Psych Interview games?

[Psych2014]

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I'm very sorry if there's a better forum for this, but....

Can anyone who's been on psych selection comittee's coment if "games" (confusing, awkweird, or sense-less questions and behaviours) are played with applicants?

Examples would be looking all over the room when I am speaking to them, or PD walking out in the middle of the IV 5 times to talk with residents, or residents who take you to lunch and basically ignore you, or asking the same exact question 2 times in a row, or asking if you have any questions, then whey you ask them, they ignore it and say something else....??

Maybe it's me, or I'm sleep deprived, or hyper analyzing and they are just being human?

I'd completely understand if they chose to do that. Appreciate any ideas. Thanks.

 

[peppy]

they are just being human?

That's what I would vote for.
The residents probably knew there would be free food (probably better than what the cafeteria offers) and figured they might as well stop by for it even though they aren't particularly interested in talking to applicants or selling the program. The PD probably has a lot of other things on his mind and didn't think about how it would look to you to keep interrupting the interview. The people who didn't answer your question are probably just scatterbrained or were not paying attention. It happens.

(During med school interviews, one of my interviewers interrupted our interview to take a phone call from his wife...I am almost certain that it was not meant to be a test, just "Hey I want to talk to my wife")

 

[Sneezing]

This is just unprofessionalism. One day when you're in their shoes, have the decency to be professional. Can't change 'em. Not worth fighting, so make the change yourself.

 

[whopper]

Games are played. I knew one PD that for example would tell applicants that he thought their personal statements were garbage. When you hear it from one person, whatever. When you hear it from five people, and those five people never talked to each other ever, and they're all telling a very similar story that the PD told them how their PD was garbage, even adding insults to it, e.g. "I'm going to use your statement to line my birdcage"--that meets a level where even a journalist could report it happening in the newspaper. I believe they have to have three independence sources stating an incident occurred before they could report it.

However it appears to me that the majority of applicants get for the most part fair and hospitable interviews, and on rare occasions hostile interviews. I've gone through a few hostile ones myself but they were the exception, not the norm.

In the program I mentioned (where that person is no longer the PD, he went onto other things), that PD appeared to have a disdain for the level of most psychiatrists and medstudents entering the profession. He graduated from a highly respected program and appeared to feel that anyone short of high up researchers were worthless. Heard it from his own mouth, and from the mouths of several others.

My own PD (who was a top scoring medstudent, resident and rated one of the state's best doctors) used to have this guy as his advisor while he was in medschool, and the stories my PD told me about this guy--ouch. Let's just say elitist would fit this guy very well.

 

[Psych2014]

I appreciate the responses. I didn't explain that all of this went on at one program, all in one day. I think it was the prevailing attitude. I don't expect to be the belle of the ball, just common respect, after spending a lot of money to come see them. My gratitude for being invited gradually degenerated into contempt for being toyed with. And the residents were scheduled to take us out, not stoping by. Odd thing is there were 2 residents per interviewee, and in my case they talked to eachother most of the time, somewhat annoyed when I'd say or ask something (this is 180 degree's backwards from all my other expereinces). And yes, the PD was not paying attention, except to himself, but I've never experienced this at another of the 5 interviews I've been to. The rest were all caring and professional, which is in both our best interest. As I said to a friend, I'm glad I've seen all ends of the spectrum, it helps to be more objective and thankful for the good ones.

I think psychiatrists will use their expertise, not to torture an applicant, but to cause some mild discomfort or awkwardness, or a void space in the encounter, to test the applicants flexibility and maturity. Do you agree?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think psychiatrists will use their expertise, not to torture an applicant, but to cause some mild discomfort or awkwardness, or a void space in the encounter, to test the applicants flexibility and maturity. Do you agree?

Maybe, but if so, it's a sign of a program I don't want to be at. Also, I wouldn't assume mind tricks are happening instead of general disorganization or actual true awkwardness on the part of the interviewer. If you're reading any mind game stuff into it, you're probably thinking too much.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I appreciate the responses. I didn't explain that all of this went on at one program, all in one day. I think it was the prevailing attitude. I don't expect to be the belle of the ball, just common respect, after spending a lot of money to come see them. My gratitude for being invited gradually degenerated into contempt for being toyed with. And the residents were scheduled to take us out, not stoping by. Odd thing is there were 2 residents per interviewee, and in my case they talked to eachother most of the time, somewhat annoyed when I'd say or ask something (this is 180 degree's backwards from all my other expereinces). And yes, the PD was not paying attention, except to himself, but I've never experienced this at another of the 5 interviews I've been to. The rest were all caring and professional, which is in both our best interest. As I said to a friend, I'm glad I've seen all ends of the spectrum, it helps to be more objective and thankful for the good ones.

I think psychiatrists will use their expertise, not to torture an applicant, but to cause some mild discomfort or awkwardness, or a void space in the encounter, to test the applicants flexibility and maturity. Do you agree?

I think your experience reflects disorganization on the part of the program, distraction on the part of the PD, and immaturity and lack of professionalism in the residents.

But to assume intentional "mind games" just because it's psychiatry...no.

For my part, I'm taking 20 minutes out of the peak hour of a busy morning to interview an applicant. I want to find out if they really want to be part of our program and if we really want them in that time. I might get paged in that time, but if it's a text saying Mrs. Johnson needs a colace order, I set it aside. I don't have time to try to make the applicant uncomfortable and test how they react. If there are places that routinely do this with applicants, then no wonder everyone else in medicine thinks we're nuts. (Though I've heard crazier stuff from surgery and OBGYN programs...)

 

[whopper]

aybe, but if so, it's a sign of a program I don't want to be at

Agree. If they don't present themselves as well, it's a sign not to go there. So long as you have several other options, put them to the bottom of the MATCH list or don't even consider them.

Just for your entertainment here's two stories I had of my interviews for a forensics program.

The program wanted me there for 2 days (which meant I had a get a hotel room for 3 days), wanted me to rent a car out of pocket and drive to several locations that were hours away from each other. The first interview-the guy wasn't even there. He was on vacation, and I spent 2 hrs driving to that locations. The 2nd interview another 2 hr drive away, I showed up to the wrong place because the program told me to go to the wrong place (there were 2 hospitals by the same exact name--> they told me to go to the wrong one). The third interview I showed up late because they told me to park in a parking garage, an attendant would take my car and it was right next to the place where I needed to interview. The parking attendant refused to allow me to park there and I spent 45 minutes trying to find a place to park.

So I get to the 3rd guy late, and he refused to talk to me. All the while he's in his office shooting paper balls into the basket.

The 4th guy literally told me he thought the program was bad, and recommended I not attend the program. He told me they don't give fellows time off for the AAPL convention which pretty much almost all the programs do.

Then the PD seemed upset with me because he's got the idea that I missed so many interviews due to my own disorganization.

Well lo and behold I'm at the AAPL convention this year and it turned out that every single fellow I met who interviewed at the program had almost the same story happen to them. In fact the same 4th guy who told me that the program was terrible told it to everyone who interviewed there. What sparked the conversation was that guy walked by me, and I said, "hey that's Dr. X. He interviewed me." The the other fellow said "yeah me too, he told me his program was terrible."

IMHO my experience there was not due to playing games, but because the program itself was disorganized.

At another program, another guy & I were interviewing. That guy was a very nice guy and we didn't have any competitive rivalry. The PD apparently favored the guy over me, and every time he introduced us he said "this is Dr. X, he wrote a paper on recidivism of sexual offenders using a public data base. I'm very impressed." Then he paused for a few moments and mentioned me in a drab tone. He didn't mention any of my accomplishments (VP of the NJPA, Chief Resident, won a state-wide research award etc). It was so apparent that even people in the department appeared to look at the guy as if something was wrong with him.

He interviewed the other guy first. Then he had me wait for him while he did something (where I waited for over 1 hr), then he interviewed me.

I thought perhaps my own ego may have biased my perception of things going on because the PD's behavior appeared to be so blatantly rude. I talked to my PD about it (and my PD knew that guy for years) and he said "No it was not your imagination. I know that guy and he's a prick." He also mentioned things that at least to me appeared to be objective ways to look at it. "You've interviewed dozens of candidates. Would you ever make a candidate wait in a room for over an hour with nothing to do while you made photocopies?"

From the input my PD gave me, it strongly hinted to me that this was not disorganization but intended and volitional "game playing."

I nixed both those programs from my list. Besides both those programs despite the names weren't good forensics programs. U. Mass and Case Western have the best reps within the field--for the people who actually know which programs truly are the best yet they don't have a brand name to those outside the field.

But to assume intentional "mind games" just because it's psychiatry...no.

Disagree.....kinda. You got to take into account there's a high degree of variability between programs and there's hundreds of programs. Most programs are smart enough to know that if they invite someone for an interview, it's a waste of time on everyone's part to not show that person some respect.

However malignant programs--programs that have an attitude that they can treat people any way they want have some attendings that are malignant--and create that atmosphere. I think they're rare--on the order of less than 5% of interviewers, but they do exist. Those same programs can get away with it if there's something about that program that just makes people have to go there (e.g. the name attracts people even though the program is malignant, or the program is a haven for those that couldn't go anywhere else for residency).

Another factor to consider is that several candidates are extremely nervous since their last frame of reference was applying into medical school where the process is far more grueling. While this could make several applicants over-think and imagine innocent incidents were part of a preplanned game, it IMHO would also make several attendings feel they could have some evil fun with some of the applicants--by getting amused or entertained by making them feel uncomfortable, or believe that the discomfort could be used as a test of character on the candidate.

If a specific person told me they thought the attending was playing games, I'd take it with a grain of salt. An interview can be a nervous situation for the candidate, and they may have imagined some of the occurrences as game playing. If I heard it from multiple people that the same things happened, then I'd start to believe it.

For most residents--they've interviewed at the same places in a region. When by your first year you start exchanging your interview stories, and it turned out that almost everyone in your incoming class interviewed at several of the same programs, and it turned out that the same exact attending did the same exact thing that was way overboard "I'm going to line my birdcage with your personal statement, what to you think about that?" that strongly indicates the person intentionally did it to the candidate.

 

[Psych2014]

Very interesting and thoughtful replies. I appreciate it. My conclusion has been that they simply displayed their character qualaties, as a community. There are subtle statements I picked up during the day that were consistent with this arrogant, careless attitude that I picked up from most residents.

FORGOT TO SAY... I interviewed with residents only, plus distracted, disrespectful Program Chair. Never had that before. I think this particular program is resident driven, and learning is "self directed", that's the problem.

Whopper, thanks for those stories, they lend breadth to the experience.

Thank you OldPsychDoc for your point of view. Interesting thing, the other PD's I interviewed with must have had people covering for them, and their pager, which would make sense to me, since you are trying to absorb who this person is your going to be training for 4 years or more.

Conclusion: games are played, but not for any productive purpose, only an extension of the person's character to begin with. Thank God for the clear illustration of what the program's like. Wow, it sure is different in person than on paper, or on website, or scutworsk, Wow.

 

[CaMD]

Psych 2014,

Consider yourself lucky that the program showed its true colors. Now you know that this is an unprofessional/disrespectful program and you can cross it off your ranklist!

 

[Psych2014]

😱->😡-> (yep) -> 👎 ->😛 ->

Thanks.