Progression During Grad School (and after)

[SnowBubble]

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I thought it might be nice for those who aren't as informed about the progression of courses, internships, etc (including me!) during grad to get some advice. I know it differs for each school, but for clinical PhD programs following the scientist-practitioner model this is my understanding of how it typically goes:

years 1-3 or 4 = coursework (including masters coursework requirements)
years 2-3 or 4 = supervised clinical work
year 4 and/or 5 = dissertation
year 5 and/or 6 = year long, full time pre-doctoral internship (some schools allow 2 years of part time, i think)
then you get your PhD in Clinical Psych! 🙂
(optional?) post-doc internship
(optional) then you look into licensure

So whats the difference between the pre-doc internship and the post-doc? Is the first supervised and the post not? Both are paid too I thought...

Also is the post doc required? Or only required if you want to be licensed?

I heard that you can do your internship at another school...when people say this are they referring to the post or the pre-doc internship?

Finally, I heard that the post-doc is similar to residency for med students in that their place of residency is almost more important than the med school they went to because that's where they get their hands-on-training. Is that the same case for the post doc for Clinical PhD programs?

Wow. I guess I had a lot of questions 🙂 Hopefully answers will enlighten many other students new to this path as well! Thanks guys for answering my 101 questions!

 

[deleted176373]

So whats the difference between the pre-doc internship and the post-doc?

Not much to be honest, you still aren't being paid very well. The biggest difference is that your post-doc will be more focused on a specialty in general where the pre-doc is a more general experience (once again your experience can vary tremendously.)

Is the first supervised and the post not?

It wouldn't be much of an internship if you are not supervised. Both are supervised although the amount of supervision can certainly vary, you could get even more intensive supervision depending on your post-doc experience.

Both are paid too I thought...

Many internships are paid, but not all, although rare is the post-doc that is not paid. Still in general, internship pay sucks. It's about 50% (at best) of what you should be making, not counting military internships or the VA.


Also is the post doc required?

In general, the post-doc is not required, but some states require post-doctoral hours to get licensed. This is very dependent on the state that you intend to gain licensure in (some might argue it's required, but I would counter that you can always move.)

Or only required if you want to be licensed?

Once again, many states do require post-doc hours, but a fair number do not require post-doc hours for licensure. You will be required to be supervised until you gain licensure, but that's not necessarily a "post-doc" internship, you simply could be supervised without the internship aspect. An internship implies that you are learning something additional, not just gaining experience.

I heard that you can do your internship at another school...when people say this are they referring to the post or the pre-doc internship?

In general, you graduate from your school once you complete your year long internship at a training site that is not at your school. Some schools have captive internships, most others require you to compete for placement through the APPIC match system. This is why the APPIC match numbers are so important.

Finally, I heard that the post-doc is similar to residency for med students in that their place of residency is almost more important than the med school they went to because that's where they get their hands-on-training. Is that the same case for the post doc for Clinical PhD programs?

I don't know if it's quite that way, but the school you go to definitely affects your opportunities as far as internship placement, which in some ways will affect your prospects down the road. In psychology, in general, the school will partially determine internship opportunities and internship can play a role in your employment trajectory. It's not as bad as law school but not as free wheeling as medical school, but somewhere in between the two.

Hope this helps, this is just my personal opinion... others will no doubt have their own opinion.

Mark

 

[SnowBubble]

Thanks Markp! That was very enlightening and helpful!

I'm still confused about where/when the actual clinical training occurs. I didn't ask this in my original question but maybe you/someone can explain answer this... because if clinical PhD programs require a one year full time pre-doc internship...then doesn't that mean anyone who completes that will be train to be a practitioner as well? I guess my specific question is: If I attended a school that had a very research oriented program, but still offered clinical training, would I get enough training to be a competent practitioner? Or would I be able to compensate by doing my pre-doc internship at a place that offers better supervision/training?

I'm considering apply to UCLA (which I know is incredibly competitive) and other programs that say they are designed to produce clinical scientists. They rate themselves as a 7 in the Insiders guide (on a scale of 1-7, 7 = very research oriented). I really want to do research but I'm also interested in practice. I've read that some people who are really interested in both (research and practice) will go to a research oriented school to build a strong foundation in research (skills, connections, etc) and then apply for a post doc to get enough hours to apply for licensure so they can have both a successful research/practice career.

I guess alternatively, I could just go to an equal-emphasis school, but sadly it seems there are few such schools in California.

Sorry my question is so confusing and specific. I guess I'm worried about going to a school and feeling they don't support those who want to practice or that they don't offer good clinical training/skills...

Thanks so much for reading this long question/answering if you can!!!

 

[erg923]

Clinical training with occur during grad school (usualy starting in the 2nd year). However, keep in mind that these experiences (especially at research intensive programs) will only be 16-18 hours per week and sometimes less. You will learn alot, but you will not have experienced being emerged in full-time clinical work until the internship. You will learn alot of new stuff during the internship year, as well as polish the skills you have already started to obtain. The pre-doctoral internship year is required for the clincial ph.d, regardless of how research oriented your grad program is.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm considering apply to UCLA (which I know is incredibly competitive) and other programs that say they are designed to produce clinical scientists. They rate themselves as a 7 in the Insiders guide (on a scale of 1-7, 7 = very research oriented). I really want to do research but I'm also interested in practice. I've read that some people who are really interested in both (research and practice) will go to a research oriented school to build a strong foundation in research (skills, connections, etc) and then apply for a post doc to get enough hours to apply for licensure so they can have both a successful research/practice career.

You don't want to have to lie about wanting to practice. Some schools will not even admit you if you say that you want to practice, and I'd be willing to bet that UCLA is one of them. Equal emphasis schools still offer solid research training or skills, and you would get the focus that you want. At the very least, you want a program that is scientist-practitioner, not clinical scientist.

If you're only applying to schools in California, you are really limiting yourself.

 

[SnowBubble]

Clinical training with occur during grad school (usualy starting in the 2nd year). However, keep in mind that these experiences (especially at research intensive programs) will only be 16-18 hours per week and sometimes less. You will learn alot, but you will not have experienced being emerged in full-time clinical work until the internship. You will learn alot of new stuff during the internship year, as well as polish the skills you have already started to obtain. The pre-doctoral internship year is required for the clincial ph.d, regardless of how research oriented your grad program is.

Oh okay, I didn't know the number of hours for clinical training really differed among schools! Thanks, it makes sense that it's important to be exposed to different experiences before the pre-doc!

 

[SnowBubble]

You don't want to have to lie about wanting to practice. Some schools will not even admit you if you say that you want to practice, and I'd be willing to bet that UCLA is one of them. Equal emphasis schools still offer solid research training or skills, and you would get the focus that you want. At the very least, you want a program that is scientist-practitioner, not clinical scientist.

If you're only applying to schools in California, you are really limiting yourself.

Thanks cara susanna, that's a good point! I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Insider's Guide or their scale, but do know whether schools that rank themselves as a 6 may also be among the schools who won't admit those looking to practice sometime in the future?

 

[deleted176373]

Thanks cara susanna, that's a good point! I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Insider's Guide or their scale, but do know whether schools that rank themselves as a 6 may also be among the schools who won't admit those looking to practice sometime in the future?

Take that scale with a big grain of salt. What they are trying to do is weed out those who are only willing to do research to get a clinical degree. Don't get me wrong, the 7 schools WANT hard core researchers, but they are still training clinical psychologists. You will still be competitive come internship time even if your hours are a little lower than people from programs that have a more practice based focus.

Yes, the words, "I want to practice" in a research based program interview can be the end of your chances. These programs are looking for people who love research and more importantly love the research they will be doing. You have to be able to prove that coming in the door, that you are research focused and essentially are looking for an academic track for career development. You still have to sell these programs on why you need a clinical degree to achieve your goals (and this is where the balancing act comes in, how do I practice without "practicing.") Only you can answer that question, but you need to think that through before you go interview.

Why do I want to be a researcher/academician with a clinical degree and how will that help me achieve my research goals?

Mark

 

[SnowBubble]

Thanks Mark! That was incredibly helpful and exactly what I was looking for!

You still have to sell these programs on why you need a clinical degree to achieve your goals (and this is where the balancing act comes in, how do I practice without "practicing.")

Mark

I'm not sure I understand this part though. Do u mean, that I have to be able to communicate why I want to go to such a research oriented school if I hope to someday also practice?

Thanks!

 

[deleted176373]

Thanks Mark! That was incredibly helpful and exactly what I was looking for!



I'm not sure I understand this part though. Do u mean, that I have to be able to communicate why I want to go to such a research oriented school if I hope to someday also practice?

Thanks!

No, how practicing will inform your research and why practice is a critical part of your research paradigm.

Mark

 

[SingingCow]

You don't want to have to lie about wanting to practice. Some schools will not even admit you if you say that you want to practice, and I'd be willing to bet that UCLA is one of them. Equal emphasis schools still offer solid research training or skills, and you would get the focus that you want. At the very least, you want a program that is scientist-practitioner, not clinical scientist.

If you're only applying to schools in California, you are really limiting yourself.

One thing you will want to look at is their student outcome data on their website. All APA accredited programs have to present that to the public. If you go to the UCLA website, you will notice that although many students do end up with academic/research positions, there are a fair number of them who take up clinical positions.

 

[SnowBubble]

One thing you will want to look at is their student outcome data on their website. All APA accredited programs have to present that to the public. If you go to the UCLA website, you will notice that although many students do end up with academic/research positions, there are a fair number of them who take up clinical positions.

yeah! that was one thing i found very strange!! it seems like a fair number of people end up practicing even from other very research oriented schools!

 

[LM02]

yeah! that was one thing i found very strange!! it seems like a fair number of people end up practicing even from other very research oriented schools!

This is what I tongue-in-cheek refer to as the "dirty little secret" of the heavily research-oriented programs. I don't think this is necessarily because people were dishonest about their career goals going in, but rather had their careers go in different directions. The reality is that a research career is very hard to launch and sustain, demanding, and not especially flexible (though, in terms of setting your daily schedule, you may have flexibiity!). In contrast, the clinical PhD actually offers a lot of flexibility. So when it comes time to make a career decision, often times something more "clinical" wins out.

And remember that personal life develops at the same time as your professional life. And by the time people finish postdoc, they often have other priorities (spouses, children, other ties) that do not necessarily fit with an academic career.

 

[erg923]

And remember that personal life develops at the same time as your professional life. And by the time people finish postdoc, they often have other priorities (spouses, children, other ties) that do not necessarily fit with an academic career.

This a very good point to bring up (surprised I haven't discussed it in-depth myself). I think this a good explanation, along with the fact that the academic job market is just not that open (it's much easier to find employment using your clinical training). Its important to think about, especially for newbies who want to the research heavy program and the big-shot tenure-track faculty position (even if its at a tier 2). I am a much different person now that when I entered grad school 5 years ago. I have a wife who's life, comfort, success, and well-being is infinitively more important to me than a career or title ever will be. Constant moving during our early years might help my career, but it would hurt hers. We want to have a family of our own soon, I do not want my kids moving around alot (even when they are young), and ideally, we have would like to return to my hometown. All these things are pretty incompatible with what it would take to be competitive in the academic job market (even if I desired to). They are people who don't want these things, but statistically, they are in the minority. So you can almost bet that you will have these or similar desires by the time you finish your program. Even if you are "wide-eyed, bachelor, research-hound" at the moment...🙂

 

[deleted176373]

Ahhh to live the wild life again as an undergrad... 🙂 If we only realized how easy we really had it!!!