Pros/cons to certain internship sites...

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nobleheart

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Specifically, I was wondering what disadvantages could occur if one were to complete their internship in a forensic/prison setting, and the individual ultimately wanted to do neuropsych.

some cons:

--not necessarily a diverse population (neuropathologically)

--so forensic in nature that one's general experience might be too limited

thanks for any input in adavance,
T

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I think the biggest red flag is your preference for neuropsych. I know the formalized 2 year neuropsych post-docs are competitive, and I'm not sure if a forensic psych would make you competitive in that area. With that being said, it is still a possibility, and I've seen a number of forensic sites that have a medical component which may allow you to do some neuropsych stuff during your internship.

I'm in the same boat trying to find the right fit for internship, and I'm trying to find sites that have good placements for post-docs. I'd rather stay on somewhere and do my post-doc, instead of moving again.

-t
 
I'm not interested in neuropsych or forensics, but on a somewhat related note:

What about the pros/cons of doing a hospital based internship vs. a one based out of a smaller clinic?
 
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I'm not interested in neuropsych or forensics, but on a somewhat related note:

What about the pros/cons of doing a hospital based internship vs. a one based out of a smaller clinic?

hospital pros---> probably more diverse training experiences, sometimes offer multiple rotations, different populations, may have more research opportunities available
cons---> some people don't have an interest in working in hospital settings, tx is often short term

clinic pros--> longer term tx, etc.
cons--> opposite of hospital pros

This is sort of off the top of my head. I think I'd prefer hospital because of the diversity of training, and because I want to do a research-oriented internship, and most of those seem to be at hospitals.

Sorry, don't know much about forensics.

Anyone applying for internship in the next year or 2?
 
psychanon: I'm applying this year

Here are some more (my top choices are all hospitals). Many of these can also be for smaller sites, so YMMV.

Pros
Some of the best training
May have a wider range of cases, or not
Typically more severe cases
Research opportunities (mostly at academic teaching hospitals)

Cons
Usually very competitive
Can be very political / Have to maneuver around egos
Red tape
Can be limited in what you see (if you work in a specific area, and refer out everything else)

-t
 
psychanon: I'm applying this year


-t

I'm probably applying next year. Sometimes I think about applying this year (I'm starting my 4th year)-- i could do it, I've proposed my dissertation and logistically it would work--but i'm not sure if i'd have enough pubs to get a research oriented one, or if I have enough clinical hours. Do you know where you're applying yet?
 
I'm probably applying next year. Sometimes I think about applying this year (I'm starting my 4th year)-- i could do it, I've proposed my dissertation and logistically it would work--but i'm not sure if i'd have enough pubs to get a research oriented one, or if I have enough clinical hours. Do you know where you're applying yet?

Could you apply this year and see if you matched anywhere you would want to go? Then, if you don't, you could re-apply. If you limited your apps this year to places you really, you may lose some money/time, but you could potentially gain one year of earnings.

Would this be a good idea for someone in his/her position?
 
Would someone mind giving me a brief rundown of how clinical hours work? I'm going to be starting to accrue them in like, 3 weeks and I have NO idea how I'm even supposed to be recording them. How many do most people graduate with? (I realize it varies). Are the clinic hours client-contact hours or is time spent discussing clients with supervisors and such also counted?

I'm incredibly ignorant of this whole process, I never really thought about it too much since I'm not really here for clinical work (at least not in the grand scheme of things, though its obviously one more stepping stone on the path to academia), but lo and behold it looks like I'm going to be getting a fair number of hours already between some community volunteer work and a research study with a counseling component.
 
Could you apply this year and see if you matched anywhere you would want to go? Then, if you don't, you could re-apply. If you limited your apps this year to places you really, you may lose some money/time, but you could potentially gain one year of earnings.

Would this be a good idea for someone in his/her position?

Her, btw. Yeah, i could do that, but I don't know if it's the best idea. I know someone in my program did that a few years ago, only ranking one place, and he didn't match, and brought the stats down for my program. The DCT seemed mad about that-- it reflects poorly on the program, and I wouldn't want to be the cause of that. Plus, applying for internship is a really stressful process-- everyone says that it's more stressful than applying for grad school.

I think I'll talk to my adviser about it. Most people in my program stay 5 years or sometimes more, under the logic that they'll get more pubs and be more likely to get a faculty position without post-doc. But I think I'd rather have a post-doc than stay a 5th year-- I'd get paid more and could live in a better location. I love my program but hate the location-- as does my S.O., who moved here with me. I also haven't done an externship-- I've only seen clients in our in-house clinic, and so far i haven't bothered lining anything up for next year. I've heard that it doesn't matter so much to have externships for research oriented internships, but it really does for non-researchy internships, and while I'd prefer research oriented, I might need some "safeties".

I'd love to get some more feedback.

Ollie, don't worry so much about this. Everyone says that you should start an Excel file and keep track of all of your clinical hours, but I don't know anyone who actually did that. It's probably a good idea, but it'd be a big pain-- I'd rather do all the work at once when I apply. Basically, when you apply for internship, you need to give a tally of how many hours you spent doing ANY kind of clinical work. This includes assessment (including for your lab), therapy, testing, supervision, EVERYTHING. You also need to break it down by what kind of client (disorder, etc.), what age group, and what ethnicity. Check APPIC.org if you want specifics (but don't spend too much time there-- you'll just freak yourself out). My clinic keeps track of all this for me, and we have records in my lab of what participants I interviewed and how long it took. You can really estimate a lot of it, too-- nobody expects it to be exact, and in fact I suspect that a lot of people inflate their hours.
 
Thanks folks. The application is long, but it wasn't THAT scary. Does seem a lot to keep track of though.

I think I am going to build up an Excel spreadsheet though since I think it will be helpful, and I'm an IT-geek anyways. At least that will help ME keep track of my hours and make sure I'm getting experience in enough different areas as I'm going.

Though given I have no desire whatsoever to work with children, I will be trying to minimize those hours:)
 
Dr. Snow,

The other internships I am interesed in offer "concentrations" in NP as "major" rotations. They claim this satisfies div. 40?

Could one satisfy the Div. 40 reqs by doing a general internship( with less than 50% NP...minor rotation), but doing a 100% NP post-doc?

Thanks in advance,
T
 
What fantastic timing you guys, my grad school just emailed me this website:

http://www.uky.edu/Education/EDP/cnpsred.html

It has a link to an Excel spreadsheet for keeping track of your clinical hours and information about how to do so. The email mentioned that it's definitely better to log it each semester rather than all at the end when you're applying for internship.

So for anybody too lazy to make their own spreadsheet (i.e., me) it's pretty much fantastic.
 
Plus, applying for internship is a really stressful process-- everyone says that it's more stressful than applying for grad school.

I a word - YES - it is more stressful than applying for grad school. I would not apply for internship unless you are really committed to going. It's too much da%^n work. ;)

I think I'll talk to my adviser about it. Most people in my program stay 5 years or sometimes more, under the logic that they'll get more pubs and be more likely to get a faculty position without post-doc. But I think I'd rather have a post-doc than stay a 5th year-- I'd get paid more and could live in a better location. I love my program but hate the location-- as does my S.O., who moved here with me. I also haven't done an externship-- I've only seen clients in our in-house clinic, and so far i haven't bothered lining anything up for next year. I've heard that it doesn't matter so much to have externships for research oriented internships, but it really does for non-researchy internships, and while I'd prefer research oriented, I might need some "safeties".

I did 5 years for the same reasons you mentioned - it gave me an opportunity to publish more, collect ancillary data to take with me, and finish and defend my dissertation prior to leaving for internship. I had proposed the spring of my 3rd year, but there is no way I would have had all of the data collected and the manuscript written by the end of my 4th year. Going the 5 year route, I had plenty of time. Having seen my peers try to finish their dissertations during internship, all I can say is that I am really happy that I took the 5 years. Having my dissertation done also allowed me to jump right into manuscript writing with my new mentor on internship.

Also, I did my internship at one of the most competitive "reasearch-oriented" internships, and I wouldn't discount the importance of having meaningful and diverse clinical experiences on your vita. They're not necessarily looking for tons of hours, but they recognize that this is a clinical year and that interns are going to be working in clinical settings for most of the time - as a result, they ARE looking for good researchers and good clinicians. Completing an externship - especially if you will have exposure to a certain population of interest - can give you a leg up. If you can tie that clinical experience to your research interests, that's even better. For me, taking the 5th year gave me an opportunity to do an externship that I talked about quite a bit in my applications...

Just some things to consider... Good luck!
 
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I a word - YES - it is more stressful than applying for grad school. I would not apply for internship unless you are really committed to going. It's too much da%^n work. ;)

I did 5 years for the same reasons you mentioned - it gave me an opportunity to publish more, collect ancillary data to take with me, and finish and defend my dissertation prior to leaving for internship. I had proposed the spring of my 3rd year, but there is no way I would have had all of the data collected and the manuscript written by the end of my 4th year. Going the 5 year route, I had plenty of time. Having seen my peers try to finish their dissertations during internship, all I can say is that I am really happy that I took the 5 years. Having my dissertation done also allowed me to jump right into manuscript writing with my new mentor on internship.

Also, I did my internship at one of the most competitive "reasearch-oriented" internships, and I wouldn't discount the importance of having meaningful and diverse clinical experiences on your vita. They're not necessarily looking for tons of hours, but they recognize that this is a clinical year and that interns are going to be working in clinical settings for most of the time - as a result, they ARE looking for good researchers and good clinicians. Completing an externship - especially if you will have exposure to a certain population of interest - can give you a leg up. If you can tie that clinical experience to your research interests, that's even better. For me, taking the 5th year gave me an opportunity to do an externship that I talked about quite a bit in my applications...

Just some things to consider... Good luck!

I really appreciate this advice-- I've been asking around with these questions, and I keep getting inconsistent answers (especially about whether or not externships are critical). I have two more related questions for you:

1) I was offered an externship that would involve doing therapy in an outpatient clinic, with CBT supervision-- basically the same experience that I get in my in-house clinic, but at a different place. Is that something that internships look for? Or is it more important to get experience with different types of populations? I could do the externship, but it would be inconvenient for me to fit it into my schedule and to drive 45 minutes to it.

2) Do you think that you could have accomplished the same stuff by taking 4 years in grad school and then doing an extra year of post-doc after internship? You say that by finishing your dissertation before leaving, you were able to collaborate with your internship mentor and produce more publications than you would have otherwise. If you had left one year earlier, finished writing your diss on internship (let's pretend you were able to collect all your data before you left), and then taken an extra post-doc year to write more manuscripts to make up for the ones you didn't have time to write while on internship, would you have come out in the same place at the same time? Does what I'm saying make sense? I see 3 main advantages to this scenario: a) you get to move somewhere new for internship/ post-doc (important to me because I hate where I live now); b) you get paid more on post-doc than you do in grad student; and c) you get the satisfaction of being done and having your doctorate one year soon.
 
1) I was offered an externship that would involve doing therapy in an outpatient clinic, with CBT supervision-- basically the same experience that I get in my in-house clinic, but at a different place. Is that something that internships look for? Or is it more important to get experience with different types of populations? I could do the externship, but it would be inconvenient for me to fit it into my schedule and to drive 45 minutes to it.

The APPIC application has a plethora of questions/stats needed on the demographics of the populations you've worked with, I'd think working with a more diverse population would be better than working with the same population for longer.

2) Do you think that you could have accomplished the same stuff by taking 4 years in grad school and then doing an extra year of post-doc after internship? You say that by finishing your dissertation before leaving, you were able to collaborate with your internship mentor and produce more publications than you would have otherwise. If you had left one year earlier, finished writing your diss on internship (let's pretend you were able to collect all your data before you left), and then taken an extra post-doc year to write more manuscripts to make up for the ones you didn't have time to write while on internship, would you have come out in the same place at the same time?

1. Producing more publications would help his application to sites, so he may not have been able to get placed at his site of choice if he didn't have the extra publications/experience.

2. Some sites provide time for people to work on their diss/research, but many don't, and even if you wanted to work on it, you may not have time. I've heard of some sites (many of the ones I'm looking at!) really work their interns hard, so assuming you'd be able to get substantial work done on your diss would be a mistake, though there are sites that encourage their people to do this, YMMV.

-t
 
I've always wondered how anyone gets out in 4 years in a research-oriented program.

Almost every school I looked at 5 years of school +1 internship was the norm. That doesn't mean I'm saying its BAD to do in 4 years, I just don't understand the timing of it. If you're done with your thesis around the time year 3 starts (which I think is about the norm) you would have to start on your dissertation IMMEDIATELY, and seriously crank to get it done in time.

I'm happy to take the extra year, even at a lower wage, since I worry I'd end up cutting corners on the dissertation to try and get out in 4 years. I have the utmost respect for people that can pull it off with a great product at the end, but I don't expect I will be one of them.
 
I've always wondered how anyone gets out in 4 years in a research-oriented program.

Almost every school I looked at 5 years of school +1 internship was the norm. That doesn't mean I'm saying its BAD to do in 4 years, I just don't understand the timing of it. If you're done with your thesis around the time year 3 starts (which I think is about the norm) you would have to start on your dissertation IMMEDIATELY, and seriously crank to get it done in time.

I'm happy to take the extra year, even at a lower wage, since I worry I'd end up cutting corners on the dissertation to try and get out in 4 years. I have the utmost respect for people that can pull it off with a great product at the end, but I don't expect I will be one of them.

That was one of my biggest concerns about some of the PhD programs I looked at, it seemed like 5 was the norm (sometimes 6?!). I am a bad procrastinator and since my clinical interests require licensure, I was worried about dragging it out, then not finishing during internship, and then having to go back and finish....all while holding up my license.

I have my research out of the way right now, and I'm STILL swamped with internship, finishing up my clinical hours, etc. I can't imagine working full time on research and etc through all of this.

-t
 
Of the 13 schools I applied to, only 1 had students regularly graduate in 4 years. A few others set 4 as a "goal" that almost no one actually achieved.

Every program I looked at was 5, though there's always stragglers taking anywhere from 6-8 or even 9 years. If I have to go 6 I won't be happy, but much more than that and I will be most unhappy.

It makes sense for you to want out in 4, given you are more interested in clinical work. For anyone looking at academic jobs though, I think that 5th year would make a world of difference in terms of getting a dissertation out that could get you 1 or more publications in a major journal, vs. one that may get you graduated but isn't exactly groundbreaking.

I'm admittedly knew to all this since I haven't even started my thesis yet, but given the time we've spent getting other peoples projects together, it seems like you'd almost HAVE to cut corners in order to get things done in that short a time, and given the competition for tenure-track academic jobs these days, that seems kind of short-sighted to me.
 
I attend a very heavily research-based program (the most productive department I applied to) and 4 years is normal here. 5 happens but isn't common, and 6+ is virtually unheard of and very strongly discouraged by the department. Students are getting out with a lot of pubs (including those who really just want to practice or do consulting).

I think a lot of it has to do with how dedicated the department actually is to getting students through in a timely manner. We were encouraged to form our Masters committee during our first meeting with our advisors, and everyone from the Training Director to the Grad School Dean told us to learn to love B's, if it means that you're doing research instead of nitpicking coursework.
 
1) I was offered an externship that would involve doing therapy in an outpatient clinic, with CBT supervision-- basically the same experience that I get in my in-house clinic, but at a different place. Is that something that internships look for? Or is it more important to get experience with different types of populations? I could do the externship, but it would be inconvenient for me to fit it into my schedule and to drive 45 minutes to it.

I agree with what Therapist4Change said - it's probably more important to have an externship opportunity that is going to provide you with exposure to a new skill or population. If you're just doing the same thing in a different place, I'm not sure how much more diversity you will have in your application.

2) Do you think that you could have accomplished the same stuff by taking 4 years in grad school and then doing an extra year of post-doc after internship? You say that by finishing your dissertation before leaving, you were able to collaborate with your internship mentor and produce more publications than you would have otherwise. If you had left one year earlier, finished writing your diss on internship (let's pretend you were able to collect all your data before you left), and then taken an extra post-doc year to write more manuscripts to make up for the ones you didn't have time to write while on internship, would you have come out in the same place at the same time? Does what I'm saying make sense? I see 3 main advantages to this scenario: a) you get to move somewhere new for internship/ post-doc (important to me because I hate where I live now); b) you get paid more on post-doc than you do in grad student; and c) you get the satisfaction of being done and having your doctorate one year soon.

Quite honestly, I know very few people who have landed a faculty position directly out of internship. Even at my site, which is extremely competitive (and most likely on your list), only a few interns went directly into faculty jobs - and those were at less competitive institutions (i.e., regional universities or colleges). Regardless of how long it takes you in grad school, I would anticipate a postdoc as the norm. You have to remember that, as an intern, you will be competing against postdocs for these jobs (in addition to other Assistant Profs who are looking to make lateral moves) - and just by virtue of time, they will most likely have a more extensive vita, possibly with extramural funding.

So if you have a good handle on your dissertation, and feel like you could get it done in time, maybe going in 4 years wouldn't be so bad? But again, there's nothing worse that working a full-time clinical job and having to write your dissertation on evenings and weekends. Even at the most "research-oriented" sites you only have a few (e.g., 4) hours a week of protected research time. The rest of the time, you're providing patient care or attending didactics.

I know it is tempting to go "early," because we all get a bit sick of being in grad school and just want to get on with our lives. Likewise, I know it's tempting to think that a postdoc may not be necessary. But sometimes being patient has huge rewards. Ellen Frank puts it quite nicely in this brief interview:

http://www.cdibipolar.org/interviewView.php?id=106&video=1&audio=1

(and no, I'm not at Western Psych!)

By doing a full research postdoc, I was in a position to publish A LOT and submit an NIH grant that funded my transition to faculty at a prestigious academic medical school (in a time when funding has been cut dramatically). If I had gone out on my own right out of internship, I would not have had the resources, mentorship, or the time to establish my program of research the way a postdoc has allowed me to.

And by the way, T4C, I'm a woman. :)
 
Wow, good for you and your department if they can pull that off JN. I think its probably quite rare, at least among the schools I looked at. You're my neighbor to the north at UF, right? Or do I have you confused with someone else?

I'm figuring on at least 2 years of post-doc, though I'll probably send out apps to faculty positions alongside my post-doc apps just to see. On that note, since I believe you are required a certain number of post-doc hours beyond internship to get licensed, what happens if you get a faculty job? I thought most schools wanted licensed profs so they could supervise...

I'm also going to work my ass off to try and get a grant or two as a student though, since I figure having a track record of funding that early makes a faculty job that much more likely.
 
I agree with what Therapist4Change said - it's probably more important to have an externship opportunity that is going to provide you with exposure to a new skill or population. If you're just doing the same thing in a different place, I'm not sure how much more diversity you will have in your application.

yeah, that's what others have told me. i think i'll turn that one down and see what else I can do. unless i can land something at the last minute, that might be a major weakness in my internship application as of now.

Quite honestly, I know very few people who have landed a faculty position directly out of internship. Even at my site, which is extremely competitive (and most likely on your list), only a few interns went directly into faculty jobs - and those were at less competitive institutions (i.e., regional universities or colleges). Regardless of how long it takes you in grad school, I would anticipate a postdoc as the norm. You have to remember that, as an intern, you will be competing against postdocs for these jobs (in addition to other Assistant Profs who are looking to make lateral moves) - and just by virtue of time, they will most likely have a more extensive vita, possibly with extramural funding.

yeah, I realize that I'll probably have to do a post-doc either way, and honestly that doesn't bother me too much (especially if I can do it in the same location as my internship, so I won't have to move both myself and my boyfriend after only one year). I'm not sure I'd be ready to set out on my own in just a couple of years anyway, and it would be good to work with other researchers to add diversity to my training (not to mention networking). But I'm wondering if by doing only 4 years grad school rather than 5 and then more post-doc (2-3 yrs instead of 1-2), I could achieve the same ends, and be able to move to a new place and make more money in the same amount of time.


But again, there's nothing worse that working a full-time clinical job and having to write your dissertation on evenings and weekends. Even at the most "research-oriented" sites you only have a few (e.g., 4) hours a week of protected research time. The rest of the time, you're providing patient care or attending didactics.

that's a good point, and something that I'll have to think about.

And by the way, T4C, I'm a woman. :)

yeah, what's up with people assuming we're men unless we have a feminine handle? in a field that's about 80-90% female? :smuggrin:
 
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