Psych NP "settles" the debate

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hopefulscribe2

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Hello there,

I am wondering how this is allowed where NPs claim themselves as "Dr" and also claim NPs provide better care than doctors. Funny enough, she now works as a research designer at Microsoft, not even in the medical field anymore...

 
All I ever say is show me the evidence that it's true.
 
Sorry for the nihilism, but you can (and she did) provide evidence for any side of any argument you want to make about efficacy, patient satisfaction, cost, etc. The good news is, again, there remains plenty of business for everyone and will be for the rest of our and our current trainee's lives. We are all in good positions and should be celebrating that instead of doing the Chicken Little thing non-stop.
 
Calling yourself a doctor or not depends upon graduating from an accredited doctoral program and nothing else. If the public thinks being a doctor means a hill of beans or not is up to the public. There will always be examples of embarrassing doctors, but people who use the moniker in an effort to extend their gravitas are pathetic and despicable.
 
Hello there,

I am wondering how this is allowed where NPs claim themselves as "Dr" and also claim NPs provide better care than doctors. Funny enough, she now works as a research designer at Microsoft, not even in the medical field anymore...

If they repeat it enough maybe someday they'll actually believe it. Having done this for a bit, I would generally have my family seen by physicians for all but the most minor of concerns
 
OP - Are you scouring people's personal websites for opinions you disagree with?

This person is great with SEO. I’ve randomly stumbled on her website multiple times over the last few years. Assuming OP stumbled across it the same way.
 
Most of us work around people who are all doctors. It tests our imagination to think that someone would feel the title is worth claiming to be a doctor who isn't qualified. It might seem special to some, but not to us. It is not a big deal. If you get into ponds where being an MD is a dime a dozen, the honor isn't clear to anyone. "Ya Ya... are you any good at being a doctor".
 
I've seen good NPs, some better in-fact than physicians but these NPs were few and far between. The bottom line is unless you were trained by a very good physician you likely will not be a good NP or physician, and NPs get very very little training compared to doctors in residency.

IMHO these states allowing NPs to practice without physician oversight-I'm against unless the nurse had physician oversight for literally the equivalent of years just like residents require years of training. Some will then argue then those nurses are on the same par as physicians. No. The testing requirements are still much more strict for physicians and I'm only talking oversight in a job that most definitely is no where near as structured, comprehensive and as intense as residency. An NP working 40 hours a week with physician supervision for 5 years will still not likely achieve the type of training residency provides in 1 year. (Weekly grand rounds, access to research, having to present journal articles, seeing patients across several modalities such as ICU, ER, inpatient outpatient, very serious and serious cases such as a patient with a failed suicide attempt who blew up half his face with a shotgun).

IMHO at least 5 years physician oversight and they can be independent, but still only mid-level provider.

What does the research say?​

Research examining nurse practitioner effectiveness began in 1986 when the United States Office of Technology Assessment compared the practice patterns of nurse practitioners with physicians. This study concluded that nurse practitioners performed as well as physicians in all areas of primary care delivery and patient outcomes.

OK any study from 1986 can pretty much be punted. Holy crap that's almost 40 years ago. WTF? Ataris were still hot items back them. The fact that she's bringing up a 1986 study itself adds some holes to her presentation.

Since this groundbreaking research, study after study has reached similar conclusions. A 2011systematic review of all nurse practitioner effectiveness research found that nurse practitioners provide effective, high-quality care with outcomes similar or superior to physicians. This quantitative study synthesized the findings of all research conducted on this topic for 18 years. The authors of the study included both nurse practitioners and physicians.

I checked out the above link but my Google Chrome says the following

This site can’t provide a secure connection​

www.nursingeconomics.net uses an unsupported protocol.


ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH

I'm not going to such a website. Anyone else have this data care to present it?
 
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My data is only experiential and consists of exactly what you say. The well trained NPs are well trained, but most are not.
 
My data is only experiential and consists of exactly what you say. The well trained NPs are well trained, but most are not.
Add to this the best NPs I've seen who are very good know their limits and know when to throw in the towel and say an MD is needed, and when this happens they gladly do so. "Thank God" is often times their reply. E.g. Clozapine patient, patient who is frequently severe and dangerous, etc.
 
Unfortunately, psychiatrist have already failed the "real doctor" test according to many of our patients. I'm not optimistic that there is an easy way to change this perception in the general population. Like all fields of medicine, we have awesome role models and some psychiatrist that embarrass us. Such is life.
 
Unfortunately, psychiatrist have already failed the "real doctor" test according to many of our patients. I'm not optimistic that there is an easy way to change this perception in the general population. Like all fields of medicine, we have awesome role models and some psychiatrist that embarrass us. Such is life.
Like, how? I never encounter this. I'm sure someone can find a grandparent who doesn't think psychiatry is real but I almost wish my patients thought less of me then they do and had lower expectations. But they all call me doctor and I can't think of a single encounter that has suggested the patient think I'm not a real doctor.
 
Like, how? I never encounter this. I'm sure someone can find a grandparent who doesn't think psychiatry is real but I almost wish my patients thought less of me then they do and had lower expectations. But they all call me doctor and I can't think of a single encounter that has suggested the patient think I'm not a real doctor.
"My old psychiatrist was awful! They wouldn't prescribe me the meds that work and kept switching my meds to ones that just made things worse and wouldn't listen to me! Now I see an NP and they're great. They actually listen and give me the meds I NEED!" *Insert further rambling about the psychiatrist doing therapy and patient saying I just talked the whole time and they would make a comment or ask questions here and there.*
 
"My old psychiatrist was awful! They wouldn't prescribe me the meds that work and kept switching my meds to ones that just made things worse and wouldn't listen to me! Now I see an NP and they're great. They actually listen and give me the meds I NEED!" *Insert further rambling about the psychiatrist doing therapy and patient saying I just talked the whole time and they would make a comment or ask questions here and there.*
But what does that have to do with being a real doctor or not?
 
"My old psychiatrist was awful! They wouldn't prescribe me the meds that work and kept switching my meds to ones that just made things worse and wouldn't listen to me! Now I see an NP and they're great. They actually listen and give me the meds I NEED!" *Insert further rambling about the psychiatrist doing therapy and patient saying I just talked the whole time and they would make a comment or ask questions here and there.*
"What works for me is Adderall and Xanax. If you don't give me what I need, I'll Yelp you something fierce."
 
Have to kind of side with @SmallBird on this. I am obviously not a physician and I rarely get the “not a real doctor” thing. I don’t think I’ve run into a patient ever saying that about a psychiatrist. What I see more often are patients calling NPs doctors and what I actually see most often are patients mixing up psychologists and psychiatrists. I typically chastise them mercilessly when they do.
 
Nothing, but then they go on to talk about how real doctors help people and we clearly don’t. I’m surprised you’ve never encountered this before.
Not a big disagreement - I agree that there is all of that affect and entitlement but I've just not had it framed as a reflection of whether or not I'm a real doctor. Just more generic irritation.
 
Here's how to get very high marks.

Young male is depressed. I snap my fingers, and 3 nude supermodels come in and start dancing in front of him. I then press a button, put out a disco ball, the tune of I'm too Sexy plays and a supermodel presents him with a tray of cocaine and Heroin.

Doc:"Cocaine zips you up, and the Heroin will keep it mellow at the same time."

Patient: "Doc you are awesome. You're the best doc ever!"

Doc: "It's not over yet."
Another nude supermodel comes in with a silver platter of cash.

Doc: "It's hundred dollar bills. Take as many as you want!"
Doc proceeds to dance with the supermodels.

Patient "You're awesome!"

Doc: "It's not over yet!"

Patient: "What next?"

Doc: "Every single person that ever pissed you off? We got a hit man to make their lives hell."

Patient: "You're awesome!"

Point is high marks doesn't mean good doctor. How was the study measured?
 
Here's how to get very high marks.

Young male is depressed. I snap my fingers, and 3 nude supermodels come in and start dancing in front of him. I then press a button, put out a disco ball, the tune of I'm too Sexy plays and a supermodel presents him with a tray of cocaine and Heroin.

Doc:"Cocaine zips you up, and the Heroin will keep it mellow at the same time."

Patient: "Doc you are awesome. You're the best doc ever!"

Doc: "It's not over yet."
Another nude supermodel comes in with a silver platter of cash.

Doc: "It's hundred dollar bills. Take as many as you want!"
Doc proceeds to dance with the supermodels.

Patient "You're awesome!"

Doc: "It's not over yet!"

Patient: "What next?"

Doc: "Every single person that ever pissed you off? We got a hit man to make their lives hell."

Patient: "You're awesome!"

Point is high marks doesn't mean good doctor. How was the study measured?
I will never forget a patient at the VA IP unit my PGY 1 year (first month of residency).

He goes "you know what's the best thing in the entire world?". Me "No??". Him "A girl sucking your **** while you take a line of blow". Little ole me was very unsure where to take that conversation next.
 
I will never forget a patient at the VA IP unit my PGY 1 year (first month of residency).

He goes "you know what's the best thing in the entire world?". Me "No??". Him "A girl sucking your **** while you take a line of blow". Little ole me was very unsure where to take that conversation next.
Nod calmly, increase Depakote dose, move to next patient
 
I will never forget a patient at the VA IP unit my PGY 1 year (first month of residency).

He goes "you know what's the best thing in the entire world?". Me "No??". Him "A girl sucking your **** while you take a line of blow". Little ole me was very unsure where to take that conversation next.
"Man, you must have slept really well after that. How's your sleep been recently?"
 
Calling yourself a doctor or not depends upon graduating from an accredited doctoral program and nothing else. If the public thinks being a doctor means a hill of beans or not is up to the public. There will always be examples of embarrassing doctors, but people who use the moniker in an effort to extend their gravitas are pathetic and despicable.

I might be a tad old fashioned with this, but to me medicine is still one of the traditional ''learned" professions. Unless there's an NP program out there that has the exact equivalency of a learned profession then any NP calling themselves a Doctor will earn nothing but derision from me.

Then again it's only been in the last few years I've managed to stop twitching every time a Doctor has introduced themselves as, "Hi, I'm first name last name, I'm a Doctor here". FFS just introduce yourself as Dr whoever, it's medical care not a date, I don't need to be on a first name basis with you, . :bang:

Don't think I've ever come across an NP in the wild though, so cant really attest to their effectiveness. I'm sure many of them are highly trained and very professional in their practice, but I will still heap scorn on those that choose to use the title of Dr.
 
My closest equivalent to an NP is a 3rd or 4th year resident. They could be good. They could be very good. The problem is with the lack of depth of clinical training they might encounter a severe case never having seen one before. A good resident will have been through the same. Eager, skilled, smart and will be able to handle tough cases with time but still green.

With residency training, most good programs will put residents in almost every situation imaginable so by the time they graduate they've seen a decent amount. IMHO even good programs won't have trained residents well enough to completely cut the cord. That's why I recommend recent graduates from residency to consider academia at least temporarily, maybe just a few years.

NPs, however, only have weeks of clinical training in a specific area. So say an NP did an office based practice for 4 years. They'll likely know how to do office based work well but if never trained would've likely been locked in a very narrow range of practice. E.g. only a small handful of antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, having hardly dealt with severe patients, not having good clinical experience to know what happens much to their patients while in inpatient or the ER etc.

I would not realistically expect any NP even within the first 5 years of their practice to even have seen 1 case of catatonia and would most definitely based on this not have been able to catch it. Even if they do suspect one, without having ever seen it before they won't have that needed experience to feel confident with what they're doing. Same goes with reading QT intervals in EKGs and correlating it with meds, Tardive Dyskinesia, Charles Bonnet Syndrome, Musical Tinnitus, e (Musical Ear Syndrome) etc.

I had a case where a psych NP made the patient's case of Musical Tinnitus significantly worse. One told the patient that she was psychotic. The other told the patient that her Musical Tinnitus was because a man was secretly implanting the music in her head under the argument, "I don't want her to feel she's psychotic so I decided to validate her psychosis" when in fact Musical Tinnitus IS NOT WHAT WE SEE IN OTHER PSYCHOSIS-if it is psychosis.

If the NP is teamed up with a great attending, is willing to learn and the attending wants to teach that NP I can see being very very very good, even exceeding most physicians but this is extremely rare. As a demographic whole (not individuals) and I've made no efforts to hide this IMHO about half the psychiatrists I see are terrible. This is based on about half of them not having what should be even reasonable IMHO expectations. E.g. I see so many psychiatrists diagnosing patients all with Bipolar Disorder no matter what they have and when asked give indefensible answers such as "that's the diagnosis where no matter what I could argue my way out of it. If they can't sleep I can say they have Bipolar. If they're depressed I can say they have Bipolar. If they're psychotic I can say they have Bipolar." I see some psychiatrists still not knowing the 4-6 week rule with antidepressant trials. (PATHETIC!) But getting to NPs I see about 15% being very good and when I say good it's usually only within the specific area they usually work in.
 
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I think NPs are generally inferior and it would be hard to not recognize why this is. That isn't my complaint about them as much as they don't know they are clinically inferior. The most dangerous NPs have no idea this is true and the best ones do have an idea and know when to ask for help, and do so.
 
If physicians as a field want to claim some sort of NP inferiority, we'd certainly have to fund some major studies because NPs have very much done the reverse dozens to hundreds of times over...
 
If physicians as a field want to claim some sort of NP inferiority, we'd certainly have to fund some major studies because NPs have very much done the reverse dozens to hundreds of times over...

Well, I hope the point of funding such outcomes studies would be to objectively assess the issue, as opposed to ensuring that it reaches a certain, predetermined outcome. We have plenty of the latter, not nearly enough of the former.
 
Doctors are clearly inferior to NPs in medical decision making. This is why there are zero NPs willing to sign off and accept liability for our decisions.
 
They are DIFFERENT skill sets. A competent mid level still doesn't possess the knowledge and experience of even a PGY2 on average.

There is literally no means of comparison.

From a theoretical view, this is not accurate. You assumption is that the knowledge base of your training is both necessary and sufficient. Here you run into two theoretical issues. Necessary and sufficient in order to achieve what end, is the first issue. The second issue is that you then have to establish that the first premise is true on both fronts in the first place, neither of which have really been done.

Presumably, the first issue of "to achieve what" is probably the easier question. As it's in the realm of "to serve the medical needs of patients in X specialty to achieve a certain level of healthcare outcomes." But, now you have to do the harder, second part.
 
Have to kind of side with @SmallBird on this. I am obviously not a physician and I rarely get the “not a real doctor” thing. I don’t think I’ve run into a patient ever saying that about a psychiatrist. What I see more often are patients calling NPs doctors and what I actually see most often are patients mixing up psychologists and psychiatrists. I typically chastise them mercilessly when they do.

Second this.
I've been practicing for a few years now and never had a single patient say or imply that I'm not a 'real doctor'. I have worked with very sick patients and better off ones.
Frankly if they say this I would immediately start suspecting some narcissistic features...

When this has come up it was with personal relatives back home, not patients.
Nowadays I get a lot of appreciation from lay people but where I'm at mental health is a big thing.
 
From a theoretical view, this is not accurate. You assumption is that the knowledge base of your training is both necessary and sufficient. Here you run into two theoretical issues. Necessary and sufficient in order to achieve what end, is the first issue. The second issue is that you then have to establish that the first premise is true on both fronts in the first place, neither of which have really been done.

Presumably, the first issue of "to achieve what" is probably the easier question. As it's in the realm of "to serve the medical needs of patients in X specialty to achieve a certain level of healthcare outcomes." But, now you have to do the harder, second part.
Have you worked with NPs before? It's actually pretty easy to tell the quality of care based off how the patient is diagnosed and treated. There has been egregious examples of treatment regimens that patients have been placed on that I can name off my head. I legit crap you not when I saw a patient was placed on a SSRI, TCA, and a MOAI all at once by a NP 😱
 
Have you worked with NPs before? It's actually pretty easy to tell the quality of care based off how the patient is diagnosed and treated. There has been egregious examples of treatment regimens that patients have been placed on that I can name off my head. I legit crap you not when I saw a patient was placed on a SSRI, TCA, and a MOAI all at once by a NP 😱
I have, extensively, but that's irrelevant to the notion of conducting a proper research study.
 
"patient said they haven't slept before, get depressed sometimes, can't focus, gets anxious, and hears voices - schizoaffective bipolar type, will start 20 of olanzapine Prozac and klonopin"

Literally in someone's note.
 
"patient said they haven't slept before, get depressed sometimes, can't focus, gets anxious, and hears voices - schizoaffective bipolar type, will start 20 of olanzapine Prozac and klonopin"

Literally in someone's note.

yes i love when I hear "i cant sleep", and they come in with this massive thing of soda from the gas station. I used to have a NP who was very bad about polypharm/overprescribing. Some of these providers practice "reactionary medicine". They hear a symptom and try to medicate the hell out of the symptom without understanding more about it.
 
yes i love when I hear "i cant sleep", and they come in with this massive thing of soda from the gas station. I used to have a NP who was very bad about polypharm/overprescribing. Some of these providers practice "reactionary medicine". They hear a symptom and try to medicate the hell out of the symptom without understanding more about it.

In the VA it was usually like this. "I wake up a lot during the night and can't get back to sleep."

"What do you do when you wake up in the middle of the night?"

"I usually have a couple cups of coffee and a few cigarettes.

"..."
 
yes i love when I hear "i cant sleep", and they come in with this massive thing of soda from the gas station. I used to have a NP who was very bad about polypharm/overprescribing. Some of these providers practice "reactionary medicine". They hear a symptom and try to medicate the hell out of the symptom without understanding more about it.
One of the best things I learned in medical school, residency, and fellowship is how to discern symptoms/illness from not, with the most important skill I learned being when to say no. It's served me well treating some worried well/non-pathologically anxious people.
 
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I think we lose track of what being a PMHNP really means.

In a PMHNP (psych trained NP) program, they do a 6 month adult and 6 month child training year to get certified as a PMHNP. This is typically a part-time training gig, so they work a job while they get their training.

A fresh PMHNP has had at most ~1000 hours of psych training by the time they graduate. Even a psych intern at the end of the year has roughly double the amount of clinical exposure in raw hours compared to an NP (avg 2.2-2.5k clinical hours yr 1). I know as at the end of my PGY2 year, I had around 5700 hours of clinical work under my belt. In overnight work alone (by the end of pgy2) I covered almost the same amount of clinical work that a PMHNP completes in their entire training program.

I know my ivory tower program has a reputation as being one of the highest workload residencies in the country (rightfully so). However, even compared to a run of the mill IM or surgery residency program, it isn't that much work. It is no question why even at the generic, raw exposure level, an average MD just blows NPs out of the water. Every MD graduate who completes residency has essentially completed 4-5x the literal hours of work at the minimum - not even touching on the differences in amount of general reading/knowledge base, etc.
 
The number of hours of training is definitely accurate for both. However, we would need good studies (as opposed to anecdotes) supporting a correlation between raw hours of training and quality of care or cost outcomes for any of it to mean anything. Seriously, try to find even cherry picked studies that show physician superiority (as opposed to non-inferiority) by skimming Pubmed. It's challenging. Of course there are numerous reasons for this and an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but we have to remember that we make a positive claim when we say that hours of training directly correlate to improved outcomes.
 
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The number of hours of training is definitely accurate for both. However, we would need good studies (as opposed to anecdotes) supporting a correlation between raw hours of training and quality of care or cost outcomes for them to mean anything.

This is definitely one of the key concepts. The relationship between training hours and competency is almost assuredly not linear. There is likely a point at which outcome gains plateau, or only increase in non-meaningful ways compared to the time and cost going forward. The key word, though, is good studies. To undertake such a study, you would have to be open to the possibility that NP training is sufficient as a possible outcome, rather than setting up a study to prove a certain point.
 
The number of hours of training is definitely accurate for both. However, we would need good studies (as opposed to anecdotes) supporting a correlation between raw hours of training and quality of care or cost outcomes for any of it to mean anything. Seriously, try to find even a cherry picked study to show physician superiority (as opposed to non-inferiority) by skimming pubmed. It's challenging.
We do, but I also think this was a huge miss by the medical associations.

Is anyone out there letting a paralegal independently complete all their legal documents and argue their case in court? Is anyone having their IVF done by an Embryology tech? Are we having pharmacies with only pharmacy techs and no pharmacists? Is any medical floor staffed with only nursing assistants and not nurses?

I don't think there is empiric evidence in any of these cases that the person with 1/10 or less the training is equivalent and yet that's what has happened here in the US.
 
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Many of us psychiatrists work with NPs, social workers and psychologists.
I think such studies are a complete waste of time, money and energy. Those with actual experience know what they are dealing with.
 
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