Programs where EM runs the traumas

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

steven1174

Member
7+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Messages
25
Reaction score
0
Hey folks...I've been trying to compile a list of programs where EM runs the traumas and not just airway or switches with Trauma Surg...

So far I know of: LAC-USC

Thanks all....
 
From the interview trail, I seem to recall that EM alternates with Surgery at Carolinas. I think the same can be said of New Mexico.

It's nice to see that there are some programs where EM is on an equal footing with Surgery with respect to trauma resuscitation. One need not be a surgeon to do this, and I believe that if the ATLS guidelines were being written today, they could just well be written by EM physicians as by surgeons. I do think it says something about the standing of the emergency department within the institution if EM physicians to run trauma resuscitations or alternate with Surgery.

However, keep in mind that trauma is only a small part of EM, and many of the EM residents I've spoken with find trauma resuscitations rather boring. For the most part, it's just an algorithm. To many, working up a complicated medical patient with dyspnea or abdominal pain, or a child with a fever is much more interesting.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of airway management. At many of the best EM programs in the country, EM residents handle "just the airway," except when they are rotating on the Trauma surgery service.
 
Detroit recieving alternate daily between surg on trauma

wayne state sinai grace--prob one of the best trauma experiences i've seen...they run all the traumas for the most part.
 
Albert Einstein in Philadelphia rotates each day between surg and em.
 
Maine alternates
Mayo alternates
Hennepin runs all, trauma surg shows up to all obviously, but doesn't do much until EM says
Regions alternates


EM resident ALWAYS ALWAYS has airway management. The only alternating responsibilities are who stands over and barks orders/dictates flow and some programs will alternate procedural responsibilities.

I interviewed at several other places but don't remember for sure how they ran the show.
 
Integris Southwest Medical Center in Oklahoma City, OK

-EM runs the traumas (EM is the only residency program in that hospital, which has the busiest ER in the state.)
 
St. Luke's-Roosevelt. Trauma shows up for consult but we are ultimate managers of the trauma until admitted
 
Sinai-Grace Hospital..part of Wayne State University the EM residents run the traumas and do the procedures day in and day out. Probably one of the programs out there where the residents are very well versed in a ton of procedures. Actually is probably the busiest trauma center in the city of Detroit.
 
Christiana...

Trauma Alert = ED management. ED runs; trauma intern shows up (in case admision is needed)

Trauma Code = Surgical Management with EM as airway.

Depends on severity of insult. Seems to work.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Integris Southwest Medical Center in Oklahoma City, OK

-EM runs the traumas (EM is the only residency program in that hospital, which has the busiest ER in the state.)

I am just curious why this program is not listed in the saem.org catalog? I had heard oklahoma city used to have an EM program but it was shut down back a few years ago?

Is the catalog at saem.org just out of date? How long has this program been around and how many residents per year? I cant seem to find much information about it.

EDIT
Thanks for the info, I did finally find this in case anyone else wants to read:

"The Emergency Medicine Residency Program at INTEGRIS Southwest Medical Center is an AOA approved three-year program with 18 residency positions. Applicants must be graduates of an osteopathic medical college and must have completed an internship prior to beginning the program. The Emergency Department at INTEGRIS Southwest Medical Center, the busiest Emergency Department in Oklahoma City, provides care for 5000 patients per month. The Director of Medical Education and Program Director is Martin McBee, DO and Assistant Program Director is Chad Borin, DO."

...and the link: http://emresokc.org/
 
EM_Rebuilder said:
I am just curious why this program is not listed in the saem.org catalog? I had heard oklahoma city used to have an EM program but it was shut down back a few years ago?

Is the catalog at saem.org just out of date? How long has this program been around and how many residents per year? I cant seem to find much information about it.

It is an AOA program. Saem.org may only list ACGME programs.

They are currently working on making it a dual ACGME/AOA program.
 
EM_Rebuilder said:
I am just curious why this program is not listed in the saem.org catalog? I had heard oklahoma city used to have an EM program but it was shut down back a few years ago?

Is the catalog at saem.org just out of date? How long has this program been around and how many residents per year? I cant seem to find much information about it.


The program OSUdoc is referring to is Osteopathic. The allo residency in OKC was shut down a number of years ago.
 
steven1174 said:
Hey folks...I've been trying to compile a list of programs where EM runs the traumas and not just airway or switches with Trauma Surg...

So far I know of: LAC-USC

Thanks all....

i don't know where u got this information, but EM does not run traumas at usc-county. trauma team activation occurs each and every time a trauma comes through the ER so the trauma surgery team is there waiting before the patient comes in. the trauma surgery team are the top dogs in the hospital at usc and they run the show.
 
MedicinePowder said:
i don't know where u got this information, but EM does not run traumas at usc-county. trauma team activation occurs each and every time a trauma comes through the ER so the trauma surgery team is there waiting before the patient comes in. the trauma surgery team are the top dogs in the hospital at usc and they run the show.

New Mexico: Run by the ED folks
Ohio State: Same
Duke: Alternates with surgery, EM always gets the airway regardless of who runs.
 
MedicinePowder said:
i don't know where u got this information, but EM does not run traumas at usc-county. trauma team activation occurs each and every time a trauma comes through the ER so the trauma surgery team is there waiting before the patient comes in. the trauma surgery team are the top dogs in the hospital at usc and they run the show.

I spent a month at LAC last summer and only saw the surg team jump in once--to crack the chest and do cardiac massage. They seemed pretty content letting the EM residents do most of the work. I don't recall official trauma activations either... most of the time GSW or MVA patients just kind of showed up...
 
dlung said:
I spent a month at LAC last summer and only saw the surg team jump in once--to crack the chest and do cardiac massage. They seemed pretty content letting the EM residents do most of the work. I don't recall official trauma activations either... most of the time GSW or MVA patients just kind of showed up...

Just my two cents.. when I was originally compiling my ROL's, I placed a heavy emphasis on EM supervised trauma admissions. I viewed this policy as emblematic of emergnecy medicine's strength as a department within a particular institution. Though I don't have studies to corroborate this opinion, I believe seamless integration between the emergency and surgical specialties is of prime importance. Trauma is a surgical disease, and our efforts as EPs are focused on the rapid rule out and stabilization of immediate life/limb threats. There's little question that we can manage airways with the best of them, crack an ocassional chest, and pop in a chest tube with the confidence of a general surgeon. When patients are have blood in their belly, however, they will often require operative management- something EP's are not immediately capable of providing. Consequently, it makes little sense to judge a program on the basis of the supervision of immediate trauma care. Emergency medicine physicians need to achieve procedural competence in all phases of ATLS, but our practice embraces much more than the primary and secondary surveys described in that course. While running a trauma, we're also responsible for the sore throat in triage, the decompensating CHF'er in the resus bay, and the disposition of patients in urgent care.

My point is rather simple: I would very humbly suggest that the supervision of trauma resuscitation is not indicative of a program's strength. Consider our experience at Shock Trauma, for example. There's little question about hierarchy within the resus bays- trauma surgery supervises ALL traumas with anesthesia managing the emergent airways. An aspiring EM resident might view this as entirely problematic, as I did in my initial survey of the U Maryland program. Interestingly enough, this apparent exclusion of emergency medicine couldn't be farther from the truth... Shock Trauma admits over 7000 patients per year. Three trauma teams, comprised of a trauma surgery attending, trauma critical care fellow, GS and EM residents, special forces medics, and some students assume responsibility for admissions. The team's residents take turns as the "admitting physician".. this policy affords "supervisory" and "leadership" time for both GS and EM trainees. Currently, UMaryland EM residents spend four months with the trauma surgery service. This practice results in procedural numbers that far exceed RRC-EM minimums. Finally, emergency medicine residents spend a dedicated month functioning as a trauma anesthetist. During this junior year rotation, the EM resident manages all trauma airways and semi-elective procedures performed in the trauma operating rooms. There's little to no intra-operative time; the emergency medicine resident literally runs from trauma bay to trauma bay to provide any necessary acute airway interventions. During this month alone, it is not uncommon to secure 60-80 emergent intubations.

So....there's a little more complexity intrinsic to the question of, "who runs the traumas?" Most any program will provide EM residents with the requisite number of tubes and procedures. When doing your research, be sure to ask about the trauma experience as a WHOLE. The question of supervision occasionally boils down to inter-department politics and rivalry. Provided that a good working relationship between the two services is in existence, the EM resident will be provided with ample opportunity for ATLS oriented practice.
 
MedicinePowder said:
i don't know where u got this information, but EM does not run traumas at usc-county. trauma team activation occurs each and every time a trauma comes through the ER so the trauma surgery team is there waiting before the patient comes in. the trauma surgery team are the top dogs in the hospital at usc and they run the show.

I got the same information -- that EM runs trauma resuscitations -- both from students who rotated in the ED at LAC as well as from the EM program director. I was told flatly that the EM residents have the right of refusal for every procedure that occurs in the ED except thoracotomy -- and they get some of those too. My impression of LAC as a whole is that EM is the strongest program in the institution. (I'm not interested in getting into a flame war with me defending LAC. In fact, I didn't even rank LAC, for a variety of reasons, but I do feel that their trauma experience is among the best in the country.)
 
Which is all fine and dandy until in community practice, you realize that you are responsible for everything that shows up at your doorstep (surgeon 45 min away?) until you can admit or transfer them. At least from my experience, being a member on the trauma team is in no way equivalent to running the traumas. The same argument is used when surgery at various institutions says that we aren't qualified to open a chest. ("How many surgeons go on to practice trauma surgery?" "How many EPs go on to practice and be exposed to trauma without surgery back up?")

Our institution runs all airways. We run all level 2 traumas (lesser) as second years. As third years, we alternate between the surgery chief in running all the high level traumas. We spend time on the trauma team as interns.

mike

pushinepi2 said:
Just my two cents.. when I was originally compiling my ROL's, I placed a heavy emphasis on EM supervised trauma admissions. I viewed this policy as emblematic of emergnecy medicine's strength as a department within a particular institution. Though I don't have studies to corroborate this opinion, I believe seamless integration between the emergency and surgical specialties is of prime importance. Trauma is a surgical disease, and our efforts as EPs are focused on the rapid rule out and stabilization of immediate life/limb threats. There's little question that we can manage airways with the best of them, crack an ocassional chest, and pop in a chest tube with the confidence of a general surgeon. When patients are have blood in their belly, however, they will often require operative management- something EP's are not immediately capable of providing. Consequently, it makes little sense to judge a program on the basis of the supervision of immediate trauma care. Emergency medicine physicians need to achieve procedural competence in all phases of ATLS, but our practice embraces much more than the primary and secondary surveys described in that course. While running a trauma, we're also responsible for the sore throat in triage, the decompensating CHF'er in the resus bay, and the disposition of patients in urgent care.

My point is rather simple: I would very humbly suggest that the supervision of trauma resuscitation is not indicative of a program's strength. Consider our experience at Shock Trauma, for example. There's little question about hierarchy within the resus bays- trauma surgery supervises ALL traumas with anesthesia managing the emergent airways. An aspiring EM resident might view this as entirely problematic, as I did in my initial survey of the U Maryland program. Interestingly enough, this apparent exclusion of emergency medicine couldn't be farther from the truth... Shock Trauma admits over 7000 patients per year. Three trauma teams, comprised of a trauma surgery attending, trauma critical care fellow, GS and EM residents, special forces medics, and some students assume responsibility for admissions. The team's residents take turns as the "admitting physician".. this policy affords "supervisory" and "leadership" time for both GS and EM trainees. Currently, UMaryland EM residents spend four months with the trauma surgery service. This practice results in procedural numbers that far exceed RRC-EM minimums. Finally, emergency medicine residents spend a dedicated month functioning as a trauma anesthetist. During this junior year rotation, the EM resident manages all trauma airways and semi-elective procedures performed in the trauma operating rooms. There's little to no intra-operative time; the emergency medicine resident literally runs from trauma bay to trauma bay to provide any necessary acute airway interventions. During this month alone, it is not uncommon to secure 60-80 emergent intubations.

So....there's a little more complexity intrinsic to the question of, "who runs the traumas?" Most any program will provide EM residents with the requisite number of tubes and procedures. When doing your research, be sure to ask about the trauma experience as a WHOLE. The question of supervision occasionally boils down to inter-department politics and rivalry. Provided that a good working relationship between the two services is in existence, the EM resident will be provided with ample opportunity for ATLS oriented practice.
 
MedicinePowder said:
i don't know where u got this information, but EM does not run traumas at usc-county. trauma team activation occurs each and every time a trauma comes through the ER so the trauma surgery team is there waiting before the patient comes in. the trauma surgery team are the top dogs in the hospital at usc and they run the show.

Gotta agree w/ everyone else. USC's EM guys run the traumas. They do the chest tubes/central lines/intubations/etc. There is a phone that they call down the Surg folks if needed. So what I'm saying is that the Surg guys are not there for every trauma. Where did you get your info from?
 
FlemishGiant said:
Gotta agree w/ everyone else. USC's EM guys run the traumas. They do the chest tubes/central lines/intubations/etc. There is a phone that they call down the Surg folks if needed. So what I'm saying is that the Surg guys are not there for every trauma. Where did you get your info from?

At Medical College of Wisconsin/Froedtert the EM-3 and senior trauma resident alternate the responsibility of Captain (runs resus) and Doc Right (primary doc evaluating pt and doing procedures). EM-2 does airway on all traumas.
 
mikecwru said:
Which is all fine and dandy until in community practice, you realize that you are responsible for everything that shows up at your doorstep (surgeon 45 min away?) until you can admit or transfer them. At least from my experience, being a member on the trauma team is in no way equivalent to running the traumas. The same argument is used when surgery at various institutions says that we aren't qualified to open a chest. ("How many surgeons go on to practice trauma surgery?" "How many EPs go on to practice and be exposed to trauma without surgery back up?")

Our institution runs all airways. We run all level 2 traumas (lesser) as second years. As third years, we alternate between the surgery chief in running all the high level traumas. We spend time on the trauma team as interns.

mike

Some excellent discussion. My post was not intended to argue which strategy works best for training emergency medicine physicians to manage their own "level one traumas." When I was looking into programs as a 4th year med student, I placed an unnecessary amount of emphasis on the issue of, "who actually runs the traumas." At UMaryland, the EM residents are part of a larger, 'trauma team,' to be sure. I don't view that as a weakness at all... Even at hospitals where the EM3 serves as, "captain," is there not an attending or fellow present? Trauma is multidisciplinary at most hospitals across the country, and there are many different ways to prepare future EM docs. To further clarify, all residents on the team take TURNS as 'team leader.' Obviously, there's always a fellow or attending TS present. There were many instances, however, where EM residents are left running the resus bays when the surgeons are operating in the adjacent surgical suites. These times are most challenging, given the extremely high volume and acuity (often 20-30 admissions/day) at shock trauma. To those students out there looking for a broad based trauma experience, do not dismiss U Maryland simply because EM residents are integrated into the Shock Trauma team. We spend 5 months total at the R Adams Cowley STC, and there's absolutely no question about adequacy of exposure to supervision of resuscitations, trauma intubations, chest tubes, thoracotomies, and even the occasional trach (if you're motivated enough to follow the longer-term patients on the trauma service.) To anyone interested, feel free to pm me with more specific questions about the UM Trauma experience.

-push
 
pushinepi2 said:
Some excellent discussion. My post was not intended to argue which strategy works best for training emergency medicine physicians to manage their own "level one traumas." When I was looking into programs as a 4th year med student, I placed an unnecessary amount of emphasis on the issue of, "who actually runs the traumas." At UMaryland, the EM residents are part of a larger, 'trauma team,' to be sure. I don't view that as a weakness at all... Even at hospitals where the EM3 serves as, "captain," is there not an attending or fellow present? Trauma is multidisciplinary at most hospitals across the country, and there are many different ways to prepare future EM docs. To further clarify, all residents on the team take TURNS as 'team leader.' Obviously, there's always a fellow or attending TS present. There were many instances, however, where EM residents are left running the resus bays when the surgeons are operating in the adjacent surgical suites. These times are most challenging, given the extremely high volume and acuity (often 20-30 admissions/day) at shock trauma. To those students out there looking for a broad based trauma experience, do not dismiss U Maryland simply because EM residents are integrated into the Shock Trauma team. We spend 5 months total at the R Adams Cowley STC, and there's absolutely no question about adequacy of exposure to supervision of resuscitations, trauma intubations, chest tubes, thoracotomies, and even the occasional trach (if you're motivated enough to follow the longer-term patients on the trauma service.) To anyone interested, feel free to pm me with more specific questions about the UM Trauma experience.

-push

Yeah, we always sit and nitpick about "ideal" but adequate exposure will be gained at almost all EM programs. Same goes for programs with "only" level II trauma... even if it's a level II, you still may be out in the sticks, receiving trauma (the homeboy and Earl's ambulance services know no medical restriction) and the initial resuscitation is going to be the same. Maryland was just al little too compartmentalized for my tastes when I interviewed.

Do you guys do a Factor VII rotation? 🙂

mike
 
Top