Deciding where to go to Grad School

[jjz2]

Hi All!

I am a senior in undergrad and I applied to the William James College PsyD program. I am looking to get honest feedback on this program and whether it is worth going if I get accepted. Debt isn’t a concern for me, and I am more concerned about training and the actual program (mentoring, personal guidance, future outcomes of psychologists). I applied because I see on linkedin that alums have gotten great opportunities and have went on to do great things in the field with their degree.

If i don’t go to WJC, my other option is attending the BU MSW program (if i get in), and then either applying for the PhD in social work or continuing to get my LCSW. I am interested in clinical work and am more interested in the specifics and not the holistic work.

Please, any advice on this decision would help. Although I am pleased with the MSW route in becoming a clinical therapist, I think that a PsyD could fit my needs better in terms of in depth training in psychopathology. Further, I do care that PsyDs get paid more than LCSWs.

I really don’t know anything and really want good, real advice. Thank you all for your input!

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[Sanman]

I typed this response in another thread that was just deleted. I will post it here as well:

I have come to the conclusion that a WJ PsyD is the educational equivalent of buying a brand new Maserati. They are both extremely expensive (about the same price in fact), both pretend to be a luxury product but the components are cheaply made despite the price, the product is often unreliable, and lots of people will think you are a fool for having spent money this way. Those that don't know better will be impressed. It will financially ruin some people and yet a few others are thrilled with the experience despite the downsides.

The question for the OP is whether they are the type of person to go out and buy a Maserati at this stage of life? Me...I am a Honda/Toyota guy because I prefer good value. That is also why I prefer funded state school grad programs.

 

[PsychNLife]

Given that I go to WJC currently, I feel like I can give some feedback. I'm in my third year.

It is an extremely expensive program, ridiculously so. Even though debt isn't the biggest concern for me, it absolutely bothers me that they get away with that tuition price. I feel very badly for my peers that require food stamps to make it work. I am extremely lucky in that I get to live with family, and I have a husband who works, which makes things a lot easier.

The classes and content, as far as my understanding goes, meet the necessary criteria for APA standards and licensure (that is, if you're a diligent student and pay attention in class). They cover what you need for the most part, and have been interesting (I've been able to take LGBTQ+ electives which I've enjoyed).

The professors have overall been supportive and knowledgeable in their specialties. However, they seem burnt out at times, and the school sometimes hires quite young professors that are still adjusting to the teaching side of the profession. I've also had professors with many years in the field as well. I've had some that I absolutely adore.

Practicum placements can be quite tricky, as it's a large cohort competing. However, if you are strategic in where you apply and have a strong resume coming in, it is very possible to have highly regarded placements. The placement options vary year to year, and some are really amazing and top hospitals and some are at less resourced community health centers. It can be hit or miss. My first two years I went to top notch placements, but my current one I don't like quite as much. At some places, the support and training is phenomenal, and others are very much less so.

I absolutely wish my cohort was smaller so we would each have more resources and individual support. However, it's a far cry from any claims that all of the cohort shouldn't be there. There are certainly some of my classmates I've encountered that I believe shouldn't have gotten in, but many others that I feel are deserving of being in a doctoral program. So again, it is mixed.

The administration is a hassle, but this is the case for many programs.

I enjoy that the curriculum includes a clinical practice course alongside our placements, so we get more support from professors explicitly on concerns regarding clinical matters at our site.

There are times when I consider if I should have picked a social work program, as I also applied to those my first round, and I truly don't know. I am thankful that I am getting training in assessment, and that I will ultimately make a higher paycheck, as well as possibly have an upper hand when it comes to private practice, but I do think a good amount of my goals could have been covered in a SW program.


I am happy to answer any other questions you might have.

TLDR: It's a program that meets the requirements to get you to where you need, but is ultimately mixed regarding cohort size, admin issues, and placement choices.

 

[jjz2]

Given that I go to WJC currently, I feel like I can give some feedback. I'm in my third year.

It is an extremely expensive program, ridiculously so. Even though debt isn't the biggest concern for me, it absolutely bothers me that they get away with that tuition price. I feel very badly for my peers that require food stamps to make it work. I am extremely lucky in that I get to live with family, and I have a husband who works, which makes things a lot easier.

The classes and content, as far as my understanding goes, meet the necessary criteria for APA standards and licensure (that is, if you're a diligent student and pay attention in class). They cover what you need for the most part, and have been interesting (I've been able to take LGBTQ+ electives which I've enjoyed).

The professors have overall been supportive and knowledgeable in their specialties. However, they seem burnt out at times, and the school sometimes hires quite young professors that are still adjusting to the teaching side of the profession. I've also had professors with many years in the field as well. I've had some that I absolutely adore.

Practicum placements can be quite tricky, as it's a large cohort competing. However, if you are strategic in where you apply and have a strong resume coming in, it is very possible to have highly regarded placements. The placement options vary year to year, and some are really amazing and top hospitals and some are at less resourced community health centers. It can be hit or miss. My first two years I went to top notch placements, but my current one I don't like quite as much. At some places, the support and training is phenomenal, and others are very much less so.

I absolutely wish my cohort was smaller so we would each have more resources and individual support. However, it's a far cry from any claims that all of the cohort shouldn't be there. There are certainly some of my classmates I've encountered that I believe shouldn't have gotten in, but many others that I feel are deserving of being in a doctoral program. So again, it is mixed.

The administration is a hassle, but this is the case for many programs.

I enjoy that the curriculum includes a clinical practice course alongside our placements, so we get more support from professors explicitly on concerns regarding clinical matters at our site.

There are times when I consider if I should have picked a social work program, as I also applied to those my first round, and I truly don't know. I am thankful that I am getting training in assessment, and that I will ultimately make a higher paycheck, as well as possibly have an upper hand when it comes to private practice, but I do think a good amount of my goals could have been covered in a SW program.


I am happy to answer any other questions you might have.

TLDR: It's a program that meets the requirements to get you to where you need, but is ultimately mixed regarding cohort size, admin issues, and placement choices.

Thank you so much for this helpful information!! I will be considering this.

 

[Peacemaker36]

If you can easily afford to pay your way through with no debt, and if you are sure you will end up in clinical practice (not research), and if staying in Boston is a top priority, and if you are a strong, self-directed student and won't mind competing with classmates for practicum slots, then WJC might be the best school for you.

At a master's of social work school like BU you will have significantly less clinical training and instruction, and some of the coursework will be on macro social work issues, which may or may not float your boat. But the training will be good, and if you go this route you can always continue to learn once you are out of grad school. If you do opt for social work, there are a handful of good programs in the Boston area.

 

[PsyDuck90]

OP, why is WJC the only doctoral program you’re considering? Is it because of geographic restrictions? If so, then I would be more inclined to go the MSW/LCSW route, as even if you attend WJC, there is no guarantee you’ll be able to match to an internship in the Boston area or even a postdoc.

The current WJC looks like they gave a very balanced overview of their program. The things that stuck out to me are the fact that WJC are competing for resources, faculty attention, and practicum placements at a level that is not seen in small cohort programs. What has been said on this forum on multiple occasions, and seems to be represented in the above post, is that individuals from WJC (and other expensive, large cohort programs) succeed in spite of their program rather than actually being assisted by it. The purpose of a doctoral clinical psych programs is to provide individual mentorship to train students to be great clinicians and be able to effectively integrate psychological science into their day-to-day practice. Clinical scientist PhDs programs may emphasize the the dissemination of clinical science a bit more than the clinical, but the vast majority of clinical psych graduates, regardless of program model (practitioner-scholar, scientist-practitioner, or clinical science) work primarily as clinicians.

Even if it wouldn’t be a as onerous a financial burden for you to pay the absurdly high tuition, the big question is…why? Doctoral training in psychology is a bit different from the idea of “you get what you pay for” with more expensive meaning higher quality. In fact, the inverse is true. Small cohort programs are selecting a handful of students and heavily investing in their professional development (working as an RA or teaching are also beneficial in growing as a clinician and a scholar), while expensive large cohort models employee more of a “sink or swim” mentality of making students fight for things that are automatically provided to students at smaller programs. Grad school is hard enough without having to add in the extra effort of vying for faculty attention to make sure you have solid letters of recommendation or practicum sites to set you up for a successful internship match and beyond.

As far as WJC vs MSW is concerned, I’d think about what your specific career goals are. Yes, doctoral level providers get paid a bit more from insurance panels. However, if you are in private practice, you can set your own prices and whether you have a PhD, PsyD, LCSW, LPC, or MFT doesn’t make much of a difference regarding private pay (insurance reimbursements aren’t that high regardless of whether or not you bill as a doctoral level or mid-level provider). Also, you are in school for a fraction of the time, so you start earning that income much sooner. If the cost of WJC isn’t a factor because you already have that cash, your money will likely be more productive if you invest it.

 

[jjz2]

Given that I go to WJC currently, I feel like I can give some feedback. I'm in my third year.

It is an extremely expensive program, ridiculously so. Even though debt isn't the biggest concern for me, it absolutely bothers me that they get away with that tuition price. I feel very badly for my peers that require food stamps to make it work. I am extremely lucky in that I get to live with family, and I have a husband who works, which makes things a lot easier.

The classes and content, as far as my understanding goes, meet the necessary criteria for APA standards and licensure (that is, if you're a diligent student and pay attention in class). They cover what you need for the most part, and have been interesting (I've been able to take LGBTQ+ electives which I've enjoyed).

The professors have overall been supportive and knowledgeable in their specialties. However, they seem burnt out at times, and the school sometimes hires quite young professors that are still adjusting to the teaching side of the profession. I've also had professors with many years in the field as well. I've had some that I absolutely adore.

Practicum placements can be quite tricky, as it's a large cohort competing. However, if you are strategic in where you apply and have a strong resume coming in, it is very possible to have highly regarded placements. The placement options vary year to year, and some are really amazing and top hospitals and some are at less resourced community health centers. It can be hit or miss. My first two years I went to top notch placements, but my current one I don't like quite as much. At some places, the support and training is phenomenal, and others are very much less so.

I absolutely wish my cohort was smaller so we would each have more resources and individual support. However, it's a far cry from any claims that all of the cohort shouldn't be there. There are certainly some of my classmates I've encountered that I believe shouldn't have gotten in, but many others that I feel are deserving of being in a doctoral program. So again, it is mixed.

The administration is a hassle, but this is the case for many programs.

I enjoy that the curriculum includes a clinical practice course alongside our placements, so we get more support from professors explicitly on concerns regarding clinical matters at our site.

There are times when I consider if I should have picked a social work program, as I also applied to those my first round, and I truly don't know. I am thankful that I am getting training in assessment, and that I will ultimately make a higher paycheck, as well as possibly have an upper hand when it comes to private practice, but I do think a good amount of my goals could have been covered in a SW program.


I am happy to answer any other questions you might have.

TLDR: It's a program that meets the requirements to get you to where you need, but is ultimately mixed regarding cohort size, admin issues, and placement choices.

How is homework load? And how is the mentorship? I heard every student is given an advisor. Do they actually help? Do you feel prepared to be licensed and become a psychologist.

 

[jjz2]

OP, why is WJC the only doctoral program you’re considering? Is it because of geographic restrictions? If so, then I would be more inclined to go the MSW/LCSW route, as even if you attend WJC, there is no guarantee you’ll be able to match to an internship in the Boston area or even a postdoc.

The current WJC looks like they gave a very balanced overview of their program. The things that stuck out to me are the fact that WJC are competing for resources, faculty attention, and practicum placements at a level that is not seen in small cohort programs. What has been said on this forum on multiple occasions, and seems to be represented in the above post, is that individuals from WJC (and other expensive, large cohort programs) succeed in spite of their program rather than actually being assisted by it. The purpose of a doctoral clinical psych programs is to provide individual mentorship to train students to be great clinicians and be able to effectively integrate psychological science into their day-to-day practice. Clinical scientist PhDs programs may emphasize the the dissemination of clinical science a bit more than the clinical, but the vast majority of clinical psych graduates, regardless of program model (practitioner-scholar, scientist-practitioner, or clinical science) work primarily as clinicians.

Even if it wouldn’t be a as onerous a financial burden for you to pay the absurdly high tuition, the big question is…why? Doctoral training in psychology is a bit different from the idea of “you get what you pay for” with more expensive meaning higher quality. In fact, the inverse is true. Small cohort programs are selecting a handful of students and heavily investing in their professional development (working as an RA or teaching are also beneficial in growing as a clinician and a scholar), while expensive large cohort models employee more of a “sink or swim” mentality of making students fight for things that are automatically provided to students at smaller programs. Grad school is hard enough without having to add in the extra effort of vying for faculty attention to make sure you have solid letters of recommendation or practicum sites to set you up for a successful internship match and beyond.

As far as WJC vs MSW is concerned, I’d think about what your specific career goals are. Yes, doctoral level providers get paid a bit more from insurance panels. However, if you are in private practice, you can set your own prices and whether you have a PhD, PsyD, LCSW, LPC, or MFT doesn’t make much of a difference regarding private pay (insurance reimbursements aren’t that high regardless of whether or not you bill as a doctoral level or mid-level provider). Also, you are in school for a fraction of the time, so you start earning that income much sooner. If the cost of WJC isn’t a factor because you already have that cash, your money will likely be more productive if you invest it.

this makes sense!

 

[jjz2]

this makes sense!

Do you have any advice or info on like if I do pursue the MSW/LCSW, is it worth doing a PhD in social work with the clinical focus or is it useful to get a PsyD after I get the LCSW even? that is, with a better program with a smaller cohort.

 

[PsyDuck90]

A PhD in social work won’t allow you to bill as a doctoral level provider, so you would still be a masters level clinician. If you want to advance your research skills and maybe go into academia, a PhD in social work may be aligned with those goals. I also don’t know how beneficial a PsyD after completing an LCSW would be, from a time/cost standpoint. If you want to get more advanced clinical training after already completing an MSW, you can seek out consultation services to learn specific treatment modalities such as specific trauma treatment (PE, CPT) or other interventions.

If you’re interesting in the doctoral route, why not just apply to small cohort PsyD and PhD programs in the coming year? If you don’t feel like you’re application is competitive, you can look for a research assistant position somewhere and work there for a year or so to improve your CV. That way, you are making an income while strengthening your application and then getting into a program that will fund you for the length of your training.

 

[jjz2]

A PhD in social work won’t allow you to bill as a doctoral level provider, so you would still be a masters level clinician. If you want to advance your research skills and maybe go into academia, a PhD in social work may be aligned with those goals. I also don’t know how beneficial a PsyD after completing an LCSW would be, from a time/cost standpoint. If you want to get more advanced clinical training after already completing an MSW, you can seek out consultation services to learn specific treatment modalities such as specific trauma treatment (PE, CPT) or other interventions.

If you’re interesting in the doctoral route, why not just apply to small cohort PsyD and PhD programs in the coming year? If you don’t feel like you’re application is competitive, you can look for a research assistant position somewhere and work there for a year or so to improve your CV. That way, you are making an income while strengthening your application and then getting into a program that will fund you for the length of your training.

this is a good idea i might think about taking a gap year

 

[Dazen]

How is homework load? And how is the mentorship? I heard every student is given an advisor. Do they actually help? Do you feel prepared to be licensed and become a psychologist.

I don't go to WJC (I'm a student in a clinical PhD program), but so you know what you're getting yourself into, homework is approximately 5% of my time and mind share, especially after first year. Being in a doctoral program is much more similar to having a full-time (or more lol) job than being in undergrad. The vast majority of my time is spent seeing clients (for therapy and assessment), doing research, and whatever combination of TA and teaching responsibilities I have for that year. YMMV with research and assistantships in a PsyD, but I'd expect you'd still be doing far less coursework than practical work. This year, I have 30 hours of scheduled practicum time weekly, which doesn't always include documentation and report-writing depending on my client hours for the week. Add in actually going to class and fulfilling other responsibilities, plus trying to eat and sleep, and there's not much time left over for homework.

 

[PsychNLife]

How is homework load? And how is the mentorship? I heard every student is given an advisor. Do they actually help? Do you feel prepared to be licensed and become a psychologist.

Homework load varies from class to class and year to year. You start off first year taking 5 classes per semester usually, each 2-3 hours long. In my third year, I'm taking three courses per semester. Next year I'll take 2.

Homework obviously varies by class. I'm a big paper-writing person, so I found the classes that involve papers much easier than the ones that required exam prep .

Every student has an academic advisor, but one advisor has probably at least 5-10 advisees I believe. So my advisor definitely has other students to look out for. However, whenever I've needed something from my advisor he responds pretty promptly.

Do I feel prepared? I don't really know. I will take the comprehensive exam over the summer which the school requires and I think that will give me a good idea perhaps.


The other poster is right in that as the years go by and the clinical work ramps up, homework becomes less of the main priority and our doctoral projects and clinical work kinda take over. However personally I believe that when professors know this they are slightly more lenient, or at least in my third year here it feels that way.

 

[MAClinician]

@jjz2 you should read this first:
https://mitch.web.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/4922/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf