Psych and OMM

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rgerwin

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I love psych, but I also love OMM. However, as psychiatrists are usually encouraged to touch their patients, I'm not sure how to have both in my life. I didn't know if any other DO psych people experienced and solved this problem. Thoughts?
 
As a psych resident who's really, really into musculosketal medicine I haven't figured that one out either but I'd like to. It's hard for me since i'm really into the psych of major injuries and physical ailments.

Only thing I've figured out so far is maybe doing a pain fellowship and restricting my pain work to only part of the time, and the rest of the time being a plain old shrink. Since I plan to be academic, I don't think working out needing office/fluoro suite time from two different departments would be totally impossible.

I could see you fairly easily doing something like that. And you wont' even need a fellowship.

btw, do you know of any OMM for MDs classes offered?
 
I love psych, but I also love OMM. However, as psychiatrists are usually encouraged to touch their patients, I'm not sure how to have both in my life. I didn't know if any other DO psych people experienced and solved this problem. Thoughts?

combined psych and FP residency.
 
MoM call up any of the DO schools OMM department and ask them. That would be your best bet for getting in touch with people who could help you. My personal take on OMM is that it is the next step in MSK complaints after ice/rest/nsaids. Then after OMM fails, you move to botox/steroid injections. After that fails you move to surgery.

Regarding Psych and OMM I believe the only connection you will have is cranial. That is, if you believe it is real. I don't believe cranial is real. However, I do know of one physician with an autistic child who seeks out DO gurus who practice cranial, because she swears by the effects it has on her kid with soothing and being more manageable.

I believe this already a thread on this. A search might be helpful.

Otherwise, I think you will have to have two seperate clinics. One for OMM patients, one for psych patients.

Although, their could be a niche with fibromyalgia patients. We all know Rheum is doing such a great job with them...🙄
 
Thanks! I'm not sure why I never thought of an FP/Psych residency.

Agreed on the OMM advice. Good luck !
 
Otherwise, I think you will have to have two seperate clinics. One for OMM patients, one for psych patients.

Yeah, but the thing is, there is no such thing as a person with chronic pain or disability who DOESN'T have psych issues.

Which raises an interesting question if you believe, as I do, that the key to a successful and fulfilling life as a cripple is the psych side of things. Can you be both their pain doctor who manipulates, coaches, and injects as well as their pain shrink who helps them live with what can't be fixed?
 
oh and don't get me started on fibromyalgia and IBS. Both of those (well, the vast majority of patients anyway) are psych.
 
LOL! Well, Pain is a specialty that is available (in theory) for psych residents to apply to.

I wouldn't count on manipulative medicine to be of much use in a patient who is already on scheduled percs. I just don't believe psych and manual medicine are appropriate. Not because of the assumed reasons, but I believe that by the time a person has an interplay of the two issues manual medicine isn't going to correct the problem or break the cycle. You need a heavy hitter like injections.

Plus, now and days most MSK issues are from obese/overweight patients where their issue is not their knees hurting or their low back, but their huge belly. You can only optimize the structure of a mechanical wear and tear so much before you are trying to hold back the pannus tide.

However, for the IBS and Fibro patients I think a psychiatrist who is pain specialist and sleep medicine certified could make the magical cure for these patients. The trifecta of the interplay of pain, sleep, and psych. I'm amazed at how much these overlap. Behavior therapy for sleep hygiene, depression meds, pain meds. One stop shopping. Here is one place that has everything but the pain component: www.nbsohio.com
 
LOL! Well, Pain is a specialty that is available (in theory) for psych residents to apply to.

I wouldn't count on manipulative medicine to be of much use in a patient who is already on scheduled percs. I just don't believe psych and manual medicine are appropriate. Not because of the assumed reasons, but I believe that by the time a person has an interplay of the two issues manual medicine isn't going to correct the problem or break the cycle. You need a heavy hitter like injections.

Plus, now and days most MSK issues are from obese/overweight patients where their issue is not their knees hurting or their low back, but their huge belly. You can only optimize the structure of a mechanical wear and tear so much before you are trying to hold back the pannus tide.

LOL pannus tide. I love that!

But the idea that psych and manual medicine aren't appropriate for someone on scheduled percs is kinda shortsighted.

My interest in pain and disability grew because I realized how easily we write people off, even though often enough its out of compassion.

Now, with the caveat that some people are simply neurologically predisposed to feel more pain than others with the identical injury, at bottom pain is a subjective experience. And evolutionarily speaking, pain is a behavioral issue. The whole point of pain is to change your behavior.

Staying within the evolutionary realm for a minute, bodies for the most part did not evolve to cope well with chronic injury. Predators prey on the sick and the weak. Congeners outcompete the sick and the weak. An injury that significally compromises one's physical abilities is very likely to kill them before they recover.

Survivers of major traumatic injury and chronic MSK issues within the animal kingdom are thus largely restricted to certain social animals: most prominently elephants,social carnivores, and certain primate groups. Because only inthese cooperative group structures can one be supported long enough to heal, or even less likely, be tolerated and supported despite lifelong debility.

We can see that in how easily various injuries heal based on their short-term survivability in a relatively unsupported environment. Contusions are easy. Strains and sprains less so. Partial muscle tears do heal, badly. As do bones. But a spinal cord injury? perhaps they heal so badly because there's never been an evolutionary advantage to being able to heal well in that domain. You're likely to die long before a spinal cord could ever hope to heal from malnutrition or depredation.

Now with that context in mind apply it to the chronic pain patient. An antalgic limp or restricted range of motion is great for an acute and recoverable injury. It allows the affected part of the body time to heal. And two or three weeks of limping won't destroy the rest of your body.

Take a look at the hip joint of someone with a chronic limp 5 or 10 years down the road...doesn't work out so great in that chronic environment.

Not wanting to be in pain is great in an acute setting. How does it work in the long term. When you have pain. When you are going to be in pain. And it will never get better. Should your whole life revolve around the pain, or should you start to look past it?

I'm starting to get way off topic, but I think it's easy to see how antalgia...the driving force in behavior in acute injury across the animal kingdom...while it works in the short term is a bad idea in the long term.

The antalgic mind is the reason people don't fling themselves into physical therapy with gusto. Because it hurts. Oh my god it hurts. Most able bodied people coudln't keep up with my rehab regimen without trying to stab themselves in the eye with a red-hot fork. It's the reason they find their lives growing ever more restricted. Because doing things hurts. It hurts a lot.

It's the reason after their knee injury they limp. Because it hurts less. And then as the limp destroys their hip, they limp even more. And then their posture goes. And then their back starts to go. So their posture worsens. And pretty soon it's all over but the disability payment.

And can you imagine the psychological horror of living a life in which the things that give you pleasure hurt you? A jackass of a neurologist once stated at a national conference that he believed that sympathetically-mediated pain was a psych issue since so many of them have psychological comorbidities (vast majority have depression or anxiety. More than a quarter will attempt suicide. etc). I have an anecdote I like to tell about that. A 16 year old kid who'd had a sympathetically-mediated pain syndrome was on his first date. He's nervous as heck and the girl next to him is unaccountably beautiful. Something which confuses the heck out of him. For whatever reason she's actually into him. As she leans against him, he says what the hell and puts his damaged arm around her. In the seconds and minutes leading up to that agonizing decision, his arm is absolutely on fire. He's jittering like a meth addict in need of a fix but he goes for it anyway. And he's in ungodly pain the whole movie, driving back, walking her up to her door, and driving home. Instead of the cold shower you'd think he needed, he went for a hot bath instead and spent most of the night massaging...his arm. Any time he's excited, or afraid, or aroused in any sort of way, his ever constant pain is going to flare up like the fourth of july. Imagine what that'll do a person and tell me it's not a psych issue.

Earlier this year I worked with a chronic pain patient to get off his narcotics (he was on 10mg methadone QID) and he's never been happier. I myself am someone with severe chronic pain. I've rattled off a list of the physical issues on here before, and it's extensive. I get told that I shouldn't be able to do what I do. Over and over again. Like a broken record. Part of its genetics. I would bet that i'm homozygous for every freaking gene that influences resilience that we could ever find. But a part of it is psych as well. The most important part. I belong to an extremely psych-oriented faith which has helped me challenge the various stupidities that have cropped up over the years.
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Pain is a subjective experience. More importantly, it's a pervasive experience. Psych can help with the experience of pain. It can help with the cognitive-behavioral distortions of the antalgic mindset. It can help with motivation in rehab. It can help with the interpersonal and psychodynamic issues that WILL crop up. I often say that there is no such thing as a person in chronic pain without psych issues. And I mean that.
 
But the idea that psych and manual medicine aren't appropriate for someone on scheduled percs is kinda shortsighted.

I Disagree: Obese DJD related patients. "I have bad knees" "My back always hurts" The shear mechanical force being distributed is no match for psych, manual medicine, and even at times joint replacements. It's like alzheimers treatment, you are only slowing progression.

I agree: Fibromyalgia, your personal trials, motor vehicle accidents, occipital neuralgia/stress headache patients
 
I Disagree: Obese DJD related patients. "I have bad knees" "My back always hurts" The shear mechanical force being distributed is no match for psych, manual medicine, and even at times joint replacements. It's like alzheimers treatment, you are only slowing progression.

I agree: Fibromyalgia, your personal trials, motor vehicle accidents, occipital neuralgia/stress headache patients

and couldn't a psychiatrist help a fatty think straight?
 
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