This thread is going in a pretty negative direction.
If a moderator would like to delete this thread that would be great!
If a moderator would like to delete this thread that would be great!
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Psychiatry and MD/PhD/MSTP?
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As someone who hasn't gone to med-school, I can't give you specific advice - but I wouldn't let age discourage you. Check out the nontrad forum here, and oldpremeds.com - there are plenty of people your age (and older) who have gained admission to med schools. DO schools may be slightly more receptive to older applicants, so may want to consider them too.
It's basically going to come down to how you do on your pre-req GPA and MCATs. If you do well on those, and arent geographically limited (and apply broadly), you should be alright. I wouldn't worry about your program influencing residency - psychiatry residencies aren't very competitive relative to other specialities. As long as you don't fail your steps you should get into somewhere decent.
It's basically going to come down to how you do on your pre-req GPA and MCATs. If you do well on those, and arent geographically limited (and apply broadly), you should be alright. I wouldn't worry about your program influencing residency - psychiatry residencies aren't very competitive relative to other specialities. As long as you don't fail your steps you should get into somewhere decent.
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With all the usual uncertainties and caveats, I'd toss out:
a. If your plan is to be a clinician, don't do a PhD at this point. Do the 2 year program and make as many science A's as possible.
b. Schools will be wary of 4 degrees in someone who's applying at 37/38. Are you unable to settle down? Are you perpetually unsatisfied? Why would medical school be your last degree? The narrative that you present will need to take into consideration these hesitations.
c. Similar to b, but to be explicit: all schools/programs/jobs want to be reassured that you will fit in. So-called "elite" schools may be more willing to take chances if you can demonstrate that you'll do something special. If that's your goal, then consider that PhD but do it quick, do something productive, and have a crystalline focus that can be spoken about in a paragraph. Don't mention to them that you plan to enter academics "much later" in life. At this point, you'll be finishing your residency in your mid to late 40's. I consider that fairly young, but it's not young if you consider that an academic career takes a while to get going--and they're going to want you to be spitting fire out of the starting gate; if you're not, why shouldn't they take a 22 year old who indicates that interest?
Good luck with it.
a. If your plan is to be a clinician, don't do a PhD at this point. Do the 2 year program and make as many science A's as possible.
b. Schools will be wary of 4 degrees in someone who's applying at 37/38. Are you unable to settle down? Are you perpetually unsatisfied? Why would medical school be your last degree? The narrative that you present will need to take into consideration these hesitations.
c. Similar to b, but to be explicit: all schools/programs/jobs want to be reassured that you will fit in. So-called "elite" schools may be more willing to take chances if you can demonstrate that you'll do something special. If that's your goal, then consider that PhD but do it quick, do something productive, and have a crystalline focus that can be spoken about in a paragraph. Don't mention to them that you plan to enter academics "much later" in life. At this point, you'll be finishing your residency in your mid to late 40's. I consider that fairly young, but it's not young if you consider that an academic career takes a while to get going--and they're going to want you to be spitting fire out of the starting gate; if you're not, why shouldn't they take a 22 year old who indicates that interest?
Good luck with it.
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As long as you can take all that narrative and squeeze it into just one page, you should be totally set.
You will severely limit your options at this point by pursuing an md/phd program vs just an MD program, and face a much higher likelihood of age-discrimination.
No one gets into academics late in life. There's really no method by which to have that happen. At least not the kind of academics that requires a Ph.D. The career tracks simply aren't built for someone to phase IN to a research career.
Instead, you should follow my likely path, which is burn out hard after a few grant cycles, become entirely disillusionsed, and THEN focus on a full-time clinical career in some rural town as far away from the university as possible. It's so much easier that way! 😍
You will severely limit your options at this point by pursuing an md/phd program vs just an MD program, and face a much higher likelihood of age-discrimination.
No one gets into academics late in life. There's really no method by which to have that happen. At least not the kind of academics that requires a Ph.D. The career tracks simply aren't built for someone to phase IN to a research career.
Instead, you should follow my likely path, which is burn out hard after a few grant cycles, become entirely disillusionsed, and THEN focus on a full-time clinical career in some rural town as far away from the university as possible. It's so much easier that way! 😍
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You need a clear hook (lots of people are good people).
You will be expected to demonstrate greater maturity and focus than a 22 year old.
Brevity is a virtue.
You will be expected to demonstrate greater maturity and focus than a 22 year old.
Brevity is a virtue.
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Agreed that you need to distill your story into something a bit more brief in essays and on message boards as its hard to answer all your questions and read all that you have to say!
Basic answers: Very low chance of acceptance to MD/PHD. Do MD alone and you can be involved in some research at that time.
As someone who has been on an adcom at an ivy residency: you have some compelling background, and state school med school and university are in no way going to slow you down from admission into top schools if your goal is a bit more focused and if you interview well.
It absolutely is true that sometimes we see really "achieving" people but don't neccessarily know how they would fit into the residency or why they want to be a psychiatrist specifically. If you have a clear academic or clinical goal that brings your past experiences into use and focus to contribute to the field, then it is much more likely that you will be looked upon favorably. Remember, residencies, and medical schools for that matter, care very little about what they can do for you (for you to have a fun and interesting life) but rather what you can do for them and for the field. You have to show a level of competence and ability to handle the rigors, but beyond that, life experience helps quite a bit, especially focused life experience.
You should accept that your age will be discriminated against (covertly, or subconsciously) by medical school adcoms. To be completely honest, the stamina it takes to get through med school and internship takes a major toll on everybody and ages you quite a bit, and I've heard and seen this to be particular hard on people who have had alternative careers or who are not as young. I think many adcoms factor this in, whether they admit it or not.
Finally, you can do all the academic and clinical work you please and be called "Dr.", and focus on the "biological basis of behavior" by doing a PhD in psychology. You probably are already well set up to do that (better than for MD). The only thing you won't be able to do is prescribe (and in some states, even that may be possible on a limited basis). Especially if income is not a major factor, I think its worthwhile to think about why that route isn't a better choice.
Some of the most prominent academicians and clinicians in elite Departments of Psychiatry are PhDs.
Basic answers: Very low chance of acceptance to MD/PHD. Do MD alone and you can be involved in some research at that time.
As someone who has been on an adcom at an ivy residency: you have some compelling background, and state school med school and university are in no way going to slow you down from admission into top schools if your goal is a bit more focused and if you interview well.
It absolutely is true that sometimes we see really "achieving" people but don't neccessarily know how they would fit into the residency or why they want to be a psychiatrist specifically. If you have a clear academic or clinical goal that brings your past experiences into use and focus to contribute to the field, then it is much more likely that you will be looked upon favorably. Remember, residencies, and medical schools for that matter, care very little about what they can do for you (for you to have a fun and interesting life) but rather what you can do for them and for the field. You have to show a level of competence and ability to handle the rigors, but beyond that, life experience helps quite a bit, especially focused life experience.
You should accept that your age will be discriminated against (covertly, or subconsciously) by medical school adcoms. To be completely honest, the stamina it takes to get through med school and internship takes a major toll on everybody and ages you quite a bit, and I've heard and seen this to be particular hard on people who have had alternative careers or who are not as young. I think many adcoms factor this in, whether they admit it or not.
Finally, you can do all the academic and clinical work you please and be called "Dr.", and focus on the "biological basis of behavior" by doing a PhD in psychology. You probably are already well set up to do that (better than for MD). The only thing you won't be able to do is prescribe (and in some states, even that may be possible on a limited basis). Especially if income is not a major factor, I think its worthwhile to think about why that route isn't a better choice.
Some of the most prominent academicians and clinicians in elite Departments of Psychiatry are PhDs.
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Thanks for the feedback. I would like to clarify that I posted *all* the information about my situation in order to avoid lots of followup posts. I tend present myself extremely well in interviews and in writing. (I did receive multiple prestigious scholarships, including a Fulbright, that required writing and interviews.) I have really appreciated the replies with specific responses to my questions rather than focused on my writing style, which was informal writing on a message board- NOT what I would say or write in an essay or interview.
I also did not elaborate on my reasons for going into psychiatry because my post was already long and I was more concerned about getting feedback regarding 1) whether my age and state university would prevent me from getting into a top medical school and/or residency and 2) whether it made sense for me to pursue MD/PhD, MSTP, or just MD. I appreciate all the responses related to those questions! I appreciate your replies that have shown me the logical reasons why applying for MD alone makes more sense and that is now my current plan.
By the time I apply, I will have two years of research in a lab exploring health and medical decision making. I will have years of experience leading a health and wellness group for Native American people recovering from substance abuse that is part of an intensive outpatient program. I will also have years of experience in a hospital setting working as a clinical liaison (behavioral/mental health) with patients who are predominantly Latino and definitely underserved in the healthcare system. I will have taken all the pre-reqs and taken coursework in clinical pathophysiology, neuroanatomy, psychophysiology, and health sector management. Prior to that, I worked in a psychiatric hospital. There is more but it is better listed (succintly) on a CV/resume than in this forum. The point is that I'm hoping this is a strong enough demonstration that I have a sincere interest in medicine. If not, then I am hoping for suggestions about what to improve upon.
As for the ability to keep up with rigorous work that can take its toll... this semester, I am taking 21 hours of coursework- at doctoral level aside from two science pre-reqs that are obviously undergrad level. I am also working in a research lab, teaching the lab for psych research methods at the university, and teaching 4 psychology courses dispersed among 3 local community colleges. I will also be doing clinical hours at the hospital and volunteering weekly at the Native American Health Center. I also work out just about every day and I have a very happy and fulfilling relationship. This level of workload is routine for me- will medical school be more demanding? 😕
I also did not elaborate on my reasons for going into psychiatry because my post was already long and I was more concerned about getting feedback regarding 1) whether my age and state university would prevent me from getting into a top medical school and/or residency and 2) whether it made sense for me to pursue MD/PhD, MSTP, or just MD. I appreciate all the responses related to those questions! I appreciate your replies that have shown me the logical reasons why applying for MD alone makes more sense and that is now my current plan.
By the time I apply, I will have two years of research in a lab exploring health and medical decision making. I will have years of experience leading a health and wellness group for Native American people recovering from substance abuse that is part of an intensive outpatient program. I will also have years of experience in a hospital setting working as a clinical liaison (behavioral/mental health) with patients who are predominantly Latino and definitely underserved in the healthcare system. I will have taken all the pre-reqs and taken coursework in clinical pathophysiology, neuroanatomy, psychophysiology, and health sector management. Prior to that, I worked in a psychiatric hospital. There is more but it is better listed (succintly) on a CV/resume than in this forum. The point is that I'm hoping this is a strong enough demonstration that I have a sincere interest in medicine. If not, then I am hoping for suggestions about what to improve upon.
As for the ability to keep up with rigorous work that can take its toll... this semester, I am taking 21 hours of coursework- at doctoral level aside from two science pre-reqs that are obviously undergrad level. I am also working in a research lab, teaching the lab for psych research methods at the university, and teaching 4 psychology courses dispersed among 3 local community colleges. I will also be doing clinical hours at the hospital and volunteering weekly at the Native American Health Center. I also work out just about every day and I have a very happy and fulfilling relationship. This level of workload is routine for me- will medical school be more demanding? 😕
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So far from what you've written it's not totally clear to me that getting an MD is the best path for you. I know you mentioned being interested in the biological side of the field but you can go into that and make some very important contributions as a PhD...for example as a psychopharmacologist.
In many ways, going to medical school and going through a residency is like starting over - it's unfortunate but the general atmosphere in medicine is one in which trainees (especially medical students) are mostly expected to show up eager to absorb knowledge. When asked to contribute knowledge, it's not unique, creative thinking that's appreciated but rather established, commonly known information that's expected.
In my opinion your career trajectory seems to be leading toward a PhD - I think you would be able to accomplish what you're hoping to do by going that route. It would be a shorter path and one in which you could continue to utilize your other skills and experiences in the process.
In many ways, going to medical school and going through a residency is like starting over - it's unfortunate but the general atmosphere in medicine is one in which trainees (especially medical students) are mostly expected to show up eager to absorb knowledge. When asked to contribute knowledge, it's not unique, creative thinking that's appreciated but rather established, commonly known information that's expected.
In my opinion your career trajectory seems to be leading toward a PhD - I think you would be able to accomplish what you're hoping to do by going that route. It would be a shorter path and one in which you could continue to utilize your other skills and experiences in the process.
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Your age won't hurt you. It will be an asset if you can answer these two questions quickly, clearly and honestly: why medicine and why now? If you've got those down, your age will only help you. I applied at 35 and was accepted into programs that my numbers looked on the low side for. I was told at several places it was due to my story and interview, both of which were pretty much attributable to applying older.
Work on those two questions a bit. I think a lot of schools start getting nervous when they see a large number of past degrees in an applicant in different fields because they worry about their commitment to medicine. Be able to address it and you'll be fine.
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Be very careful about ever expressing that sentiment to medical schools. I interviewed an applicant my age who mentioned that and it was kind of a turn-off.
YOU didn't know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 22 (and neither did I). Most 22 year olds don't. But med schools carefully screen for those who do and they do a pretty fair job of finding it.
I've been pretty amazed at my classmates. They're way more centered, passionate and mature at 23 than I was (or probably am, frankly). Many med students are no different than kids who want to grow up and play in the NFL. They have a dream from a young age and make a lot of sacrifices to pursue it. Those who lack the direction and passion mostly don't get anywhere near the gridiron.
