Should I even do it? 🙁
Projected 200K Debt After DPT
- Thread starter Crusty
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Nope. Not unless you're able to get scholarships and plan to live in the middle of nowhere for the rest of your life (where the cost of living is cheap and jobs tend to pay more to attract applicants) and work in a less desirable setting (which also tends to pay more to attract applicants).
Hmm well, I did NOT set out to college so I can end up with 4 times the debt that I can handle and carry this miserable burden for the rest of my life. The plan was to MAKE money AND be happy with my job and quality of life!!
I am considering nurse practitioner or anesthetist, which have cheaper routes with more money to be made. Or I might search for PT schools abroad. I am too young to be ready to face the burden of 200K in debt!!
I am considering nurse practitioner or anesthetist, which have cheaper routes with more money to be made. Or I might search for PT schools abroad. I am too young to be ready to face the burden of 200K in debt!!
Neither did the rest of us, but you like everyone else will come to realize you've been scammed and get in the unemployment line with the rest of us to see if we can feed out of the palm of the hand of our wonderful Government.
The fish will eventually gobble those at the top as well. People aren't realizing we have some very bad foundational problems in this country. If it's not corrected the responsible way, it will correct itself the irresponsible way. The jokers playing politician aren't fixing it the responsible way. So look for it to be fixed the other way.
I've been looking at Paramedic. No money. No jobs, but a good skill when China decides to come over to claim what we've sold them.
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Ok hold on a minute. Not everyone is spending $200k to become a PT. As far as I can tell, the majority of people don't even come close to that.
Many people are fortunate enough to go to state schools that cost them $50k or less. I wouldn't call that a "scam."
For those who aren't going to a state school, like myself, the projected again for many is less than $100k BEFORE any scholarships, assistantships, grants, and all kinds of financial aid are applied.
There are schools that are going to cost you $40-50k or more per year just for tuition, but you don't have to apply to those schools if you choose not to. If I got into a school that was going to put me $200k in debt, I would reject the offer and work on my application for next year, next time applying to more reasonably priced schools.
Many people are fortunate enough to go to state schools that cost them $50k or less. I wouldn't call that a "scam."
For those who aren't going to a state school, like myself, the projected again for many is less than $100k BEFORE any scholarships, assistantships, grants, and all kinds of financial aid are applied.
There are schools that are going to cost you $40-50k or more per year just for tuition, but you don't have to apply to those schools if you choose not to. If I got into a school that was going to put me $200k in debt, I would reject the offer and work on my application for next year, next time applying to more reasonably priced schools.
I live in the north eastern United States, and even the lesser competitive DPT programs in undesirable areas are charging ~$150K for tuition and related costs. Why should I have to relocate to the south or midwest for a reasonably priced DPT education? It is absurd.
East Carolina U. currently charges less than $6K/year for its DPT program. It has wonderful facilities, is right next to a teaching hospital and is located in a growing part of the country. The OP may want to relocate to NC and live there for a year to establish in-state residency before applying to ECU.
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I also live in the north eastern US. My state school (URI) is great for in-state students. If I was accepted there I could possibly go there for <$10k (they have assistantships + grants and scholarships that would really help me).
The other schools I looked at in New England also have many assistantship opportunities. However, most of these schools out-of-state are ~$30k/year.
Lots of people go out of state for their education (it seems like the majority do for PT, actually). If you're not willing to do so, then perhaps you're not willing to become a PT?
Sorry, I missed this part of your post. Unfortunately life doesn't always unfold the way we want it to.
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I owed $240K when I started repaying in November. Trying to pay it down by doing $2500 a month. I COULD DO SO MUCH IF I DIDNT HAVE LOANS...but that's life. I made a choice as an 18 year old to an entry level private school because they gave me 22k off a year for undergrad. Then you realize all the summers and fees, and no financial aid for the graduate portion...and you're 240k in debt. Several of my classmates are in the same boat. But we are working hard, helping people, and getting it under control. I'll make it out ok
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Crusty, have you crunched any numbers? It's a good way to realize the ramifications of such a large amount of debt.
The schools I may attend will not put me back $200k...but I did calculate interest and payments for 150k and 200k federal loans. With a 200k loan you would be making $2,000 monthly payments for 148 months, ultimately paying back nearly $300,000. If you are making 80k a year that leaves about $3,000/mo to live off of and save for yourself. I don't know how old you are, but for most I think that would be into the late 30's.
Currently that is slightly higher than my take home right now, and I am living quite comfortably in a Seattle condo with one roommate. What's hard for me to picture is how it would be if I'm 35 and want to get married, have kids, make a down payment on a house, etc. These are things I'm thinking about.
Of course, you also have to think about your individual situation. I know people who's parents are paying for their entire graduate school tuition. More reasonably, I know people who are able to borrow a large amount from their parents interest free and pay it back after the federal loans. As you can see from the payment plan I mentioned, this can knock off YEARS of payments.
What it really comes down to is, what type of lifestyle are you going to be OK with and comfortable living? You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't already live a humble lifestyle, you should start practicing right away to make sure it will work out OK for you.
The schools I may attend will not put me back $200k...but I did calculate interest and payments for 150k and 200k federal loans. With a 200k loan you would be making $2,000 monthly payments for 148 months, ultimately paying back nearly $300,000. If you are making 80k a year that leaves about $3,000/mo to live off of and save for yourself. I don't know how old you are, but for most I think that would be into the late 30's.
Currently that is slightly higher than my take home right now, and I am living quite comfortably in a Seattle condo with one roommate. What's hard for me to picture is how it would be if I'm 35 and want to get married, have kids, make a down payment on a house, etc. These are things I'm thinking about.
Of course, you also have to think about your individual situation. I know people who's parents are paying for their entire graduate school tuition. More reasonably, I know people who are able to borrow a large amount from their parents interest free and pay it back after the federal loans. As you can see from the payment plan I mentioned, this can knock off YEARS of payments.
What it really comes down to is, what type of lifestyle are you going to be OK with and comfortable living? You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't already live a humble lifestyle, you should start practicing right away to make sure it will work out OK for you.
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Kinda a moot point since the MPT is being phased out.
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Just wondering what the upgrade is costing, given the conversation has been directed toward debt.
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Remember federal loans can be payed back with income based repayment and for you guys still not in school it will be capped at 10% of your income, 25 years max, 10 years if work in non for profit and the rest are forgiven.
Good to know!!! 😀
Hmm I think I'll be ok then! Just have to work on those private loans aggressively for a few years and I should be golden after that, hopefully.
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I'll assume your repayment rate is correct so 148 months is twelve years. That's a lot of years. However, $80k per year is $6,667 per month. About 2/3rds of that is left after taxes. That means $4,444 per month. So if they pay off $2,000 per month it leaves $2,444. A person making $43,000 per year would bring home $2,444 per month. Not a good deal if you ask me. Better just to find a job paying $22 per hour and not take on that debt.
Sucks, doesn't it? 25 years old when you graduate, working until you're 37 before you can live without a roommate and student loan debt you can't get out of. Also, no saving for a house and renting for the rest of your life. Can't take time off if you have a child.... or having to delay children until you're almost too old to have them. Maybe having a special needs child because the first pregnancy was too late in life, etc. etc.
I think you make a the right point in your post. Most people aren't honest with themselves or they decide not to know what you've figured out. They end up living a life of slavery and blame the banks for making themselves miserable.
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Yup. I think our math might have been slightly different for the first part, but I figure you can have a little more to live off of if you are willing to work more or are a bit entrepreneurial.
The income base repayment plan may also be very helpful. With the new changes coming, (10% of your income, 20 years until forgiveness) it would be reasonable and likely those with high debt such as 150-200k will have some forgiven. I haven't looked into the details like if interest is forgiven, or just the borrowed money. Anyone know? With this plan though, you do have to make sure you aren't stretching out your payments so much that you will end up paying more in the end...
Also keep in mind you don't have to be living with some random roommate until you're 37. Most people I know live with friends or significant others and this greatly enhances their lifestyle vs living alone. Living with people with similar financial means can also make things much easier.
But, yes, the most important thing is to make sure you're OK with the lifestyle post-graduation. Most therapists I've met are not hedonistic. They do seem to enjoy life quite a bit and do well with what they have.
The income base repayment plan may also be very helpful. With the new changes coming, (10% of your income, 20 years until forgiveness) it would be reasonable and likely those with high debt such as 150-200k will have some forgiven. I haven't looked into the details like if interest is forgiven, or just the borrowed money. Anyone know? With this plan though, you do have to make sure you aren't stretching out your payments so much that you will end up paying more in the end...
Also keep in mind you don't have to be living with some random roommate until you're 37. Most people I know live with friends or significant others and this greatly enhances their lifestyle vs living alone. Living with people with similar financial means can also make things much easier.
But, yes, the most important thing is to make sure you're OK with the lifestyle post-graduation. Most therapists I've met are not hedonistic. They do seem to enjoy life quite a bit and do well with what they have.
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I wasn't aware that loans qualified for income based repayment and were wiped clean after 25 years. Is this the case with all lenders? What happens if for some reason a few payments are missed? Is it 10% of gross or net pay?
Maybe this would be a decent route for people coming out of PT school with 150k+ in debt vs trying to pay near 2k per month for 10 years.
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Yes, as of the plan now, the remaining balance is wiped clean after 25 years. Within the next year though, Obama says this will be reduced to 20 years, and monthly payments will be 10% of your income rather than 15%.
It is based on your AGI, annual gross income.
I do not know what happens if you miss payments, it may make you ineligible for the cancellation.
This is not for all lenders, only federal loans.
You can read up on it here
It's based on AGI -- 15% of the portion of your AGI that exceeds 150% of the federal poverty level for your family size.
IBR only works for federally-backed loans, though, not private ones. (so do Grad-PLUS instead if at all possible -- that's my hope for when the time comes)
It's potentially a really good deal, assuming the forgiveness actually happens at some point. You can push your AGI down pretty low if you end up with a mortgage interest deduction and can take advantage of tax-deferred retirement accounts (max your 401(k), max a traditional IRA). You'll still have relatively low cash flow for a long time, but at least you'll be saving for yourself and your family along the way.
Say you are married with no kids and a house, and come out of school making $75k per year.
- You max a 401(k): ($17000)
- and a traditional IRA ($5000)
- and say you have a $200k mortgage at 4%, making the interest deduction roughly $8000 per year to start
Discounting whatever other deductions you have from donations or continuing ed or student loan interest or whatever, that puts AGI at $45000.
The 2012 poverty level is $20,426; 150% of that is $30639.
That makes the difference $14631, and your yearly payment (15% of that) $2154, or roughly $180 a month. That's like a top-tier cable package, right? If that payment holds over 25 years, you're only paying back about $54K. But if the forgiveness doesn't pan out, you've been accruing interest all that time and are basically an indentured servant.
Of course the payment goes up with your spouse's income, and it assumes you can live without the $1800-ish a month you're funneling to retirement... But I'd rather have that go to me than the bank.
Sorry for the rant -- I'm trying to convince myself this is feasible, too... These are intimidating numbers!
IBR only works for federally-backed loans, though, not private ones. (so do Grad-PLUS instead if at all possible -- that's my hope for when the time comes)
It's potentially a really good deal, assuming the forgiveness actually happens at some point. You can push your AGI down pretty low if you end up with a mortgage interest deduction and can take advantage of tax-deferred retirement accounts (max your 401(k), max a traditional IRA). You'll still have relatively low cash flow for a long time, but at least you'll be saving for yourself and your family along the way.
Say you are married with no kids and a house, and come out of school making $75k per year.
- You max a 401(k): ($17000)
- and a traditional IRA ($5000)
- and say you have a $200k mortgage at 4%, making the interest deduction roughly $8000 per year to start
Discounting whatever other deductions you have from donations or continuing ed or student loan interest or whatever, that puts AGI at $45000.
The 2012 poverty level is $20,426; 150% of that is $30639.
That makes the difference $14631, and your yearly payment (15% of that) $2154, or roughly $180 a month. That's like a top-tier cable package, right? If that payment holds over 25 years, you're only paying back about $54K. But if the forgiveness doesn't pan out, you've been accruing interest all that time and are basically an indentured servant.
Of course the payment goes up with your spouse's income, and it assumes you can live without the $1800-ish a month you're funneling to retirement... But I'd rather have that go to me than the bank.
Sorry for the rant -- I'm trying to convince myself this is feasible, too... These are intimidating numbers!
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That's kind of my point. Most people who are under a great deal of debt get used to it and work out some sort of happy existence. We are human and we cope. However life's choices aren't available to them. They can never take time off between jobs, have kids, etc. etc. unless someone else supports them, i.e. a spouse, welfare, etc. Personally, I think some find the continuing low level of worry to be taxing and it wears on them. Once they go into student loan debt they can't unmake the choice. They lose a lot of freedom. Also if laws change, medicare payments change, whatever, they are stuck. They just have to eat it.
Meh, the income based repayment program or the 10 year public service loan forgiveness program seem like my only options at this point. Perhaps starting a PT/Wellness clinic would be a good option for paying off student loans, too, but it's not guaranteed.
I don't see what the point would be for me to go into nursing and get an RN, BSN, and MSN just to eventually accrue nearly the same amount of debt as I would for DPT, depending on the program I go to. While I would make more money as a nurse, switching to nursing would be a hassle and take so much more time.
I do have an escape route. Although it's not favorable, I would be able to pay off the student debt within a few years and be a "free" man. Afterwards I would possibly leave this country. 😆
I don't see what the point would be for me to go into nursing and get an RN, BSN, and MSN just to eventually accrue nearly the same amount of debt as I would for DPT, depending on the program I go to. While I would make more money as a nurse, switching to nursing would be a hassle and take so much more time.
I do have an escape route. Although it's not favorable, I would be able to pay off the student debt within a few years and be a "free" man. Afterwards I would possibly leave this country. 😆
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Lasombra, AGI (adjusted gross income) is before your deductions (taxable income). So, the percentage of what you have to pay for your loan payments would be based on gross income. Basically, look at the bottom of page one of your 1040; that's your AGI.
Whoops. So no mortgage interest deduction, then, or donations, local taxes, etc. But the retirement stuff and student loan interest still apply, and that's the bulk of it. (Box 1 on the W2 accounts for the 401k contribution, and form 1040 lines 32 and 33 for the IRA and student loan interest).
Just wondering - is there any way the APTA or CAPTE could *help* its members/students by working with colleges to decrease the cost of our (overblown) education? For instance, withhold accreditation if the total cost exceeds x amount, or something like that. Is that not *somehow* possible?
I just feel kind of shafted by both parties, considering it was the APTA's brainchild to move the entry-level PT degree to a doctorate, and CAPTE is the only accrediting body for PT schools in the US, and they're part and parcel of the APTA, a body that many practicing PTs don't even belong to....or am I just being paranoid here?
P.S., I have $130K in loans even with scholarship tuition then in-state tuition, plus working, and I went to a public school. This just feels like such a scam. 😡
I just feel kind of shafted by both parties, considering it was the APTA's brainchild to move the entry-level PT degree to a doctorate, and CAPTE is the only accrediting body for PT schools in the US, and they're part and parcel of the APTA, a body that many practicing PTs don't even belong to....or am I just being paranoid here?
P.S., I have $130K in loans even with scholarship tuition then in-state tuition, plus working, and I went to a public school. This just feels like such a scam. 😡
It is a scam. And it's putting many of us in bad situations.
I spoke with a physical therapist who was a 1984 graduate from a US News top 50 DPT program, and she was only in 12K debt for her education. Now in 2012, many of us are looking at 150K debt, and even from schools ranked in the US News bottom 150.
I know today's economy is not comparable to how it was in the '80s, but clearly something has got to give. There's no way that the 10 times increased tuition is justified; I don't care how advanced the facilities are! I don't know how DPT programs, APTA, CAPTE, or WHOEVER can consciously make these absurd demands for people looking to enter this profession. Bump up the qualifications from a bachelors to a masters to a doctors and multiply tuition rates by 10 for the same job, and it seems like something's not right here!
I wholeheartedly agree that some programs are too expensive.
With that being said, not EVERY program available is going to leave you with 100,000 dollars worth of debt. The financial aspect of higher education is very important, and many fail to realize how significant of an impact it will have on one's future. No one is being forced to go to a higher tuition public or private school. It is your responsibility to find a program you can afford.
However, the number of applicants for PT school isn't dwindling. Prices won't be going down.
Agreed, not EVERY program will leave you with >$100K in debt. But I don't know how many will leave you with much less anymore. I looked at nine different grad schools in the Southeast before I settled on one, for almost the sole reason that *it was the least expensive* of all of them (cost of living included), and I still ended up with $130K outstanding. It just seems like the APTA has hung people out to dry - they acknowledge the criticism that the DPT is too expensive, but then they in no way address that fact or make a move to ameliorate it.
I kind of believe that applications for PT schools aren't dwindling because no one is telling applicants the reality of the situation, and because taking on mountains of debt now seems like a better option than continuing to work at Starbuck's for the next fifteen years (speaking from personal experience there). Would be interesting to see if things change when freshly indebted graduates start to make up the bulk of the workforce/APTA....
I kind of believe that applications for PT schools aren't dwindling because no one is telling applicants the reality of the situation, and because taking on mountains of debt now seems like a better option than continuing to work at Starbuck's for the next fifteen years (speaking from personal experience there). Would be interesting to see if things change when freshly indebted graduates start to make up the bulk of the workforce/APTA....
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So if a DPT is making $80k per year and they have to pay 10% over 20 years then that comes out to.... $80k * 0.1 * 20 = $160k in payments and they don't get out of debt until they are 45 years old? WTF? Who came up with this deal?
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I think they honestly believe that if DPT's are more qualified then they'll be allowed to take on more responsibility and will be paid more.
What will give is Medicare/Medicaid payments. At some point the government will run out of money and simply say "No, we cannot afford to pay for PT at a level that let's you pay off your loans. Sorry."
That's already in the Affordable Care Act, i.e. $500Billion of Medicare cuts. There is more to come, I bet.
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That is a very good deal for someone who would be borrowing more than 180k for school. They would have repayed far more than 300k including interest with $800 monthly payments if nothing was forgiven. To pay it all off with the least amount of interest accruing >$2000/mo payments would have to be made for at least 10-14 years. It could be much easier (and less money) for someone to make $800 monthly payments and have it be stretched out longer.
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Also keep in mind not everyone is 150-200k in debt after PT school. Those are extreme highs are should not be considered average or necessary.
Yes, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average is hovering around $100K either, which is still too much. Are there any bona fide statistics out there on this? I'd love to be wrong....
By the way, when I said 150-200K debt, I was including expenses associated with educational costs (rent, books, health insurance, etc.) if you were to be entirely dependent on federal loans ALONG with possibility of going to an out-of-state or private.
I wouldn't get financial assistance from my parents, so I'd have no choice for at least the first year of school but to rely on federal loans. There are people in less fortunate positions like me trying to pursue this field....
I wouldn't get financial assistance from my parents, so I'd have no choice for at least the first year of school but to rely on federal loans. There are people in less fortunate positions like me trying to pursue this field....
This post kind of irked me. Not everyone is coming from the same economic background but that shouldn't mean you need to roll over and take outrageous debt. You might have to work harder but it's possible to get into a cheaper state school. My biggest and best piece of advice is not to rush into this decision as it will follow you for a good portion of your life.
Polish up your application, take some time off from school and work to save up money, research hospitals that have tuition reimbursement, apply for each and every scholarship listed on apta's website. There are options.
If you are so concerned with the debt to salary ratio. Go PTA. A much better short term investment. Sorry for being snarky, but c'mon...this is possible without handicapping your finances.
$29K a year for 3 years at a public in state school for tuition and books only. So that is $87K...far cry from $50 K and that is not including undergrad.
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I wasn't implying that every state school costs the same amount. I think you knew that?
