Psyched out. Please help.

[whereisdaniel]

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I need some advice.

I am confused, confused, confused. So I think it's time I just bite the bullet and ask all the things I feel like I should know but don't.

Okay first! Um. What career do I want? I think I want to be a clinical child psychologist. I want to deal primarily with children and adolescents, and I want to engage in one-on-one therapy with patients. I am not exceedingly interested in conducting research, however I recognize that a broad understanding of research in the field is necessary to adequately carry out any such job. And I am greatly interested in all the theory behind it all, I just don't see myself organizing a lot of research. Thoughts?

Also, I understand the general distinction between PhD and PsyD, and I think that I would prefer a PsyD program over a PhD one. But almost all of them are so expensive! How do students afford it? I don't mean to incite another PsyD v. PhD debate! But do PsyD students just accept the debt and work it off later?

Finally, I've been reading up on several grad schools and some say, for example, "we do not aim to train students for careers in private practice or full-time service delivery" (UIC). Why this distinction? Do some schools intend to train students to be more fit as therapists, versus as researchers?

I'm just very confused and starting to get a little discouraged. Any help you guys could provide would help so much, I seriously appreciate it.

 

[Ollie123]

Yes, many schools are a poor choice if you want to say....open a private practice. Not that it isn't an option, just that the focus of their training is generally to prepare people for either research careers, or practice in a larger comprehensive setting (e.g. large VA system, clinician in an academic med center, etc.). Saying you want a private practice generally means you won't even get interviewed at these sorts of places regardless of your credentials as you aren't a good fit for what the program envisions for its students. Only know a few faculty members at UIC, but it makes sense if their program is like that. Mine certainly is as well. We're clinically trained, we actually average more clinical hours than the local PsyD program (admittedly spaced out over an additional year or two), but even our "clinically focused" folks generally want to work at places like large VAs where they may still have some research exposure.

Related to this, I'd encourage you to think long and hard about why you want a PsyD over a PhD. If the answer is simply "I'm more interested in practice", remember that there are a great number of PhD programs who primarily focus on training practitioners or are open to either option. You will still have to do research at these programs, but you'll have to do research at any remotely respectable PsyD program too. If I was primarily interested in practice, I would probably choose any one of those schools over the vast, vast majority of PsyD programs with just a handful of exceptions (e.g. Rutgers, Baylor). Far better reputations, more opportunities, better connected faculty, etc. Not to mention the fact that these programs will usually offer at least some funding.

Can't say for certain regarding the debt since taking something like that on was never something I even considered, but my impression is that yes - most people just end up taking on significant student loans.

 

[whereisdaniel]

Thanks for the reply Ollie!

Regarding PsyD/PhD, I think my only reasons for any preference are exactly the ones you gave. I think that, in the end, I will almost definitely be applying for PhD programs rather than PsyD programs overall (Baylor does happen to be on my list, but the majority are PhD programs). I have a solid appreciation for graduate-level research, I just don't want to be doing research all my career.

The idea of opening of a private practice does sound vaguely appealing but honestly I'm somewhat uninformed as to the job opportunities available as a clinical psychologist. But regardless of what I end up doing, why do so many schools seem to only be aiming their students at a career in research? Not that careers in research aren't important, of course. I just find it odd with the surplus of schools saying this sort of thing there would be a number of schools saying the alternative. I feel like I might be implying a dichotomy here where there shouldn't be one.

 

[Ollie123]

I do think there is some "prestige" associated with doing research that most schools aren't likely to say they ONLY want to train people interested in practice. Heck even most PsyD programs won't say that. Part of it also boils down to the faculty...even at a clinically-focused school, I'm not sure I see any reason the faculty would be particularly bothered by a student pursuing additional research. At a research-focused school, a faculty member will expect you to work in the lab a LOT....a student who wants to do lots of extra practica and avoids research whenever possible is quite likely going to have a negative impact on their colleagues. Many professors would probably prefer no one to one of these students, whereas I haven't heard of any aversion (in fact, quite the opposite) to students who want more research training at clinically-focused programs.

I'd suggest buying the Insider's Guide to graduate programs if you haven't yet (should be ~$20 on amazon). It will break down how research-focused the schools are - its far from a perfect system, but you can at least cross off some places. Chances are, if they don't say anything about it they are at least open to students pursuing either option but even then it can vary substantially within faculty members at a school.

 

[syzergy]

I don't know if this is true at other programs but the grad program at my undergraduate takes into account the grad student's preferences. It's an R1 school that's really research focused but there are some current grad students that are definitely most interested in clinical work. They still work on research and do dissertations and everything but spend a lot more time doing clinical work instead of pushing out publications. The grad students that are more interested in research careers spend most of their time working on research. Again, I don't know if this happens at other schools but it even if you go to a research school they might be ok with you preferring clinical work.

 

[SecktioN 8]

I don't know if this is true at other programs but the grad program at my undergraduate takes into account the grad student's preferences. It's an R1 school that's really research focused but there are some current grad students that are definitely most interested in clinical work. They still work on research and do dissertations and everything but spend a lot more time doing clinical work instead of pushing out publications. The grad students that are more interested in research careers spend most of their time working on research. Again, I don't know if this happens at other schools but it even if you go to a research school they might be ok with you preferring clinical work.

Would you mind stating what school?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

To make things even more confusing/complicated, there can be a significant amount of variation among individual faculty members in a single program. While the overall tone of the department should give you a good idea of the average expected amount of research participation, keep in mind that one professor may frequently ask for lab time at the expense of clinical work, while another may let you get by with just a thesis, dissertation, and perhaps one or two additional projects.

 

[wigflip]

why do so many schools seem to only be aiming their students at a career in research?

I feel where you're comin' from, whereisdaniel. My undergrad institution was very well ranked for psych, and it was made crystal clear on any number of occasions (by both faculty and grad students) that the department doesn't entertain applications from folks intending to practice (as opposed to becoming researchers). Clinical work was really stigmatized. Doctoral study was portrayed as the exclusive domain of budding academics, and the schools that focus on training clinicians (masters programs, PsyD programs) were characterized as catering to googly-eyed nitwits. (This of course leaves no place for aspiring clinicians to receive training, but actually doing clinical work wasn't valued, so that wasn't much of a conundrum). The attitudes were so negative that I actually gave up on the field, something I now regret, especially since I don't buy into any of that poisonous propaganda any more.

In my experience, as someone who is now in a doctoral program in another field, I think part of this snobbery stems from the idea that non-academic careers are somehow tainted, intellectually impure. There's a real stigma against taking one's PhD and using it to advance oneself in industry. And part of the rationale is that in doing so, you don't contribute to the "glory" of your alma mater and carry on your advisor's academic legacy. Psych is a little closer to the STEM disciplines in that you tend to have organized, funded labs with research teams (my department only really has one such lab under one well-funded prof), and your graduate student labor directly benefits your adviser. So if you prefer additional practicums to lab work, you're not helping your advisor advance her/his career as much you otherwise might. Similarly, advisers don't get paid hourly to advise grad students. If you take your degree and run to the private sector, your adviser may very well feel that you've squandered many hours of mentoring.

Of course, it was noted that one could always apply to a research heavy program and lie about one's post-graduate career plans. This didn't appeal to me at the time. I don't think I could have kept up the charade. Others here have indicated that their department's culture isn't like that, but mine certainly was, and from what I'm told by grad students in clin psych at my current school, it's similar there as well. As the joke goes:

When do you tell your adviser you're planning on going into private practice?
After the hooding ceremony!

 

[ClinicalABA]

I need some advice.

I am confused, confused, confused. So I think it's time I just bite the bullet and ask all the things I feel like I should know but don't.

Good for you for asking- it's a confusing process and a major life decision- get informed before you "sign on the dotted line"

Okay first! Um. What career do I want? I think I want to be a clinical child psychologist. I want to deal primarily with children and adolescents, and I want to engage in one-on-one therapy with patients. I am not exceedingly interested in conducting research, however I recognize that a broad understanding of research in the field is necessary to adequately carry out any such job. And I am greatly interested in all the theory behind it all, I just don't see myself organizing a lot of research. Thoughts?

What you say you "want to do" is not mutually exclusive to what you say you "want to be." In other words, working with children and adolescents, including doing one-on-one therapy, is not done exclusively by clinical child psychologists (in fact, it may be done more often by professionals who are not clinical child psychologists!). Licensed Clinical Social Workers, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Board Certified Behavior Analyst, and School Psychologists (just to name a few). Most of these licensures/certifications can be acquired with a masters degree. If you are not really interested in organizing and conducting research, then you should consider these types of programs, rather than an Ph.D in Clinical Psych (or even a Psy.D.). The masters level programs will prepare you to be licensed/certified to do what you want, and will most likely take less time and money than the doctoral programs, potentially with the the same long-term earning potential as the doctoral programs, when you figure in debt, opportunity costs, ease of finding employment, etc). A good clinical masters program will give you exposure to theory and research at a level that allows you to better understand rationale for your clinical work, without the requirement that you actually conduct the research.

Also, I understand the general distinction between PhD and PsyD, and I think that I would prefer a PsyD program over a PhD one. But almost all of them are so expensive! How do students afford it? I don't mean to incite another PsyD v. PhD debate! But do PsyD students just accept the debt and work it off later?

I can't comment on the Psy.D. students and their debt, but us Ph.D.'s don't always escape debt free! I went to a fully funded, unversity based doctoral program in clinical psych. The funding was not even close to my salary at my job before entering grad school, and the time commitment was much greater. While I did not incur tuition costs, there were significant opportunity costs that required student loans. I was not unique amongst my classmates in this respect.

With regards to the common belief that the Psy.D. is for "practitioners" and the "Ph.D." is for researchers/academics, I can only paraphrase many other posts on this board in saying that is simply not the case. A Ph.D. in Clinical Psych from an APA accredited program (and please don't consider non-approved programs) is an applied degree- you receive extensive training and supervision in providing clinical services. Most (all?) state licensure requirements for psychologists do not make a distinction between Psy.D.s and Ph.D.s for the supervised therapy hours required to be licensed. APA approved Clinical Ph.D. programs will provide you the required pre-doctoral training to be a licensed practitioner. It has been my experience that my clinical training (at a Boulder-Model scientist-practitioner program) was at least as comprehensive as that of Pys.D.'s I have interned with, worked with, or supervised/been supervised by, and in many cases it was more extensive. The Clinical Psych. Ph.D. is not an experimental degree!

I'm just very confused and starting to get a little discouraged. Any help you guys could provide would help so much, I seriously appreciate it.

Confusion is a good thing- it lets you know that you need more information before making a major life decision. As far as discouragement goes, I think it's better to be prudent and be discouraged, than to be wreckless and optimistic. You are just starting out and there are many options. You want to work with and help children and adolescents. There are plenty of children and adolescents who need many types of help, and there are many avenues available for you to take to put yourself in a position to do just that.

Best of Luck

 

[ClinicalABA]

why do so many schools seem to only be aiming their students at a career in research?

While wigflip may have some valid points related to academic snobbery, etc., I think that many programs are also being realistic with their students when aiming them away from a career goal of private practice. If an applicant to a Clinical Ph.D. program states that her/his goal is to get the Ph.D. so they can go into private practice, I feel that the program would be doing that applicant a disservice by accepting him/her under that pretense. While the Clinical Ph.D. does prepare someone for such a career, it is a very inefficient path to take if that is your goal.

I do, however, think there are a lot of false dichotomies created in this type of discussion (e.g. psychologist do testing/diagnosis, LMHC and Social Workers do therapy; Ph.D.s do research, Psy.D.s do clinical work). Fact is, a good Clinical Ph.D. program should prepare you to do research, teach, do therapy, supervise other clinicians, evaluate clinical systems, and assess and diagnose mental illness. If all you want to do is one or two of these things, there may be cheaper options. If, specifically, all you want to do is outpatient therapy, there are cheaper options. Even if the reasons behind these cheaper option aren't great, aren't fair to psychologists, etc., they are still real. Applicants deserve to be weeded out up front, versus disappointed at the back-end of their training.

 

[whereisdaniel]

Thank you all for such great responses and the encouragement!

Wigflip, the "stigma" you note as being associated with clinical work worries me a little; if I want to do clinical work as the main component of my career, how should I best go about doing this? I don't want to be squeezed through a mold that best fits what I want to do, I want to find a program that aligns with my interests. It's just difficult because I see so many schools aiming to train PhD students as researchers.

I think it's interesting how much different jobs in this field can overlap. It just confuses me a little more. I definitely want to do something like this, but specifically... I don't know for sure. I don't want to spend 4-6 years getting a Ph.D if I would be satisfied with a licensure/certification I could attain with only master's. I just don't know what differences to expect between the two.

I think a big concern I have is I don't want to feel limited by my degree. I don't want to get a master's, then down the road be saying to myself "I wish I had a PhD so I could do XYZ." I feel like a PhD would open more doors for me, but then again the number of doors you have open doesn't necessarily matter if there's only one that you want. If I could do what I want to do with a master's, then that would probably be the best route.

tl;dr
If someone asked me "Why do you want a Ph.D over a master's?" I don't think I would have a good answer for them. What sort of differences would I encounter between a job requiring a master's and a job requiring a Ph.D? For example, LCSW or LPC vs psychologist?

 

[wigflip]

Wigflip, the "stigma" you note as being associated with clinical work worries me a little; if I want to do clinical work as the main component of my career, how should I best go about doing this? I don't want to be squeezed through a mold that best fits what I want to do, I want to find a program that aligns with my interests. It's just difficult because I see so many schools aiming to train PhD students as researchers.

I'm probably not the best person to answer this--as I (probably?) mentioned above, my undergrad background is in psych, but I'm in a different field now (doing research but not clinical work), contemplating a return to psych.

That said, you may find that type of stigma, to some degree or another, in top ranked research-oriented PhD programs. But if you're willing to sacrifice the prestige for fit, there are other options such as PsyD programs and more "balanced" funded PhD programs. Or a masters program may be sufficient. As others have mentioned, the Insiders Guide (new edition for 2012 is out now) is probably a good place to start, as well as anonymous forums like this one. I talked to several grad students in my current program over the phone before enrolling, and the perspectives they shared about our program don't match up with my own experiences at all. At least anonymous folks online can just share their opinions and experiences without fear of backlash or gossip. Academia is small, and people have ample motivation to paint a rosy picture. Example: I told a colleague at another university that I wasn't happy, and s/he warned off a prospective grad student from applying to my school. The prospective grad student then narced me out to a former mentor, who confronted me when we ran into each other in a frickin' fast food restaurant about the whole thing.

Another strategy is once you've narrowed down your choices, you can seek out folks who have left those particular departments. Might be hard to do, but it's worth a try. If they seem like nutjobs--fine. But if they seem like reasonable people with legit grievances, it's something to keep in mind. I talked to one such disgruntled ex-student and s/he steered me clear of making a colossal boo boo.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

To the best of my knowledge, I believe most clinical psych Ph.D. graduates spend the majority of their time in a clinical capacity. Thus, schools (except for the most research-heavy) will likely expect (and, in many cases, I dare say hope) that you'll be a practicing clinician.

That being said, most Ph.D. programs will not want to hear that ALL you want to do is clinical work. Additionally, even with the same department, some professors will be more practice-friendly vs. research-friendly. Part of this may stem from academic "snobbery," part from the field being so relatively young and thus there being a constant undercurrent of a need for information generation and advancement, and part from the general feeling that sharp research skills make for sharp clinical skills. Also, if you come in working with a newer faculty member, he/she will be working toward tenure and thus will have a significant investment in research.

 

[roubs]

to the best of my knowledge, i believe most clinical psych ph.d. Graduates spend the majority of their time in a clinical capacity. Thus, schools (except for the most research-heavy) will likely expect (and, in many cases, i dare say hope) that you'll be a practicing clinician.

That being said, most ph.d. Programs will not want to hear that all you want to do is clinical work. Additionally, even with the same department, some professors will be more practice-friendly vs. Research-friendly. Part of this may stem from academic "snobbery," part from the field being so relatively young and thus there being a constant undercurrent of a need for information generation and advancement, and part from the general feeling that sharp research skills make for sharp clinical skills. Also, if you come in working with a newer faculty member, he/she will be working toward tenure and thus will have a significant investment in research.

+1

 

[Sendtrees]

Hi OP,
My advice is to say what you have to in order to get into the program you want. These people are not your friends. They are seeking low wage workers, a minority of which, if they're lucky, will replicate the same pyramid scheme. Find a professor whose work you think is interesting, make sure there is a second professor whose work is interesting enough that if the first one leaves, you will not be totally ****ed (you can bet that profs are going to be sure to act in their own self -interest), and prepare yourself for several years of low reward. But come out of this adventure with minimal debt.

 

[wigflip]

hi op,
my advice is to say what you have to in order to get into the program you want. These people are not your friends. They are seeking low wage workers, a minority of which, if they're lucky, will replicate the same pyramid scheme. Find a professor whose work you think is interesting, make sure there is a second professor whose work is interesting enough that if the first one leaves, you will not be totally ****ed (you can bet that profs are going to be sure to act in their own self -interest), and prepare yourself for several years of low reward. But come out of this adventure with minimal debt.

Yes!
TITCR.

 

[roubs]

Hi OP,
My advice is to say what you have to in order to get into the program you want. These people are not your friends. They are seeking low wage workers, a minority of which, if they're lucky, will replicate the same pyramid scheme. Find a professor whose work you think is interesting, make sure there is a second professor whose work is interesting enough that if the first one leaves, you will not be totally ****ed (you can bet that profs are going to be sure to act in their own self -interest), and prepare yourself for several years of low reward. But come out of this adventure with minimal debt.

This is a great prescription for how to hate the next 6-8 years of your life. There's no doubt that graduate school is a transaction, but the above, in my opinion, reflects some serious cynicism.

I mean, exactly which people in life don't act in their own self-interest? I've yet to meet them 😛

And really I don't view the above sentence as cynical. Acknowledging that everyone comes at grad school with their own needs and wants I think actually helps you navigate it with a minimum of stress.

 

[Sendtrees]

I am cynical, sure. My main point was that the OP should also act in his own self -interest just as academics do, and if that means saying he "wants a career in research" in order not to accrue $100K of debt, then do it. Bear in mind, please, that PhD programs replicate their own in numbers that outstrip jobs available, particularly if other aspects of healthy self -interest come into play.

 

[wigflip]

.