Prop 2... more detailed Q

[BlacKAT33]

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So I have been reading up on Proposition 2 because I haven't heard as much about it being over in the East Coast compared to Cali. I've read the text for prop 2 and then tried to obtain as much info as I can on both sides. I also read some previous threads about it so please don't respond to me by posting old threads 😀

So far I understand things on both sides : the welfare of animals, the possibility of great disease+other implications we are unaware of, the lack of details in the proposition, and the lack of public knowledge about the farming industry.

I realize some people say that the AVMA is against it because of financial reasons and others say that it is because of the lack of detail in the proposition. IMO... IMO!! I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe it is because of the lack of detail in the proposition and how it will not address all of the animal welfare issues for farm animals. When I read the text for Prop 2 I was extremely surprised how little detail was in it, and basically all of the quotes about "animals must be able to stand up and turn around" was the whole text! I couldn't believe how little detail was in it.

So finally, my question is, if the AVMA (or other people against prop 2) realize that something needs to be done to change the current welfare of farm animals, why haven't they put forward another proposition that incorporates some aspects of Prop 2 with slight changes and more detail that will solve more of the probelms? I assume that you can't just make changes to a proposition since it needs to be passed at different stages, but why not put forward something that the AVMA and most veterinarians agree with...? (something helping their welfare that doesn't cause alarm about safe food/diseases etc)

sorry for this long post!! it has just been bugging me and i would like to understand more 😀

 

[Smileystar5]

You should look at Ohio's Issue 2. It recently passed in November and I think it's a good way of bringing together a variety of perspectives to really work on the issue. Although, we'll see if it's very effective or efficient.

 

[BlacKAT33]

You should look at Ohio's Issue 2. It recently passed in November and I think it's a good way of bringing together a variety of perspectives to really work on the issue. Although, we'll see if it's very effective or efficient.

ok, on to my second investigation for today lol

 

[THEOSU2012]

Hey,

To add to your investigation, I wrote about Issue 2 in response to a thread about a month ago here on SDN. If you can find it, there are links to the actual text of Issue 2.

Good luck!

 

[HandD42]

I think the other major problem with prop 2 was that existing farms could not be grandfathered in, they have to meet these standards in 5 years or shut down. However my understanding is that no financial assistance has been made available to help farms make and sustain these changes (not just building new caging but also the possible revenue loss of housing fewer animals, esp. laying hens).

....Does anyone know if any type of funding was provided as a part of prop 2?

I think any type of regulation legislation needs to have the foresight to provide assistance to the farmers and industries making these changes (ie provide funding, extended timeline, possible exceptions in extreme cases) in order for these changes to be economically feasible for operations of all sizes.

 

[BlacKAT33]

I think the other major problem with prop 2 was that farms were not grandfathered in. Either you met these new standards or you shut down. There was no funding or time allotted to make these changes so farms and businesses had to simply shut their doors.

I think any type of regulation legislation needs to have the foresight to provide assistance to the farmers and industries making these changes (ie provide funding, extended timeline, possible exceptions in extreme cases) in order for these changes to be economically feasible for operations of all sizes.

I do agree with this. I think i remember 2015 was the time line? I'm not a LA person, so is 5 yrs still not enough time to make the changes? I feel like that would be enough time, but the big problem would be where do you house all of the animals while their cages are being changed? I guess because of this problem maybe 10 years would be better? or maybe a rotation for the farms that includes a certain number per year change over during the course of 20 yrs til they are all finished? maybe this idea is stupid lol

So I've read the ohio issue 2 now and I do remember this from a while ago I just get all these names confused! lol This does seem like a better direction than prop 2 (although i can understand why some people think there are still flaws). But I was thinking more about something like the Animal Welfare Act for large animals/farms. I feel like this is what prop 2 was trying to do, although they did a bad job with their wording and details. So why not start making an act that includes farm animals?

 

[NYCVetToBe]

Ohio's issue 2 hasn't really done anything yet, it has just changed who is able to advise on what is done in the future. Now, HSUS is prevented from coming in to put propositions on the ballot to be voted on by the masses, right? The committee created by issue 2's passing now decides what animal welfare/meat safety standards will be.

 

[twelvetigers]

I also read some previous threads about it so please don't respond to me by posting old threads 😀

Now who would ever do that?

 

[Minnerbelle]

i'm not a LA/food production person at all so someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought one of the biggest cons to prop 2 (which pretty much bans farrowing crates, gestation crates, veal crates, and battery cages i believe) is that there's a lot more to farm animal welfare than just free movement.

the reason that gestation crates and battery cages are used is at least in part to prevent fights between animals. and the reason for the farrowing crates is to prevent the sow from trampling over her piglets. with the high output farming methods we currently have, animals will apparently get hurt without the crates/cages. also, the above methods help prevent disease to a certain degree.

though prop 2 would allow for "free movement," it doesn't propose anything to alleviate the reasons why these methods were needed in the first place. so it's not as easy as just getting rid of these cages, if people want to continue eating meat and dairy at the level that we are now. hope that makes sense (or maybe i just got my info from a very biased source?)

P.S. i'm really bummed out that i didn't get the chance to see the new bolton campus for penn, but they have an awesome swine teaching and research unit that studies the best approaches to produce pigs while keeping animal welfare in mind. http://www.vet.upenn.edu/NewBoltonC...eachingandResearchUnit/tabid/837/Default.aspx

 

[BlacKAT33]

twelvetigers-

minnerbelle- Ooo does it ban all crates? maybe i read it too fast i thought that there could still be crates/cages etc except that had to be bigger.
Is this the real Prop 2 text? http://ag.ca.gov/cms_pdfs/initiatives/2007-08-09_07-0041_Initiative.pdf I could have also been reading a source that isn't correct

This pig facility looks great! So does this mean that no one gets to see the Bolton campus for the tour interview? because it's so far away?

 

[Minnerbelle]

minnerbelle- Ooo does it ban all crates? maybe i read it too fast i thought that there could still be crates/cages etc except that had to be bigger.
Is this the real Prop 2 text? http://ag.ca.gov/cms_pdfs/initiatives/2007-08-09_07-0041_Initiative.pdf I could have also been reading a source that isn't correct

This pig facility looks great! So does this mean that no one gets to see the Bolton campus for the tour interview? because it's so far away?

I guess you could still have a crate... but compared to how battery cages are now, it would take a hell of a lot more space to individually place chicken in cages. All I'm saying is that from my understanding, it's not feasible to keep producing at nearly the same level that we are now with these new restrictions unless something else is compromised (amount of product, cost, welfare, etc...). and this may be a bit more biased, but i heard from more unreliable sources that this makes it so that the only thing prop 2 will accomplish is drive out farmers from california.

but sadly nope... unless you're in the new bolton interview group, you won't see it at all. though i'm sure if you wanted to you can arrange to get there yourself.

 

[BlacKAT33]

I guess you could still have a crate... but compared to how battery cages are now, it would take a hell of a lot more space to individually place chicken in cages. All I'm saying is that from my understanding, it's not feasible to keep producing at nearly the same level that we are now with these new restrictions unless something else is compromised (amount of product, cost, welfare, etc...). and this may be a bit more biased, but i heard from more unreliable sources that this makes it so that the only thing prop 2 will accomplish is drive out farmers from california.

but sadly nope... unless you're in the new bolton interview group, you won't see it at all. though i'm sure if you wanted to you can arrange to get there yourself.

Ya the space issue would be a huge problem and also funding to make all of the changes

i assume the new bolton interview group is for people who wrote about going towards LA? BOO i want to see the pathology labs lol

 

[CorporateFatCat]

It was my understanding--and unfortunately this might mean more research for you blacKAT33--that the UK passed a similar law as prop 2 a couple of years ago. Their solution was a contraption they call "furnished cages". These cages are larger bird cages which include a dust bath, perches, etc. Unfortunately, the research on these cages shows that the hens would still not have enough room to abide by the law, they were breaking bones, and having some of the same problems as free-range hens (is it canabalism? I forget...).

It was a very heated battle between Ag production, the general public, and animal activists here in CA, as you probably know. Personally, I was very much against it because I think it means all of our egg laying hens will be packing their bags and moving to beautiful Mexico. That means a large portion of CA's economy could also disappear and leave us in a worse state than we are in right now.

Lastly, we don't have veal farms in CA. I don't know why they were included in the law. I also thought I heard gestation crates were out the door, but maybe not. I wish I could remember some other things that made prop 2 flawed, but I'm just trying to let it go at this point. 😳

I was just so pissed when I woud see the pro Prop 2 commercials and they would show a cow being rolled on the muddy ground by a forklift. WTF? 😡

 

[eventualeventer]

Cynical eventualeventer spouting off from the other side of the country about losing agriculture in CA: I frankly don't think that the public or the people in power in CA or any other populous state gives a rat's rear about ACTUALLY supporting agriculture -- they give it lip service while cutting it off at the knees financially and consistently underfunding agricultural research, extension, education, etc., at the state level. People don't know and/or don't care about the agriculture happening in their state, so nothing is done until it's too late.

RE: ethical issues. I honestly don't know what the answer is. If you recognize these animals as having some sort of right or reasonable expectation of quality of life prior to consumption, you quickly run into major sustainability issues. In order to ameliorate humane issues like aggression, chicken cannibalism, pigs chewing on each other, and stereotypies (not to mention herd health issues from high concentrations of animals), the practices used have to be fundamentally changed in a way that may drastically increase price, land required, labor required, and/or environmental impact per animal raised.

 

[BlacKAT33]

thanks for everyones input!! i have learned a lot 🙂 I think I will look into that UK law, thanks corporatefatcat!

 

[HandD42]

Is it weird that I dreamed about gestation crates and baby (nude) chickens all crammed together in a factory/warehouse all last night?

I think this application process is taking a toll on my sanity.

 

[Willowhand]

Last night I dreamed that I was a little kid and Nazis came and took away all the adults. I and the other children were taken to a strip mall and told to fend for ourselves, so I set up camp inside a Petsmart and appointed myself guardian of the animals. Eventually the adults came back, but I didn't want to give up my animal friends so I built a fort in the rafters and refused to be captured.

HandD42, you are not alone in odd dreams...

 

[flyhi]

Wow.

 

[twelvetigers]

I had a dream I was listening to Lady Gaga while sorting my underwear (seriously).

Guess the app process hasn't gotten to me yet?