their graduates is possibly not as great as the institution itself
 
UCSD vs. Columbia... in terms of quality of education, atmosphere (referring to the educational atmosphere, not the the weather/city life), research, and job placement in academics.

With UCSD still being "new" I think I would have to say Columbia>UCSD if location (e.g. weather) is of no consequence to you.
 
So as we are just a few days away from rank due date I was hoping to hear what you guys think of:

Yale vs. Hopkins

Both are wonderful programs but I have to make a decision soon. I am interested in an academic career and prospective clinical research.

I actually think this is a wash. Flip a coin. Both excellent programs.
 
A friend of mine was wondering about Stanford vs. UCSF. Thoughts?

I think Stanford>UCSF just based on reputation and speaking to others. However, I think plenty would disagree on this. I guess the question is, how do they like SF vs Palo Alto?
 
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