Programs in the Southwest

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

lockian

Magical Thinking Encouraged
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
514
Reaction score
338
So, having completed my tour of the Southwest and Texas, I think (as predicted) my top 5 will be from there. At this point, I'd really appreciate if people could weign in and confirm the relative prestige of these places, as well as personal experiences with the training.

So, in no particular order, my favorites are:

-- U of Arizona Tucson South Campus -- one of those programs that wasn't really on my radar initially, but it's basically an academic program with a strong service component. Most of the patients are high acuity and underserved. Residents are quite happy and rave about the supervision and teaching. Not sure about the prestige of the place. Shared resources with U of A.

--U of Arizona Tucson Main Campus -- this and the above are in a way one program because they share didactics and clinical sites (it's just a matter of balance), but this is the more traditional academic side of it. Maybe a little too VA heavy, though the VA is an well-resourced and relatively diverse one.

-- Baylor -- Academic powerhouse with great teaching, has everything including Menninger, a treatment facility for the wealthier, more well-resources population. Happy, close-knit resident group. The only downside is that I am not a fan of Houston. The humidity, the traffic, the meh aesthetics of both city and hospitals, the fact that most residents and staff live near the hospital and you'll be running into them when you step out to go shopping... Not my cup of tea.

-- U of NM -- cool stuff like native american, rural, and substance abuse psychiatry. Well-regarded for teaching and research, though not quite a Baylor or UIC. The only downside from my perspective is that I'm not sure how much the program wanted me, and the interview performance might not've been my best due to the day being kicked off with a somewhat intimidating group interview and being asked "why here" over and over.

--U of Colorado -- well regarded, strong on teaching and research, wealthy and underserved, lots of niche specialties, huge catchment area... But I actually don't like the fact that Denver is such a "young" city. I kind of prefer to be antisocial and start settling down. Also it does in fact get cold.
 
Last edited:
Baylor does a good job selling the program, but in my opinion, it isn't a top 2-3 program in the state.

Colorado is probably the most competitive on your list.
Which are the best Texas programs, in your opinion, and why?
 
UTSW-Dallas and UTMB are easily the most competitive. Dallas has great sites, many sub-specialties, and focus on education over scut. UTMB has low call and allows for residents to explore their own interests. Faculty are very supportive.

I'd argue UTSW-Austin is now 3. It's Austin plus UTSW improving the training/resources.

Multiple programs in TX probably tie for #4.
 
I would say U of A South Campus is the worst of the bunch from your list. Their residents are a bit more worked than average. Of course, it's still a decent programs...just matters on what you want. I would say New Mexico or Colorado is the best from the list based on what you want. From my knowledge, NM is more cushy in terms of work hours.
 
UTSW-Dallas and UTMB are easily the most competitive. Dallas has great sites, many sub-specialties, and focus on education over scut. UTMB has low call and allows for residents to explore their own interests. Faculty are very supportive.

I'd argue UTSW-Austin is now 3. It's Austin plus UTSW improving the training/resources.

Multiple programs in TX probably tie for #4.

I've recently finished interviewing across the South, and I can't really disagree with you any more. In terms of competitiveness I'd say BCM, UTSW, and Emory are all tied at the top. Maybe we value different things. I was initially wary of the Baylor program because you have a long history of negative posts toward it but you must have interviewed a long time ago. I actually think the description given in the OP isn't far off the mark. For what it's worth, here are my quick impressions of some southern programs (I dropped MUSC):

UT Houston - HCPC is large and there seem to be research opportunities aplenty at this program which seems to have a biological focus. The program leadership is currently in a transition phase but I think that things will overall be okay, everyone seems pretty supportive. The non-HCPC rotations felt a little lacking to be honest, but I suppose coming from a program in the South with a large VA, county, and university hospital this is to be expected. I didn't get the feeling that these non-HCPC rotations were really valued by everyone, but they do have MD Anderson which is awesome for people interested in Psycho-Onc. Houston is a fun and diverse city, the weather is pretty good/swampy, and it's still affordable even though it's getting more popular. It's not a pretty city like Austin or Nashville but as my Uber driver said, "People come here to work hard" and I kind of appreciated the grit, it felt real. HCPC is not in the same league as WPIC when you consider comparing the two largest standalone psych facilities in the country, but if you liked the idea of that level of patient pathology and that volume/dataset at Pitt but weren't enamored with the city (which I liked, tbh)/the cold, you could consider UT Houston. Wasn't a big fan of some of the questions I got asked on interview day (don't ask me how I'm going to rank you).

UTSW - Very similar to Emory and BCM in terms of the volume, pathology, types of sites, program size, and therapy training. Brenner is warm and fuzzy and seems to be a good ally to the students, they're a friendly program overall that seems to, like Emory and BCM, draw a lot of bright people moving or returning to Texas after doing medical school elsewhere. C/L is an area they're addressing here because it used to be a rough service. The new Parkland is gorgeous. They have tons of electives and seem to have a pretty flexible schedule. Of Emory, BCM, and UTSW it has the best pay and the easiest call schedule. To me, it's a little too laid back but for people with families/starting families you get a program where you won't be held back in any way career-wise and is fairly cushy. Excellent therapy training. Residents seem to go kind of evenly into academic/PP/and fellowship after finishing and were easygoing and a lot of fun. Dallas is an OK city IMO. Don't have too many notes on this program because it was my first, sorry.

BCM - You get the 3 hospitals plus Menninger, which is as much a Disneyland of Psychiatry as WPIC but in a totally different way. There aren't many places left like this in the country, it's quite a unique experience. There's a strong psychodynamic tradition here and many of the residents cited this as a reason for choosing Baylor over other programs. They've also started a Research track, which makes sense given the abundance of resources in the Texas Medical Center. Some cool stuff being done in addictions research here. Facilities are older than UTSW or Emory but the diversity and pathology make up for it - probably the widest range of patient diversity outside of some NYC and LA programs (ethnically, socially, and economically). C/L here is weaker than UTSW or Emory because there is no dedicated fellowship, although the friendly and supportive PD/leadership (I interviewed with all of them) and residents assured me that because of their location they get all sorts of crazy consults. A recent alum also just graduated from the Brigham Psychosomatic fellowship for what that's worth. There's also Texas Childrens if you're interested in child psych and a state hospital rotation which will be useful for anybody interested in Forensics (Dr. Stolar the PD is also Forensics boarded). I was worried about the negative rep of this program from SDN so I asked about the call schedule and when it was presented on interview day it didn't seem that different from any other program (UTSW excepted), and I think it was lighter than Emory (rough PGY1) and definitely better than Duke where I wanted to give the residents a hug because they looked so beat. The Baylor program also recently lessened call responsibilities on one of the harder PGY 2 rotations (Methodist) and residents have been very receptive to the change. Pay isn't as good as UTSW but the city is a lot better for young adults. Residents go evenly into academic/PP/fellowship, and seem to be bright, fun, and enjoy each others company.

UT Austin - Man, I was excited about this place. I really was. I love Austin! But I totally disagree with proclamaitions of it being a top program. Not even close. It is still very much a community program. Austin is smaller than these other cities, and unlike Vandy which has a big catch area, there are other places to go in Texas, so I don't know if you'll get the volume, diversity, or psychopathology you would in other programs. The new faculty hires have very impressive pedigrees - clearly people want to move here and they have the money to make some nice acquisitions. The new hospital should also be quite nice. But there weren't enough old-hat attendings there for my liking, you know, the ones with serious experience. There was a lot of promise and buzzwords about the future, felt like I was in an episode of Silicon Valley. I don't care to hear about the Cardiac Cath lab's location in your new hospital or your medschool's "innovative" curriculum that's about 8 years behind the curve. Until this stuff happens, it's just words. They want to be a tier-1 institute in 10 years. If it happens, I'll be the first one to applaud, until then, it still feels like a community program. There's nothing wrong with this on face value, but that's not how it's sold. They pitch it as the opportunity to get in on the ground level of something big and make your mark - but I think you can do that anywhere if you're motivated. They talk about their Silicon Valley ties. The truth is, most things in SV don't turn into Twitter or Uber. They fizzle out with a whimper. Medicine needs to modernize in several ways but there's also a reason we do things the way we do, it was kind of cringe-inducing to hear experienced leaders ignore all of this in the face of buzz-y copy. Wasn't impressed by the residents either, compared to these other programs. I want this program to be good, I really do - because I'd love to work here in 10 years, but right now it's not a place I want to gamble my training on. And yeah I realize this program has been in place for a very long time, but that's just not how they're pitching it anymore, and so that's not what I felt or feel comfortable going on. Also, although TXPhysician said UTSW is supporting the program, this does not at all appear to be the case. They are a UT and the primary affiliate of UT-Austin and hope to be the flagship UT medical center in some time, but that is going to be a difficult mantle to steal from UTSW.

Emory - I feel like I'm repeating myself after UTSW and BCM. The key differences between the 3, aside from location, are that Emory has the Geri facility and the new "brain building" (I forget the real name). Big city with lots of patients and great pathology. They seem to have a lot of $$$. Residents were bright, I only met one PGY1 because apparently most of them are working quite hard and tired from their schedule (It's Grady - like Parkland and Ben Taub I expect the off-service months to be rigorous but also pretty incredible and educational. As a downside, I beliiiiieve this is the one southern program where you spend all 4 IM months doing inpatient, both BCM and UTSW let you do some outpatient, some electives/consults/palli) and for some people the idea that Psych residents will be doing med-clears in the ER is a negative (I like it). PD is pretty friendly, she's also C/L boarded and actively involved at APM. You can do med-psych rotations! A number of people come here because of an interest in Forensics. Another big, fun, affordable (relatively speaking) city with great weather. The residents didn't seem as warm or close knit as UTSW or BCM but it may have just been my interview day. Therapy was not really mentioned at all on interview day but apparently they have a psychotherapy track, not as important as at UTSW or BCM. If you want to do counseling for uni students they only let 2 residents a year do this, which was a small negative for me. All in all, a good program in a cool city.

Vandy - okay this is getting long. The small size of Nashville compared to the above 3 cities is made up for by the catchment area. Vandy has a standalone Psych hospital, 88ish beds! This is great because you'll get a unique training experience here in addition to their VA and university hospital. I really loved Nashville, it's a place I want to live in. I got the vibe that if you like the county feel of Grady et al. you won't get that sort of patient here, to be honest. They do this weird thing on interview day where they make it a point to orient you to their horrible EMR. The APD Dr. Fleisch is such an awesome woman and she has built a great community psych program from the ground-up in 3 years so she'll be a great mentor to anybody interested in program/business development or public psychiatry, I hope I get to work with her someday. The PD seems quite opinionated and dominated our conversation in a way that bothered me. He also seems to set the tone for the "evidence based therapy" focus (read: he went off on psychodynamic theory during our interview) at the program, which is a shame because they're all useful. I thought maybe this was just a thing they said until the lunchtime psychiatric case formulation in which the resident gave a very compelling psychodynamic (as well as social and biological) formulation for a patient and the (iirc) Chair pointed out to him that that's just one of many perspectives. PGY2 call schedule may have been a little rough IIRC. The residents seem to have fun and go out, they're also very diverse (like Emory and all of the Texas programs I went to) which appealed to me as a minority.

Duke - Durham is alright. It's better than when I was last here but still... you need Raleigh and Chapel Hill to have enough stuff to call this a fun place to live. Doesn't come close to the cities above in my opinion, but the weather is phenomenal in NC, the cost of living is great, there are nice beaches, forests, mountains, and just lots to do in this state which appeals to me. I liked the PD a lot, we had a great conversation and her being IM/Psych we talked a lot about the great C/L training here. This was another program where I tried to get to the truth behind a negative SDN reputation. Sadface. Not mine, okay well I too felt kinda sad after coming here but the residents just seem beat. The residents have a really high patient cap on inpatient (10? where most places were 6) and that plus a rough call schedule leads to them openly admitting the first two years are rough. They tell you in the AM intro that the program is front-loaded... every psych program is frontloaded, this is like driving a semi backwards through traffic. Psych residents are among the perkiest that you come across so it was just jarring. I think you get fine training here, I really don't remember a whole lot because it was cold and after seeing the residents I kinda checked out and knew I didn't want to come here.

MUSC - cancelled, i got tired. Charleston is AMAZING, I almost went just for the city.

Other programs in the South - didn't apply

Overall, the South is a pretty cool place to do residency; it's affordable to live in a true metropolis, the weather is nice if you can stand the heat and humidity, and the programs on the whole seem well-rounded and will give you excellent training. It's mostly a matter of where you prefer to live as I met very intelligent, friendly, and enthusiastic folks at every program and for the most part (duke, a little) none lived up to any of their negative reps on SDN.

Of the ones I interviewed at, I liked BCM the most and UTSW and Emory would probably be tied for second, but this is largely personal preference. Vanderbilt is a nice program with lots of MGH/BWH psychosomatic-boarded people, a standalone hospital, and a great APD but I didn't really hit it off w/ Dr. Cowan the PD and my issues w/ their therapy training were sticking points for me, otherwise I'd rank it higher.
 
Last edited:
If you need a frame of reference, I also received invites to Penn, Cornell, Longwood, UCSF, and WPIC so I had a good look at many of the "top programs" in Psychiatry to compare with these.
 
If you need a frame of reference, I also received invites to Penn, Cornell, Longwood, UCSF, and WPIC so I had a good look at many of the "top programs" in Psychiatry to compare with these.
Could you share your opinion on these programs in the interview review thread please? I know they've been reviewed by other people but I'm curious about your general impression of these programs.
 
I think our definitions of "competitive" are just different.

Baylor has the diversity and sites to provide excellent training. They also have some great faculty. They have a reputation for higher call and increased scut work though. Residents have transferred out due to this or at least that is what they told me. I'll admit to not interviewing at Baylor as advisors cautioned me to avoid it.

Psych applicants from TX schools generally interview at most TX locations, and AMG's generally create a match list that places UTSW-Dallas and UTMB above the others. Being involved in the selection process allowed me to see the trends. Austin is competitive mostly due to location I think. There are many top notch applicants going there with 240+ boards because of the city.

Competitiveness in a residency is much more than diversity of sites, patient diversity, and famous faculty. Location, call, fellowship quality, moonlighting, rapport with faculty, etc are major factors that influence rank lists.

Baylor is a well known institution and Menninger is beautiful. I particularly like their gym.
 
UTMB above the others.

Maybe it's just this year or the people I know, but I've talked to a lot of Texas Psych applicants this year and many people have said they didn't even apply to UTMB because of location and a lot of the ones I've spoken to who did interview there thought it was way too laid back/were concerned about the training/volume. I personally thought it was nice, especially for child, and the faculty are great, but there is a lot of moving around and I was a little concerned about the quality of inpatient experience.

I'm struggling a lot with my list, but in the end I really feel like most of the programs in Texas have strong, diverse training. Some have better names than others.
 
Last edited:
UA south campus is a bit of a war zone which you might like if you want to come out as an SMI warrior. It is very underserved and you will be getting a lot of severe psychopathology. The psych ER is packed and inpatient is packed. You will also get a lot of experience with court ordered evaluations. The research professor Dr. Breitborde is outstanding. The psychodynamic therapy professor Dr. Prichard is also outstanding. Hopefully they are still around.
 
I don't have a dog in this race since I'm just an applicant but the heavy call schedule thing is simply untrue as of 2016, so it shouldn't really be perpetuated further unless current applicants are posting the most recent information instead of former applicants (no offense intended).

Yes, UTMB, UTSW, and UT Austin are all quite laid back/chill/cushy in the call schedule, but BCM's is not particularly onerous when I compare it with Longwood or UCSF, they all seemed about on par. Maybe I just don't pay enough attention to the differences here because the call schedule to an extent wasn't the #1 thing I looked at on interview day and you could be right. In the South, at this point, Emory and Vandy, by my accounts, have very similar call schedules and BCM reduced the call burden at their most call-intensive PGY2 site starting this January according to the residents.

Re: competitiveness, I can't really say about UTMB because I didn't interview there. You can search through my old posts to find my Step 1/2 scores, I would say I'm pretty competitive and fit in better with residents at Emory, Baylor, at UTSW than Austin, Vanderbilt, or Houston (though nobody seemed... I don't know whatever the opposite of "competitive" is that isn't totally insulting). I do agree with you about the city of Austin, it has the food of Houston, the music scene of Nashville, and some of the culture of SF. The weather is still hot but a lot less humid (Barton Springs is so much fun in the summertime) and there's more to do outdoors. I think it's particularly attractive for faculty, and maybe in 8-10 years will really be something special for the residents.
 
Re: competitiveness, I can't really say about UTMB because I didn't interview there. You can search through my old posts to find my Step 1/2 scores, I would say I'm pretty competitive and fit in better with residents at Emory, Baylor, at UTSW than Austin, Vanderbilt, or Houston (though nobody seemed... I don't know whatever the opposite of "competitive" is that isn't totally insulting).

Your determination of how well you fit in with people is that you have similar step scores? Yeesh...
 
I would say U of A South Campus is the worst of the bunch from your list. Their residents are a bit more worked than average. Of course, it's still a decent programs...just matters on what you want. I would say New Mexico or Colorado is the best from the list based on what you want. From my knowledge, NM is more cushy in terms of work hours.
Any thoughts on U of Az vs U of Az South Campus? I know they're kind of two branches of the same program, but U of A is more academic vs. South Campus is more community.
 
I don't have a dog in this race since I'm just an applicant

I'm not sure anyone has a dog in this race. Baylor has done nothing against me personally. If anything, I like the place for the quality medical care received by my extended family at BCM hospitals in various fields.

I understand that you enjoyed your interview day at BCM, and the program does have its merits. I'm not trying to take away from that. BCM will surely turn residents into perfectly fine psychiatrists.

I did not apply to Baylor. My perspective is through colleagues, and being involved in academics in recent years. I've seen the applications, and each program receives a list of where their interviewees match. I knew what programs I needed to compare against to better sell the program. I also knew where to advise students to apply.

Menninger is an excellent facility, and Baylor is making an effort to improve its fellowships. Applicants can do a lot worse than Baylor.

In regards to the OP, Baylor is generally of average competitiveness in psych. Most AMG's with a decent interview can expect to match at Baylor like they could at many psych residencies. Baylor does have FMG's (not an insult but it's fact that academic centers are aiming for all AMG's). Other programs I've listed can go some years without even interviewing a single FMG due to the number of competitive AMG applicants. Some classes at the top 2-3 TX schools actually have board scores that average higher than most Ivy programs.

For prestige and difficulty to gain an acceptance, my vote would be Colorado as #1 of the 4 listed. From my colleagues, I've heard good things.
 
Baylor does have FMG's (not an insult but it's fact that academic centers are aiming for all AMG's).

This is really not true. "Top" and academic programs have different philosophies regarding IMGs. If anything, it's precisely the top programs that are prepared to take IMGs because they don't worry about some perceived reputation hit and I presume they have political clout and aren't too taken by the pressure to give US students an advantage over all else just because. Without knowing the precise circumstances it's difficult to know whether program x favors some IMGs because they can or because they have no other choice.
 
Last edited:
This is really not true. "Top" and academic programs have different philosophies regarding IMGs. If anything, it's precisely the top programs that are prepared to take IMGs because they don't worry about some perceived reputation hit and I presume they have political clout and aren't too taken by the pressure to give US students an advantage over all else just because. Without knowing the precise circumstances it's difficult to know whether program x favors some IMGs because they can or because they have no other choice.

While probably true at some places, this is not generally the case, at least in the southern states I've been involved with. I've been in the meetings where university heads discuss these exact things with program directors.

Some transfers have similar problems. There are large academic centers not allowed to take pediatric transfers into psych any longer due to lack of full funding.

As Texas has increasingly more med students than residency spots, politics has even become an issue to keep FMG's out. Texas exports trained med students because of a lack of residency positions. Exported med students are less likely to return. Politicians want to demonstrate how they are fixing this problem.
 
This is really not true. "Top" and academic programs have different philosophies regarding IMGs. If anything, it's precisely the top programs that are prepared to take IMGs because they don't worry about some perceived reputation hit and I presume they have political clout and aren't too taken by the pressure to give US students an advantage over all else just because. Without knowing the precise circumstances it's difficult to know whether program x favors some IMGs because they can or because they have no other choice.
In fairness, when particularly strong programs take IMGs, they tend to be rock stars from their home country. The ones I've seen are typically research powerhouses (who have often been post-MD and/ or PhD affiliated with U.S. research activities. Or they set up hospitals or care networks in their home countries.

Strong IMGs from abroad or American IMGs from the big four don't factor much in at the more competitive places. This trend is likely to become even more pronounced with growing medical school grads outpacing residency slots.
 
BCM - You get the 3 hospitals plus Menninger, which is as much a Disneyland of Psychiatry as WPIC but in a totally different way. There aren't many places left like this in the country, it's quite a unique experience. There's a strong psychodynamic tradition here and many of the residents cited this as a reason for choosing Baylor over other programs. They've also started a Research track, which makes sense given the abundance of resources in the Texas Medical Center. Some cool stuff being done in addictions research here. Facilities are older than UTSW or Emory but the diversity and pathology make up for it - probably the widest range of patient diversity outside of some NYC and LA programs (ethnically, socially, and economically). C/L here is weaker than UTSW or Emory because there is no dedicated fellowship, although the friendly and supportive PD/leadership (I interviewed with all of them) and residents assured me that because of their location they get all sorts of crazy consults. A recent alum also just graduated from the Brigham Psychosomatic fellowship for what that's worth. There's also Texas Childrens if you're interested in child psych and a state hospital rotation which will be useful for anybody interested in Forensics (Dr. Stolar the PD is also Forensics boarded). I was worried about the negative rep of this program from SDN so I asked about the call schedule and when it was presented on interview day it didn't seem that different from any other program (UTSW excepted), and I think it was lighter than Emory (rough PGY1) and definitely better than Duke where I wanted to give the residents a hug because they looked so beat. The Baylor program also recently lessened call responsibilities on one of the harder PGY 2 rotations (Methodist) and residents have been very receptive to the change. Pay isn't as good as UTSW but the city is a lot better for young adults. Residents go evenly into academic/PP/fellowship, and seem to be bright, fun, and enjoy each others company.

Of course it all sounds great on interview day. They do have some great resources but the problem is the structure of the program. For example, unless things have changed, you will rotate at Menninger for a few months tops. You will see far more of the VA and Ben Taub. And almost every residency program has a self-proclaimed "research track." If you are serious about research, I hope you will ask questions about what kind of research residents in the track are doing, and whether their experiences lead any of them on to full time research careers. Are the residents writing quickie literature reviews during one-month electives or are they doing bench research over the course of all four years and getting publications in basic science journals? These are questions you need to ask of all "research tracks." Find out what kind of electives they offer, too.

And Texas Children's is a renowned children's hospital that happens to have a reputation for having a longstanding stigma against psychiatry. I don't know if this reputation is accurate or not but that's the reputation. TCH does not have a child psych inpatient unit, which is why (I believe - and if I'm wrong someone can correct me) child fellows at Baylor do their inpatient training at Menninger. TCH DOES have an inpatient medical eating disorders program, however, but unless things have changed, due to some kind of institutional politics, psych residents do not get to rotate there. The peds residents do though, as part of their exposure to adolescent medicine (despite the fact that peds residents detest dealing with eating disorder patients). Baylor also has an excellent Global Medicine program, and again, psych has been slow to get involved in that.

I'm sure it has its strengths, but I wouldn't say child psych and research are the main things that Baylor is known for. I think you are right about the psychodynamic tradition being quite strong there however.
 
Top