Psychiatric Pharmacy........

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CuriousPharmD

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What type of jobs/work is available to somebody interested in a career in Psychiatric Pharmacy??? Also, what type of educational pathway is advisable for somebody interested in this type of career, i.e. is a residancy necessary for this type of work????

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This is actually a big field within pharmacy now. Many county mental health facilities employ pharmacists to provide therapeutic management for outpatients.

Some hospitals have inpatient mental health units & most prisons do as well. SNF's also utilize these folks as consultants as well.

Drugs are considered a form of restraint - chemical restraint. They have the same strict guidelines & in some cases consent that physical restraints have.

A colleague of mine switched from acute inpatient pharmacy to psychiatric pharmacy within a psychiatric criminal facility & he finds it tremendously fulfilling. Not a job for everyone, but for the right person it can be great.

Yes....you need to do a residency. Not only do you need to learn these drugs inside & out, you also need to learn how they work in the different patients. Risperdal will have different side effects in a schizophrenic than it will in a pt with Alhzeimers - in part due to the pts ability to communicate that difference. Additionally, you need to know the laws & requirements with regard to pt rights very well. What is allowable in an acute hospital is not always allowable in a SNF.
 
sdn1977 said:
This is actually a big field within pharmacy now. Many county mental health facilities employ pharmacists to provide therapeutic management for outpatients.

Some hospitals have inpatient mental health units & most prisons do as well. SNF's also utilize these folks as consultants as well.

Drugs are considered a form of restraint - chemical restraint. They have the same strict guidelines & in some cases consent that physical restraints have.

A colleague of mine switched from acute inpatient pharmacy to psychiatric pharmacy within a psychiatric criminal facility & he finds it tremendously fulfilling. Not a job for everyone, but for the right person it can be great.

Yes....you need to do a residency. Not only do you need to learn these drugs inside & out, you also need to learn how they work in the different patients. Risperdal will have different side effects in a schizophrenic than it will in a pt with Alhzeimers - in part due to the pts ability to communicate that difference. Additionally, you need to know the laws & requirements with regard to pt rights very well. What is allowable in an acute hospital is not always allowable in a SNF.

So I take it that if its required to do a residency, it will take 2 years of residency since psychiatric pharmacy is a specialty?? So this means I have to finish up school with a pretty good gpa (about what?) Also, what else should I have on my resume, i.e type of work experience, extra-curriculars and leadership. Can anyone confirm this?? Thanks.....
 
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I don't know...there is a really fine line between the staff and patients at psych facilities.
 
Hmmm. This sounds very interesting. Definitely something I'm going to look into a little further.
 
CuriousPharmD said:
What type of jobs/work is available to somebody interested in a career in Psychiatric Pharmacy??? Also, what type of educational pathway is advisable for somebody interested in this type of career, i.e. is a residancy necessary for this type of work????

Please see the College of Psychiatric and Neurologic Pharmacists (www.cpnp.org). I believe membership is still free for students and the listserv is quite informative. Yes psych will typically be considered a specialty residency; however, depending on the interpretation of the new residency regulations (PGY1, PGY2, etc) some of the psych residencies may still go for the PGY1 designation and find ways to facillitate the PGY1 regulations w/ psych training (i.e. a pharmacy practice residency w/ a emphasis in psychiatry) so you may only be looking at 1yr. The reason why this may occur is that the concern w/ residency training is the actual size of the talent pool. Since psych isn't as popular as critical care or oncology the amount of applicants that compete for one residency spot in psychiatry varies alot from year to year so the programs are concerned about how an extra yr of residency training may serve as a potential deterrent to those wishing to do psych. The only program that has actually already kind of done this is the program at Rutgers; however, they have had some turnover recently as some of the faculty has moved on to industry so I'm not sure how any of the new faculty may feel about the recruitment of residency candidates.

As SDN1977 mentioned psych pharmacy is multi-faceted (depression/anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, PTSD, substance abuse, dementia, etc) as you have to have an appreciation for psychopharmacology (see Stephen Stahl, MD, PhD Essential in psychopharmacology) and also an understanding of the various psychometric tests (see the chapters in DiPiro and Koda Kimble). Put these two entities together and you understand therapeutics in various pt populations and how to determine outcomes via the psychometric tests.

GPA...just graduate w/ a 3.0 or above. Most residency programs (w/ the exception of those really competitive ones which is <5% of most residencies) really don't set limits about grade cut-offs. Extracurriculars...The most impt thing is that you are familiar w/ what you are getting into. Volunteering is kind of hard, but you could always check out the local National Association for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) or shadow a pharmacist that works in the Dept of Mental Health or on a psych ward.

Job outlook...the bulk of psych pharmacists work in one of the 3 settings: academia/academic medical centers, department of mental health, or the VA hospital system

Bad side of psych...location, location, location
The amount of jobs out there are variable as most of the efforts in justifying clinical pharmacy services has gone to ambulatory care, critical care, med safety, oncology, pediatrics, etc. The problem w/ psych is the lack of defined outcomes so it is hard to justify service given it is difficult to evaluate the outcome as that may be based on the clinicians impression. Example...one indicator for a poorly controlled diabetic is a HgbA1c >8% so you can justify and validate how a pharmacist may be effective in improving HgbA1c scores.

A controlled schizophrenic may be determined by various psychometric test; however, a definitive outcome is not there as there is nothing you can measure in the pts blood to show an improved response. The psychometric tests are great and you can also show improved side effect profile; however, the receptiveness of the psychiatrist is really ideal and the tests themselves are always subjective to the clinician. Hint...the easiest way to get the foot in the door is monitoring for EPS w/ older agents (conventional antipsychotics like haldol, mellaril, etc) or monitoring for metabolic side effects w/ atypical antipsychotics (i.e. zyprexa, risperdal, seroquel, etc).

Depression, bipolar are a little more complicated, but pharmacists are still quite effective in streamlining medications and increasing response rates. Geropsych is always an option as well as the needs of the elderly typically outweigh the # of available clinicians for any disease state.

Back to some of the caveats...the VA, dept of mental health, and academia/academic medical center are fairly limited job markets unless you are able to move around to find that ideal job. Job openings in the VA just vary from yr to yr and from one VA to the next. Pay will also vary w/i the vary when compared to private sector. Pay could be comparable or much less than private sector (i.e. 10-15k less/yr)

Dept of Mental Health typically pay at least 10-15k less than the avg pharmacist in private sector, but benefits are pretty good.

VA is great w/ scope of practice/prescribing privileges and large psych population, but depending on what VA you are in pay may be variable, retention is high so turnover is low given benefits so new jobs opening up are minimal.

Academia is more of the same. Great gig if you can get it.

Psych populations in the avg hospital typically aren't big enough to justify 1 clinical pharmacist so you either have to be willing to staff w/ clinical duties or complement you psych knowledge w/ something else (i.e. geriatrics or internal medicine). The latter may be the most advantageous as you can establish a setting in a unique population as most in psych pharmacists are in the other 3 settings so you can really "work" the practice site and the local schools of pharmacy will love you for it in addition you can show pharm students and residents and application of psych pharmacy in other medical disciplines outside of psych (i.e. psychosomatics). This route you have a fair amount of flexibility as every hospital could always use another pharamcist to cover internal medicine and most hospitals also have ~20bed psych unit w/ no previously clinical pharmacy services to psych. I hope this answers your questions, but I'd really check out www.cpnp.org for more info. Residency programs should be listed in the website or in one of the recent newsletters.
 
kwizard said:
Please see the College of Psychiatric and Neurologic Pharmacists (www.cpnp.org). I believe membership is still free for students and the listserv is quite informative. Yes psych will typically be considered a specialty residency; however, depending on the interpretation of the new residency regulations (PGY1, PGY2, etc) some of the psych residencies may still go for the PGY1 designation and find ways to facillitate the PGY1 regulations w/ psych training (i.e. a pharmacy practice residency w/ a emphasis in psychiatry) so you may only be looking at 1yr. The reason why this may occur is that the concern w/ residency training is the actual size of the talent pool. Since psych isn't as popular as critical care or oncology the amount of applicants that compete for one residency spot in psychiatry varies alot from year to year so the programs are concerned about how an extra yr of residency training may serve as a potential deterrent to those wishing to do psych. The only program that has actually already kind of done this is the program at Rutgers; however, they have had some turnover recently as some of the faculty has moved on to industry so I'm not sure how any of the new faculty may feel about the recruitment of residency candidates.

As SDN1977 mentioned psych pharmacy is multi-faceted (depression/anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, PTSD, substance abuse, dementia, etc) as you have to have an appreciation for psychopharmacology (see Stephen Stahl, MD, PhD Essential in psychopharmacology) and also an understanding of the various psychometric tests (see the chapters in DiPiro and Koda Kimble). Put these two entities together and you understand therapeutics in various pt populations and how to determine outcomes via the psychometric tests.

GPA...just graduate w/ a 3.0 or above. Most residency programs (w/ the exception of those really competitive ones which is <5% of most residencies) really don't set limits about grade cut-offs. Extracurriculars...The most impt thing is that you are familiar w/ what you are getting into. Volunteering is kind of hard, but you could always check out the local National Association for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) or shadow a pharmacist that works in the Dept of Mental Health or on a psych ward.

Job outlook...the bulk of psych pharmacists work in one of the 3 settings: academia/academic medical centers, department of mental health, or the VA hospital system

Bad side of psych...location, location, location
The amount of jobs out there are variable as most of the efforts in justifying clinical pharmacy services has gone to ambulatory care, critical care, med safety, oncology, pediatrics, etc. The problem w/ psych is the lack of defined outcomes so it is hard to justify service given it is difficult to evaluate the outcome as that may be based on the clinicians impression. Example...one indicator for a poorly controlled diabetic is a HgbA1c >8% so you can justify and validate how a pharmacist may be effective in improving HgbA1c scores.

A controlled schizophrenic may be determined by various psychometric test; however, a definitive outcome is not there as there is nothing you can measure in the pts blood to show an improved response. The psychometric tests are great and you can also show improved side effect profile; however, the receptiveness of the psychiatrist is really ideal and the tests themselves are always subjective to the clinician. Hint...the easiest way to get the foot in the door is monitoring for EPS w/ older agents (conventional antipsychotics like haldol, mellaril, etc) or monitoring for metabolic side effects w/ atypical antipsychotics (i.e. zyprexa, risperdal, seroquel, etc).

Depression, bipolar are a little more complicated, but pharmacists are still quite effective in streamlining medications and increasing response rates. Geropsych is always an option as well as the needs of the elderly typically outweigh the # of available clinicians for any disease state.

Back to some of the caveats...the VA, dept of mental health, and academia/academic medical center are fairly limited job markets unless you are able to move around to find that ideal job. Job openings in the VA just vary from yr to yr and from one VA to the next. Pay will also vary w/i the vary when compared to private sector. Pay could be comparable or much less than private sector (i.e. 10-15k less/yr)

Dept of Mental Health typically pay at least 10-15k less than the avg pharmacist in private sector, but benefits are pretty good.

VA is great w/ scope of practice/prescribing privileges and large psych population, but depending on what VA you are in pay may be variable, retention is high so turnover is low given benefits so new jobs opening up are minimal.

Academia is more of the same. Great gig if you can get it.

Psych populations in the avg hospital typically aren't big enough to justify 1 clinical pharmacist so you either have to be willing to staff w/ clinical duties or complement you psych knowledge w/ something else (i.e. geriatrics or internal medicine). The latter may be the most advantageous as you can establish a setting in a unique population as most in psych pharmacists are in the other 3 settings so you can really "work" the practice site and the local schools of pharmacy will love you for it in addition you can show pharm students and residents and application of psych pharmacy in other medical disciplines outside of psych (i.e. psychosomatics). This route you have a fair amount of flexibility as every hospital could always use another pharamcist to cover internal medicine and most hospitals also have ~20bed psych unit w/ no previously clinical pharmacy services to psych. I hope this answers your questions, but I'd really check out www.cpnp.org for more info. Residency programs should be listed in the website or in one of the recent newsletters.

Good Lord... did you take a typing class?
 
Honestly Zpack....has your mind been boggled totally with disaster scenarios????

Kwizard, again, summarizes very well....but...I'd disagree with a few points. At least here in CA (can I say....sadly!) we have, perhaps, more opportunities for psych pharmacists in our criminal justice system.

As for our hospitals with a locked mental facility - most all of them have a pharmacist who is trained more specifically in psych than others. However, here in CA, we don't have what some of you have so much as defined "clinical pharmacists". We combine our dispensing functions (which are low) with our "clinical" functions. And these folks often have to cross over between other areas of pharmacy. Skilled nursing facilities are a good cross over, but sometimes you'll get acute medicine...so you need to keep your acute skills up (you can't ever lose track of determining a gent level!)

Altho Kwizard is a great VA fan - and the VA system is great itself - here in CA...the pay is really bad. Its very hard to keep up with our cost of living. So...we have other venues for care. Many psych pharmacy folk do consulting for a number of SNF's & mental health facilities. We also have a huge system of outpt mental health clinics which handle all sorts of stuff. Altho there are many different disciplines, you work with psych techs, psych nurses & psychiatrists to try to manage the pt (compliance is a huge issue in this population).

I'm not on the inside when it comes to determining residency so those folks who are could give you more info. But...I'd say...yes..you have to do well academically. But...you also have to develop that ability to "think on your feet". There is no one right way of doing anything in medicine. Be willing to be open to flexible ways of managing patients & of hearing patient histories. Try to get as much exposure as you can to the field. Start with the resources Kwizard mentioned. But...then...call prison pharmacies, hospitals with psych units, etc just to get exposure.

Who knows.....like Zpack....you may find the reality is not like the fantasy!
 
we have a 60 bed geropsych facility... seems mundane..

The disaster drill was on Anthrax outbreak... good thing I have enought Doxy, Cipro, and levaquin to prophylax over 1000 patients..
 
sdn1977 said:
Kwizard, again, summarizes very well....but...I'd disagree with a few points. At least here in CA (can I say....sadly!) we have, perhaps, more opportunities for psych pharmacists in our criminal justice system.

Agreed. However, I would say that CA is a little different than the rest of the country when considering variable oppurtunities in pharmacy (especially w/ psych as psych pharmacy started in psych w/ 1st psych residency at USC (I think). Texas may be the other exception w/ an abundance of positions as Texas is home of the biggest psych pharmacy training program at UTSA as they became the "hub" for many of those graduates of the early USC residency graduates. The prison system is always in high demand so we'd agree on that, but it is just not my "cup of tea". The various consulting aspects are nice as well but East of the Mississippi (hope I spelled that right) it is kind of clumped up into general nursing home consulting (just my experiences). Yes the prison system in CA has been improving w/ pay over the yrs as has the Dept of Mental Health dept in Missouri (oddly enough).

VA experiences...yes I am high on the VA, but given my recent luck (or lack of it) the VA is hard to get into if you have to move or do residency training in a VA in a different geographic area than where you want to practice. So yes I'd agree that it may not be the best place depending on where you are, but if you can find a good one than go for it. Sorry if I haven't prefaced these opinions in my more recent posts.

Residency training...for better or for worse pharmacy is going the way of residency training for most positions outside of retail/long term care. You have to have either of the following: residency training or experience (ideally many employers want both). Therefore if you are coming straight out of school than you really don't have much experience so job oppurtunities may be limited to retail and/or hospitals w/ high turnover rates (please note this is my opinion so it will vary w/ one's own experiences).

Honestly I have gone the route of psych/internal medicine combo. I like having a competitive salary w/ my colleagues and the options of being able to duplicate my current services at any of the other hospitals vs feeling "locked in a particular setting" (i.e. VA hospitals, academic, DOMH, etc). Other side of the coin is that any clinical service is somewhat self-limiting as how well you are able to push things is often dependent on the relationship you have w/ the other providers; however, w/ time it becomes easier to convince others that you are of a benefit in improving pt care and are also of benefit to the pharmacy dept.
 
CuriousPharmD said:
What type of jobs/work is available to somebody interested in a career in Psychiatric Pharmacy??? Also, what type of educational pathway is advisable for somebody interested in this type of career, i.e. is a residancy necessary for this type of work????


Please also see a previous post where I mentioned some other hopefully helpful points: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=250673
 
So what type of places in the Chicago-land area would be spots that a psychiatric pharmacist can work???
 
CuriousPharmD said:
So what type of places in the Chicago-land area would be spots that a psychiatric pharmacist can work???

I'm limited in my experience but Northwestern Hospital has 3 inpatient pysch units for now. (New building on the way and it hasnt been determined if psych is coming with) The pharmacy i work out of has a pharmacist during the week that is responible for handling the psych orders and rounding with the docs but all of our pharmacists do it. We dont have one person that rounds with psych all the time, all of the pharmacists rotate rounding with the different teams.

That's all i can provide.
 
CuriousPharmD said:
So what type of places in the Chicago-land area would be spots that a psychiatric pharmacist can work???

I'd agree with the previous post and check out any of the academic medical centers in the area, as they typically have the biggest psych populations outside of any other psych hospitals and/or state federal sector.

Psych pharmacy tends to grow more in the areas that have training programs for pharmacists. In the midwest you have Iowa, Univ of Michigan, Colorado (mostly in Denver at Kaiser), Missouri (St. Louis, Kansas City, and St Joseph). Kentucky has a program as well. But I guess it depends on your interpretation of "midwest" whether these areas are relatively close or not.

For openings in the Dept of Mental Health, just check out the local Dept of Mental Health website and see how pharmacy services are handled. Other option would be the VA system, maybe Kaiser, and/or the academic medical centers.
 
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