Proud to be am Img

[immunopath]

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Hello everyone, this is actually my first post on sdn. I am a 27 year old med student currently in my 4th year (med shook here is 6 years) of med school in South America. I have heard a lot of snobby/ignorant comments regarding the notion that IMG's are subpar to he US counterpart students. Quite frankly, I must strongly disagree, maybe we are subpar in the eyes of some residency directors and other future US trained colegues (wich obviously matters a great deal) but I have to express how proud I am to be able to work and study in a different geographical area. First off, I have wanted to be a pathologist for many years now and I have no doubt in my mind that the range of pathology I have been exposed to here is something a US doctor would envy or probably never see during med school and even have difficulties diagnosing. In my short time here (4 years of school) I have seen bread and butter medicine as well as numerous cases of Chagas' disease, dengue fever, malaria, leishmaniasis and other parasitic infections, yellow fever, and even about 5 cases of leprosy. Also with less restrictions here in South America regarding how much interaction student doctors have with patients, I feel we have a huge advantage over our US trained counterparts, does anyone else feel this way? ÔI was wondering if this clinical exposure during my schooling here could be viewed as a positive asset when it comes to interviews for path residency in a few years ( obviously with good scores, publications, etc.)

 

[mlw03]

Uh, no, probably not. You can paint whatever picture you want, but unless you have a really good reason for having done so, program directors of US residency programs will view US IMGs with caution in comparison to their US-trained counterparts. Canada is probably the only exception to that rule.

I don't disagree with some of your points, but I do not think your interpretation of them will be correct. Assuming you are training in and can speak Spanish, that also will not help you for a pathology residency program in the US, even in areas with big Spanish speaking populations. Sorry.

 

[Trogghunter]

F-that/med school in non-america. A bald eagle just died.

 

[Substance]

Uh, no, probably not. You can paint whatever picture you want, but unless you have a really good reason for having done so, program directors of US residency programs will view US IMGs with caution in comparison to their US-trained counterparts. Canada is probably the only exception to that rule.

I don't disagree with some of your points, but I do not think your interpretation of them will be correct. Assuming you are training in and can speak Spanish, that also will not help you for a pathology residency program in the US, even in areas with big Spanish speaking populations. Sorry.

Canada has an even bigger wall than the US when it comes to recruiting IMGs. They must be permanent residents or citizens of Canada, with no exceptions. They are also required to sign return of service agreements to work in remote areas for years. Also, though some spots are available in the first round for IMGs in specialties that are considered competitive and therefore better like dermatology, radiology, urology etc., programs often do not fill these spots, or take someone based on patronage.

 

[pathololology]

Hello everyone, this is actually my first post on sdn. I am a 27 year old med student currently in my 4th year (med shook here is 6 years) of med school in South America. I have heard a lot of snobby/ignorant comments regarding the notion that IMG's are subpar to he US counterpart students. Quite frankly, I must strongly disagree, maybe we are subpar in the eyes of some residency directors and other future US trained colegues (wich obviously matters a great deal) but I have to express how proud I am to be able to work and study in a different geographical area. First off, I have wanted to be a pathologist for many years now and I have no doubt in my mind that the range of pathology I have been exposed to here is something a US doctor would envy or probably never see during med school and even have difficulties diagnosing. In my short time here (4 years of school) I have seen bread and butter medicine as well as numerous cases of Chagas' disease, dengue fever, malaria, leishmaniasis and other parasitic infections, yellow fever, and even about 5 cases of leprosy. Also with less restrictions here in South America regarding how much interaction student doctors have with patients, I feel we have a huge advantage over our US trained counterparts, does anyone else feel this way? ÔI was wondering if this clinical exposure during my schooling here could be viewed as a positive asset when it comes to interviews for path residency in a few years ( obviously with good scores, publications, etc.)

I don't think people view FMGs as subpar at all. However, you don't have tons of US grads trying to get into your residency programs and taking spots from your classmates. I think it leaves a sour taste in some people's mouths. Most FMGs I have worked with are very smart and very capable, but if they have trouble speaking the language, it can be very frustrating for both the program and the resident, and it can make it very hard to get a job afterwards. Those that have good command of the language do very well, but even in pathology you have to be able to communicate with physicians. I don't think that your clinical exposure really does anything b/c even US grads get clinical exposure in our 3rd and 4th years (we usually only do like 1 month of a pathology elective). Also, I don't think that experience seeing rarer tropical diseases that we just don't see in the US would be that valuable. Cool and interesting yes, but they are rare for a reason and even rarer here.

 

[LADoc00]

Fact: Perhaps the greatest surgical Pathologist who has ever lived was from South America (albiet via the Italian variant of the ODESSA Ratline..but whatever).

Aside from that, every country has the right to be protectionist and does in some fashion.

Im SURE if I showed in your home country tonight with armful of Ivy League class credentials under my arm your people would still make me jump through hoops to see 1 colon polyp.

For me EVERYONE is subpar until they prove themselves. The Marine Corps has it right: everyone is just a maggot until they earn the privilege to be American Pathologists.

 

[pathololology]

I guess the short answer to your question (in my opinion) would be just to make a convincing argument why you want to train as a pathologist here in the US and you could state that you have an interest in tropical diseases and that you would like to continue that interest in the US. I'm sure programs in Texas, Southern California, Louisiana etc. see those types of diseases not too infrequently . . . .

 

[pathstudent]

Many of the guiding lights in pathology were IMGs/FMGs.

Heck. The four below are FMGs and have contributed more to US pathology than about any AMG working in private practice.

Vinay Kumar
Abul Abbas
Nelson Fausto
Juan Rosai

From what a PD once explained to me is that they prefer AMGs as they know what they are getting with an AMG. They know what the resident likely knows and doesn't know when they start. That is probably the main difference.

 

[LADoc00]

The main reason is COMMUNICATION SKILLS. I didnt realize that was even doubt as the reason.

That is by far the biggest issues with FMGs. Some are so bad you cant understand over half the words they are trying to speak.


For example no one would consider a guy from Univ of London really an "FMG" in the derogatory sense of the term.

Im fairly certain PDs dont think AMGs have some higher known base IQ or something. This isnt a 'Bell Curve Hypothesis' situation folks.

 

[immunopath]

Thank You all for your input. I am american born and raised an chose the country of Colombia for medschool because I have family that still lives here and I have a large interest in infectious disease. I do have another question, will a masters or phd significantly help my chances at getting into a decent program ? If so, is it worth it?

 

[immunopath]

And thank you pathstudent for pointing out that those brilliant pathologists are IMG's. I think it gives us all something to think about.

 

[pathololology]

Thank You all for your input. I am american born and raised an chose the country of Colombia for medschool because I have family that still lives here and I have a large interest in infectious disease. I do have another question, will a masters or phd significantly help my chances at getting into a decent program ? If so, is it worth it?

No. I would just try and match first. If at that point, you don't match anywhere, then you can consider a PhD program in the US. It would help your chances if you don't match the first time. I wouldn't waste the time though if you don't need to. Now, if you really want a PhD or a Masters, thats different, but if you aren't dying to get either one, then I would just try and match right into a path program after med school. . . .

 

[qxrt]

The main reason is COMMUNICATION SKILLS. I didnt realize that was even doubt as the reason.

That is by far the biggest issues with FMGs. Some are so bad you cant understand over half the words they are trying to speak.


For example no one would consider a guy from Univ of London really an "FMG" in the derogatory sense of the term.

Im fairly certain PDs dont think AMGs have some higher known base IQ or something. This isnt a 'Bell Curve Hypothesis' situation folks.

Is this thread about true FMGs or US-IMGs? Because I imagine that PDs would have little to be concerned about US-IMGs not being able to speak fluent English.

 

[mlw03]

No. I would just try and match first. If at that point, you don't match anywhere, then you can consider a PhD program in the US. It would help your chances if you don't match the first time. I wouldn't waste the time though if you don't need to. Now, if you really want a PhD or a Masters, thats different, but if you aren't dying to get either one, then I would just try and match right into a path program after med school. . . .

I concur with this advice.

And to be clear, I have no problem with FMGs, so long as they can effectively communicate in the language where they practice. I have mentors who are FMGs. I just answered the question, and I stand by my opinion. Heck, I know an FMG program director who is a helluva pathologist, and she'd probably admit that she generally favors AMGs over FMGs, all things being equal.

 

[pathololology]

The other advantage about being an IMG/FMG is that if you have really great scores, some programs will offer you a spot outside the match so that you don't even have to worry about going through the match. This happened with several of my friends who killed their Step1. Some programs would actually rather take an FMG/IMG outside the match who is highly qualified rather than risk matching a subpar resident . . . .

 

[Cellpathology]

o

 

[coomasie blue]

The main reason is COMMUNICATION SKILLS. I didnt realize that was even doubt as the reason.

That is by far the biggest issues with FMGs. Some are so bad you cant understand over half the words they are trying to speak.


For example no one would consider a guy from Univ of London really an "FMG" in the derogatory sense of the term.

Im fairly certain PDs dont think AMGs have some higher known base IQ or something. This isnt a 'Bell Curve Hypothesis' situation folks.

If thats the case then why the problem with US IMG?

 

[2121115]

Ironic that the thread title has a spelling mistake, and we are discussing IMG's that have trouble communicating.

 

[immunopath]

I did make a mistake in the title. I wrote the post from my iphone after morning rounds and I was in a bit of a rush. Like I said, I'm from the US, born and raised in California... No problem with communication here.

 

[yaah]

If thats the case then why the problem with US IMG?

Because the supposition is that if they were truly a good talent and worthy they would have gone to med school in the US. The supposition is that if they are a US citizen and an IMG that they failed to get into med school in the US. And this is true in most cases, but not all of course.

 

[yaah]

Hello everyone, this is actually my first post on sdn. I am a 27 year old med student currently in my 4th year (med shook here is 6 years) of med school in South America. I have heard a lot of snobby/ignorant comments regarding the notion that IMG's are subpar to he US counterpart students. Quite frankly, I must strongly disagree, maybe we are subpar in the eyes of some residency directors and other future US trained colegues (wich obviously matters a great deal) but I have to express how proud I am to be able to work and study in a different geographical area. First off, I have wanted to be a pathologist for many years now and I have no doubt in my mind that the range of pathology I have been exposed to here is something a US doctor would envy or probably never see during med school and even have difficulties diagnosing. In my short time here (4 years of school) I have seen bread and butter medicine as well as numerous cases of Chagas' disease, dengue fever, malaria, leishmaniasis and other parasitic infections, yellow fever, and even about 5 cases of leprosy. Also with less restrictions here in South America regarding how much interaction student doctors have with patients, I feel we have a huge advantage over our US trained counterparts, does anyone else feel this way? ÔI was wondering if this clinical exposure during my schooling here could be viewed as a positive asset when it comes to interviews for path residency in a few years ( obviously with good scores, publications, etc.)

It's interesting, you can see it go both ways. I have seen a lot of IMGs who think they are somehow MORE entitled than US grads to get residency spots. A major problem for IMGs is that, in general, US medical grads are quite intelligent, motivated, and have excellent qualifications. It isn't enough for IMGs to say they "have a passion" or whatever, because most of the US grads do as well. You are not necessarily saying this, but part of your post comes off as you feeling like you "deserve" a spot more than someone else. But don't forget that most US grads are working just as hard. And while your clinical experiences may give you some advantages that doesn't outweigh related advantages that US grads have. No one is going to go out of their way to want you in their program just because you have seen a few rare diseases.

The problem is that everyone stereotypes. IMGs who feel put-upon and marginalized will notice the poor-performing US Grads and judge US grads on this basis as poorly-prepared and unmotivated. US grads who resent IMGs for whatever reason will stereotype based on the poorly-performing IMG they know and/or the one who can't communicate well or has difficulty adapting to the culture.

The bad news for IMGs is that residency application is something of a crapshoot. PDs don't have much to go on so they have to use their experience and the "paper worth" of each applicant, which includes their scores, their qualifications, experience, research, etc. This can be easier to assess in US grads because there is a basis for comparison. For IMGs it is difficult - how do they know that your Colombian school is excellent and you are motivated, etc? So you have to do extra to prove yourself.

The good news is though that once starting training everyone essentially becomes equal and can sink or swim on their own. Biases are much less relevant at that point because they don't really provide any useful information. So in my residency program, we had high-performing IMGs and low-performing IMGs. Same with US grads.

Overall I suspect you will do fine. Your US background and communication will allay lots of fears that some PDs might have based on reviewing your resume, and that will get you in the door.

 

[LADoc00]

I did make a mistake in the title. I wrote the post from my iphone after morning rounds and I was in a bit of a rush. Like I said, I'm from the US, born and raised in California... No problem with communication here.

Ok then you lost me. You were born and raised in Cali, cool. Then you traveled to South America, presumably to go to school and eventually med school etc. What's the issue exactly??

Just stay down there and get some cush gig in Chile or something.

Why come here and rant that US programs dont give you any respect, comes off as just butthurt.

In conclusion: are you trying to convince SDN posters via the internet who likely have no say whatsoever in you getting into any training program? I dont see the point in that, but the internet is free space and you are entitled to post up. I just feel dumb for responding...

 

[immunopath]

Yeah ... That maybe true .. Either way we receive great education at a fraction of the cost and still en up in decent/good residencies back home (which is ultimately what matters)
... So the way I see it, it's not that bad of a deal at all.

 

[immunopath]

I'm not trying to say us medical grads are better than IMG's or vice versa. I believe there are many good and bad schools anywhere you go, including the USA and Colombia. My other option would be to stay here in Colombia, the pay is relatively good (about 11k a month for a radiologist) with a lower cost i living, way better social life and better women lol. However, my family and my life are back home (USA) so I think I have no option but to go back.

 

[rollwithit]

One caveat to the communication point raised. This does not simply mean being able to speak without a thick accent and choosing the correct words. Conveying thoughts in an easily understood and concise manner, being amiable, and displaying a high level of ability to document and write well are all part of the communication game...among many other things.

FMGs have the added hurdle of mastering a new language and cultural differences, but once they are past that, there is nothing that inherently sets them back compared to AMGs. I would caution AMGs who work with many foreign-born colleagues not to assume they are better communicators simply because of accent observations. You could have the speaking voice of Morgan Freeman and still manage to be a poor communicator if you do not know what to say and how/when to say it.

Also, some folks are naturally excellent communicators. If you are not one of those people, that does not mean you can not improve to become one. Competency goes unnoticed if you can not convey your thoughts. Your career ceiling will rise if you acknowledge your faults and take measures to improve...

 

[pathololology]

One caveat to the communication point raised. This does not simply mean being able to speak without a thick accent and choosing the correct words. Conveying thoughts in an easily understood and concise manner, being amiable, and displaying a high level of ability to document and write well are all part of the communication game...among many other things.

FMGs have the added hurdle of mastering a new language and cultural differences, but once they are past that, there is nothing that inherently sets them back compared to AMGs. I would caution AMGs who work with many foreign-born colleagues not to assume they are better communicators simply because of accent observations. You could have the speaking voice of Morgan Freeman and still manage to be a poor communicator if you do not know what to say and how/when to say it.

Also, some folks are naturally excellent communicators. If you are not one of those people, that does not mean you can not improve to become one. Competency goes unnoticed if you can not convey your thoughts. Your career ceiling will rise if you acknowledge your faults and take measures to improve...

Before rollwithit gets attacked . . . the question came from an American-born IMG, so I don't think communication necessarily applies here, but we are all in agreement about IMG/FMGs who have a tough time with the language . . .

 

[rollwithit]

Before rollwithit gets attacked . . . the question came from an American-born IMG, so I don't think communication necessarily applies here, but we are all in agreement about IMG/FMGs who have a tough time with the language . . .

I was making a general response to a general point raised. I knew the OP is American-born. I'm big on the importance in communication in a professional environment. I just find it annoying when folks assume communication is poor only because "foreigners talk funny". There are plenty of foreign-born pathologists who have no chance in the U.S.A. because of there limited grasp on the language and there are plenty of American-born pathologists who have no chance in the U.S.A. because they are extreme introverts, rude, or can't type a memo, report, or email without looking like a 10th grader put it together.

My point was that you must be careful not to get a false sense of security in your communication skills simply because your pronunciation is better your foreign colleagues.

 

[LoaLoa]

. . . plenty of foreign-born pathologists who have no chance in the U.S.A. because of there limited grasp on the language

*their

 

[rollwithit]

*their

Damn it, English.

 

[LADoc00]

I'm not trying to say us medical grads are better than IMG's or vice versa. I believe there are many good and bad schools anywhere you go, including the USA and Colombia. My other option would be to stay here in Colombia, the pay is relatively good (about 11k a month for a radiologist) with a lower cost i living, way better social life and better women lol. However, my family and my life are back home (USA) so I think I have no option but to go back.

I would never leave Colombia for the US if I was you...at 11K USD per month or 132 per year you would be the Clase Alta, would live in a great neighborhood and have some rocking hot Colombian wife.

Here you will be Clase Media, likely live near an urban slum with none of the Privilegio of the Aristocracia and marry an unattentive and unattractive woman who will leave you and take 1/2 your pitiful gains.

Just sayin.

 

[gbwillner]

Not to threadjack back on topic, but the OP should really reconsider a career in pathology, specifically anatomic pathology (which is a majority of all the people on this board) if they want to work on or study infectious disease. There is almost no overlap the way things are done here.

My advice would be to pursue either internal medicine with a fellowship in infectious disease, or clinical pathology (where you'd be one of only a handful of qualified applicants), or a PhD in ID and then a clinical microbiology fellowship (where you'd then serve as director of a clinical lab and have lots of opportunities for research).

 

[yaah]

I would never leave Colombia for the US if I was you...at 11K USD per month or 132 per year you would be the Clase Alta, would live in a great neighborhood and have some rocking hot Colombian wife.

Here you will be Clase Media, likely live near an urban slum with none of the Privilegio of the Aristocracia and marry an unattentive and unattractive woman who will leave you and take 1/2 your pitiful gains.

Just sayin.

I like that.

Except for the fact that $132k per year is in the top 3% of US Income distribution. But then again everyone in america thinks they are middle class even if they make 7 figures.

 

[LADoc00]

I like that.

Except for the fact that $132k per year is in the top 3% of US Income distribution. But then again everyone in america thinks they are middle class even if they make 7 figures.

what do you think that would make you in Colombia then?

http://colombiareports.co/colombias-average-salary-lower-than-global-average/

132,000 Gringo Bucks would literally make you a Vizconde in Colombia.

People are too wrapped up in the fictional narrative that is "living in America" and I would hope the OP realizes this before its too late.

 

[twentyone]

I would never leave Colombia for the US if I was you...at 11K USD per month or 132 per year you would be the Clase Alta, would live in a great neighborhood and have some rocking hot Colombian wife.

Here you will be Clase Media, likely live near an urban slum with none of the Privilegio of the Aristocracia and marry an unattentive and unattractive woman who will leave you and take 1/2 your pitiful gains.

Just sayin.

LAD I hope you don't mind, but the next big life problem I have, I'm coming straight to you. Seriously. No BS.